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#1236409 - 07/24/09 10:00 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
I was badly affected by the ludicrous idea of a slack hand. It held me back for years. Once I finally got my fingers to support, it became possible to relax.... I find the most important thing is to get the kid to learn to rest on the fingers in between the notes.
Ludicrous!? If anything's ludicrous it's resting 'on the fingers'. Why not just rest on the keys, they don't seem to mind the tension.

Welcome to PW, I do hope you've done more than just watch a DVD though.
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#1236417 - 07/24/09 10:24 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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[quote/]Ludicrous!? If anything's ludicrous it's resting 'on the fingers'. Why not just rest on the keys, they don't seem to mind the tension.
[/quote]


What else did you think I was suggesting the fingers ought to be rested upon, if not the keys? This is usually the problem when kids suffer negative tensions. If they don't support by resting on the finger, they find it hard to play the following note. Playing the next note is like trying to start a sprint while standing on one leg. Once you get them to find a comfortable neutral position in between the striking of keys, the benefit quickly carry across into the following fingers.

Also, if a slack hand were not a ludicrous idea, presumably it would not be ludicrous to put a layer of foam over the keys? If there is a lot slack at that end, energy is wasted and a larger workload is hence placed on the shoulders. It's simple physics. It was the idea of keeping the hands as 'loose' as possible that screwed up my playing for years. A hand that has a lot of give in it is the eqivalent to trying to play through a foam pad.





Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 10:39 AM)
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#1236423 - 07/24/09 10:40 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
If they don't support by resting on the finger, they find it hard to playing the following note.
You rest nothing on the fingers till the moment of key depression. Even then, that's just for one particular articulation
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#1236432 - 07/24/09 10:53 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
If they don't support by resting on the finger, they find it hard to playing the following note.
You rest nothing on the fingers till the moment of key depression. Even then, that's just for one particular articulation


You misunderstand my point. Whichever finger is depressed needs to support the gravity, not fingers that are not in use. I used to think in terms of tension and release but that led to a slack, useless hand after the strike and a workload on the shoulders, rather than a balanced support at the point of contact. I actually got very tired from playing technically straightforward pieces, because I was 'holding' my arms, rather than supporting on the keys. Tensions would arise all over the place, regardless of how much I tried to relax. It wasn't that I didn't know how to feel the weight of my arm, but that fingers were not up to supporting it. The laws of moments have to add up somewhere, regardless of how much you might intend to relax.

The way I'm finding at the moment involves a very small but consistent level of tension to grip at the keys themself- rather than a sense of full release. If you line the fingers up just right, the sense of effort is so miniscule that there's not any need to 'relax' from it.

I'd strongly recommend Alan Fraser's work to anyone, although personally I see it as the missing link for arm-weight ideas, rather than as an alternative.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 10:58 AM)
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#1236437 - 07/24/09 11:06 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
You misunderstand my point. Whichever finger is depressed needs to support the gravity, ... because I was 'holding' my arms, rather than supporting on the keys. Tensions would arise all over the place, regardless of how much I tried to relax. It wasn't that I didn't know how to feel the weight of my arm, but that fingers were not up to supporting it.
Fingers have no role in supporting the arm other than during key depression. You have shoulders to do that.
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#1236456 - 07/24/09 11:37 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
You misunderstand my point. Whichever finger is depressed needs to support the gravity, ... because I was 'holding' my arms, rather than supporting on the keys. Tensions would arise all over the place, regardless of how much I tried to relax. It wasn't that I didn't know how to feel the weight of my arm, but that fingers were not up to supporting it.
Fingers have no role in supporting the arm other than during key depression. You have shoulders to do that.


Sorry, but that goes against all rational sense. The shoulders aren't going to stop your hand from going limp. That only occurs within the hand. When you use gravity in the most productive way, it helps to solidify the hand in a manner that reduces the need for muscular effort. Regardless of how you approach it, a hand with zero grip has no fuction whatsoever. Even if you choose not to exploit the return force that the keys exert against gravity, you are gripping with your hand to some extent. Otherwise you would waste most of the effort through slack fingers. You could not play a note. I think the problem is often that those who get it right feel a release but still use sufficient grip while doing so. However, for a lot of people, they end up relaxing into a point of no grip. For such people, it doesn't matter how much you try to relax- the forces cannot balance until the hand finds more stability at the key. This was certainly my problem. In your case, you may not be aware of how you continue to grip slightly with your finger, but if you did not do so, they would collapse after the strike. Regardless of which end you approach it from, stable fingers seem to be the common link in any efficient technique I've seen. How many famous pianists have fingers that notceably give way when they strike a chord?

Why would you want to physically hold your arms in the air at all times, when you can rest upon your fingers? Obviously there are times when you have to hold from the shoulder (such as in rapid staccato- but isn't there a good reason why rapid staccato is so tiring? Because the hands are never a rest surely?)? For what purpose? Why be thinking in terms of realeasing effort at the fingers, yet constantly be having to hold your arms in the air, without biving yourself a platform to balance on?


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 12:01 PM)
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#1236478 - 07/24/09 12:00 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Regardless of how you approach it, a hand with zero grip has no fuction whatsoever.
Before key depression there is no function for the hand. Function comes through use.
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#1236482 - 07/24/09 12:04 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Regardless of how you approach it, a hand with zero grip has no fuction whatsoever.
Before key depression there is no function for the hand. Function comes through use.


You are contradicting yourself. You said that the effort stops after the strike. By that logic, the function that comes through use should stop, when the strike is finished. If the shape of the fingers remains the same, there still needs to be activity. By your logic the function would be lost, if there were a full release of the effort.

This demonstrates one of two possibilities to be occuring. Either the armweight must be resting, for the keys to maintain the balance of the structure. Alternatively the hand may be gripping. Personally, I believe both are required, to find the balance.

Also, if function came solely through use, every finger would lie slack until it played the note. That simply is not true. If you look at any good pianists hand, you can see preparation in the fingers. This can only come through muscular activity.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 12:10 PM)
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#1236484 - 07/24/09 12:09 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

You are contradicting yourself. You said that the effort stops after the strike. By that logic, the function that comes through use should stop, when the strike is finished. If the shape of the fingers remains the same, there still needs to be activity. By your logic the function would be lost, if there were a full release of the effort.
Don't get your problem - you 'strike' (hate that word), and the hand goes back to its natural shape.
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#1236489 - 07/24/09 12:12 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Would you care to name any great pianists who play every note in a movement that is instantly followed by a notable slackening of the hand?
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#1236497 - 07/24/09 12:16 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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If a key doesn't need holding, don't hold it. You'll find any number of 'great pianists' doing (or I should say not doing) this.
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#1236502 - 07/24/09 12:20 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Sure, but when a key DOES need holding (as it so often does)? Where are these slackening movements in the greatest players? You really don't see a lot. I was really skeptical of Alan fraser's book at first, but since I read it, it's fair to say that virtually every great pianist I've seen has a notably solid (yet controlled) arch to their knuckles. When the balance is there in the hand, there's hardly any need to ease after the strike. I think this is the key to young pianists with tense arms. They're compensating for not having found this balance. I'm convinced that one the balance is found, slackening movement have little purpose. In any case, they don't do anything to stop overly tense movements occurring. They are merely a short term solution.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 12:21 PM)
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#1236505 - 07/24/09 12:22 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Not a great player, but a good illustration of relaxing between chords.
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#1236514 - 07/24/09 12:31 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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No offence to the pianist, but I asked where do we see it in great players? You can see why he needs to move his arms a lot, because he isn't balancing on the keys. It's a classic example of needing to make big movements to free up the tensions that are caused by the fact that his arms are not being supported. The muscles are seizing up due to lack of neutral balance points.

His relaxation movements are a mere short-term fix. The real problem lies in the reason why he needs these emergency measures. Sorry, but there's a reason I asked where we see it in great players (just as there's a reason why he doesn't control his sounds like a great player).

If you want to see somethign really terrible, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTs3wsirpNo

It's how I used to move, before I started working on balance at the keys. It's a really ugly way of moving (and ironically, very tiring despite the ease of the piece and the 'relaxed' hand)


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 12:48 PM)
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#1236583 - 07/24/09 02:04 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

If you want to see somethign really terrible, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTs3wsirpNo
No pleasing some people.
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#1236585 - 07/24/09 02:06 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
No offence to the pianist, but I asked where do we see it in great players? You can see why he needs to move his arms a lot, because he isn't balancing on the keys.
Actually, one of Alan's teachers taught me that.
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#1236654 - 07/24/09 03:53 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: AZNpiano]
William Clark Offline
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Posts: 93
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
I observed this exercise at a master class:

Take both hands, raise them a foot above the keys, and just let the hands fall freely onto the keys. Repeat several times until the student is completely free of tension. Let gravity do all the work. Then, gradually let the free fall land on specific fingers and notes.


I employ the same exercise. Another technique is to play scales (or a repetitive figure similar to Hannon) in common time as sixteenth notes. Let the wrists fall while playing on each beat. While working up to the next beat, allow the wrists to slowly raise again. This way, the wrists are in constant motion and never get a chance to "lock." Once the student gets the feel, the same technique can be used with any piece. Sometimes tension is required; however, it should be relaxed as soon as possible.


Edited by William Clark (07/24/09 03:54 PM)
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#1236857 - 07/24/09 09:23 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
No offence to the pianist, but I asked where do we see it in great players? You can see why he needs to move his arms a lot, because he isn't balancing on the keys.
Actually, one of Alan's teachers taught me that.


Which one? I don't believe that Alan learned his approach from teachers, but from studying how great pianists move (with his in depth knowledge of the human body in mind). Having relied on the relaxation movements for years (because it was either use them or be massively tense) I was very skeptical of the idea of throwing them out. However, since I learned to balance on the keys, I've learned a way that rarely requires such emergency fixes. I don't see it as movement that is not be used but if it frequently MUST be used to return to comfort, I see that as a major warning sign- not a solution. Whenever it's happening, I usually discover points where my hand is not settling properly and my upper body has to compensate with effort. If improve those points, the necessity goes away (along with the unproductive tensions).

As I say, no offence intended, but if that's you playing, do you get shoulder ache much? I see a lot of muscles being worked very hard, when simply learning to rest on the keys would remove that extensive workload upon the upper body.

If someone came and played that way in a lesson, the first thing I'd do personally would be to drop their palm on the keys and demonstrate the amount of pressure that occurs without effort. One you've learned what it's like to be truly at rest on the keyboard (rather than with arms held so stiffly in the air) you could start to remove some of the negative tensions that are causing limitations. However, as long your hand goes slack after every chord, you have no means of achieving a balanced whole except through extensive upper body tensions. I'd really recommend trying to learn that same feeling of support while resting on a chord. Once your fingers can support it's really far less effort than what you are putting your arms through.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 09:38 PM)
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#1236863 - 07/24/09 09:33 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

If you want to see somethign really terrible, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTs3wsirpNo
No pleasing some people.


Well, I'm not vastly ashamed of the sound, but the movements were uncomfortable and did not provide ease of control. The slack hand made the whole thing a big effort, when the same results could have been achieved with comfort. Should I have been pleased with moving in a way that felt physically uncomfortable and led to frequent shoulder pains (supposedly in the name of achieving plenty of 'relaxation')?

The way I see it, the old fashioned finger school has many flaws and sometimes led to injury. However, the relax everything as much as you can school cause just as many problems, unless the hand learns to operate in sync. Sadly, this now widley being left to either work by mere fluke or to not work at all. There needs to be a middle ground, based on understanding of what tensions are productive when done within a comfortable limit. I've lost count of the number of people I've heard of who went through the 'relax everything' (including the hands) approach, and who injured their shoulders or neck- no matter how many times they dropped onto the keyboard. I do believe thoroughly in the dropping school of thought, but when a slack hand is promoted that can be as dangerous as an uncontrollably locked hand.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/24/09 10:34 PM)
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#1236985 - 07/25/09 05:38 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

As I say, no offence intended, but if that's you playing, do you get shoulder ache much? I see a lot of muscles being worked very hard, when simply learning to rest on the keys would remove that extensive workload upon the upper body.
You see what you want to see. And if that's you playing you've gone from one extreme to another. Resting on the keys is fine, it's resting on the fingers that is full of tension. Don't think you can take away tension by adding it! I shan't comment on Alan's knowledge or experience, needless to say anyone can write a book on piano playing.

Having just visited http://www.pianotechnique.net/ I see where all this is coming from. Here's the only sensible comment I could find:
Quote:
He never speaks about the hand’s arches, generators of pianistic potency, and yet if you study practitioners of his methods closely you will see that that hand’s arches manifest themselves naturally, automatically, when they are needed while remaining absent (the dead fish limp hand) the rest of the time.
this is on Peter Feuchtwanger. The rest is pretty much uninformed verbose junk. You certainly can't fault his self promotion! Personally I find it quite obnoxious.


Edited by keyboardklutz (07/25/09 06:36 AM)
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#1237011 - 07/25/09 08:50 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

As I say, no offence intended, but if that's you playing, do you get shoulder ache much? I see a lot of muscles being worked very hard, when simply learning to rest on the keys would remove that extensive workload upon the upper body.
You see what you want to see. And if that's you playing you've gone from one extreme to another. Resting on the keys is fine, it's resting on the fingers that is full of tension. Don't think you can take away tension by adding it! I shan't comment on Alan's knowledge or experience, needless to say anyone can write a book on piano playing.

Having just visited http://www.pianotechnique.net/ I see where all this is coming from. Here's the only sensible comment I could find:
Quote:
He never speaks about the hand’s arches, generators of pianistic potency, and yet if you study practitioners of his methods closely you will see that that hand’s arches manifest themselves naturally, automatically, when they are needed while remaining absent (the dead fish limp hand) the rest of the time.
this is on Peter Feuchtwanger. The rest is pretty much uninformed verbose junk. You certainly can't fault his self promotion! Personally I find it quite obnoxious.


As obnoxious as dismissing a guy as being 'uninformed' after reading a few words on the internet? Surely not?

As long as you refuse to question the doctrine that all relaxation is constructive, you will limit yourself (and have tense arms). Have you wondered why those who slouch at all times get back pains, or considered the fact that a healthy posture comes from utilising the muscles in the lower back? That is an example of healthy muscle tension. The harmful process of slouching is caused by limp muscles, offloading their workload and producing strain elsewhere.

The point about Feuchtwagner is highly insightful. Look at Carola Grindea's hand and you see a hugely solid arch. If flopping around doesn't chance upon that, no amount of relaxing will produce adequate function.
You really missed his point. He's neither criticisng nor promoting Feuchtwanger's relaxation. He's pointing out the simple fact that the approach does not work unless the arch forms. If you don't get it by luck, you don't get the function.. For those who do not find it by fate, they need to LEARN a way of finding it. Otherwise other muscles will tense to compensate. There are different ways of playing, but I'm afraid that the same laws of physics apply to all of us. If you were willing to question the relax-all doctrine and work on providing basic support to your hand, you could easily take those collosal tension out of your forearms and shoulders. I didn't believe a word of it, but when I opened my mind, it removed the tensions that years of flopping around did nothing to fix.

Incidentally, I don't play with a very tense hand at all and Alan Frase does not encourage extreme tensions anywhere. I've simply discovered that it's possible to make progress if I learn to balance it securely (via a few simple exercises), rather than flop it around every time my arms seize up (which they have since stopped doing for the first time).

PS The fact that you didn't answer my question about whether your 'holding' method results in shoulder ache seems to have answered it for me. Can you play for a few continuous hours without getting tired? Isn't worth asking a few rationally orientated questions, rather than assuming that anything that sounds different is 'uninformed'?


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/25/09 09:31 AM)
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#1237054 - 07/25/09 11:40 AM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

As obnoxious as dismissing a guy as being 'uninformed' after reading a few words on the internet? Surely not?
No, dismissed after a couple of workshops, a private lesson, the book and the video! Don't say I don't do my homework.
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#1237074 - 07/25/09 12:10 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

As obnoxious as dismissing a guy as being 'uninformed' after reading a few words on the internet? Surely not?
No, dismissed after a couple of workshops, a private lesson, the book and the video! Don't say I don't do my homework.


Well, it may not have worked for you, but it certainly isn't uninformed. Your argument seems to boil down to this: the (frankly miniscule) tension that is required for the hand to rest on the keys is inherently bad, but tension further back in the arm and shoulders (which is the only scientifically possible alternative, when gravity is not supported by the fingers) is fine. If Alan Fraser's idea of seeking the stable hand (that can be seen in virtually every accomplished pianist) is uninformed, could you please give us your own (presumably) informed explanation of why your alternately tense and slack fingers are more productive? You haven't offerred any other explanations as to why resting on the fingers should not be desirable- although you own video demonstrates both how poorly settled the collapsing hand method of playing is, and just how much tension it puts into your arms within even slow chords. Sorry, but I'm really struggling to see any evident justification to your arguments (other than the fact that it's what you're used to doing). It's also notable that you haven't even tried to refute the most pertinent points I've made here. Does your approach allow you to play continuously for a few hours without pain? If not, how can you even keep a straight face when claiming that your locked upper body is preferable to that which puts the hands through the tiny of effort of resting weight on the fingers (an effort which, once mastered, is scarcely more than the 'effort' of resting your hand on a table top)? Frankly it's comical.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/25/09 12:41 PM)
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#1237083 - 07/25/09 12:30 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi


Well, it may not have worked for you, but it certainly isn't uninformed. Your argument seems to boil down to this: the (frankly miniscule) tension that is required for the hand to rest on the keys is inherently bad, but tension further back in the arm and shoulders (which is the only scientifically possible alternative, when gravity is not supported by the fingers) is fine.
Your notion that having the shoulders resting on the spine and arms hanging loose from the shoulders is tension is somewhat specious. Add to that the fingers/hand resting on the surface of the keys and you have the beginnings of a tension free technique. You cannot just add tension to the fingers, tension will occur all the way along the arms and come down to the center of the body. If you've ever played with no tension you'd feel that instantly.

Besides, even your chief is happy with Peter Feuchtwanger so I don't see your argument.
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#1237089 - 07/25/09 12:46 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi


Well, it may not have worked for you, but it certainly isn't uninformed. Your argument seems to boil down to this: the (frankly miniscule) tension that is required for the hand to rest on the keys is inherently bad, but tension further back in the arm and shoulders (which is the only scientifically possible alternative, when gravity is not supported by the fingers) is fine.
Your notion that having the shoulders resting on the spine and arms hanging loose from the shoulders is tension is somewhat specious. Add to that the fingers/hand resting on the surface of the keys and you have the beginnings of a tension free technique. You cannot just add tension to the fingers, tension will occur all the way along the arms and come down to the center of the body. If you've ever played with no tension you'd feel that instantly.

Besides, even your chief is happy with Peter Feuchtwanger so I don't see your argument.


Well, I'm increasingly seeing how littler point there is in arguing with someone who is not willing to consider new possibilities but let's make it simple. The problem is not with Feuchtwanger. His arch works. The stable hand makes it wor. You however, DO NOT have a stable hand, so you have tensions elsewhere. Physics dictates that gravity has to be supported SOMEWHERE. If it does not happen at the keys, it happens in the upper body. I didn't say that the shoulder shouldn't hang lose- quite the opposite. I said that if the hand is not supportive the shoulder CANNOT truly hang lose. It's not possible, because the forces will not balance. Do you play with your forearm pointing directly down? There are only two things that can keep it parallel- either the force that the keys return when you rest on them- or muscuar effort to hold the elbow or shoulder rigid. Otherwise you would fall off the keys. I'm afraid that you're subject to same laws of science that everyone else is, whether you like it or not. What I'm saying is that in no sense are your shoulders free in that film and in no sense CAN they be if you do not support at the key.


How long can you hold your arms out in front of you for without getting tired (not resting them on anything)? A few hours at a time perhaps? Without your shoulders feeling any discomfort? Really? Conversely, how 'tired' or tense do you get when resting your hand on a tabletop? Which accumulates the most most uncomfortable tension?

It really pays to use a small amount of rational thought.

Incidentally, if I'd ever played with no tension I would have broken all the laws of physics. However, since I began to balance my hand I have started to play with less upper body tension than ever before. Anyone with a slack hand can easily learn to do the easily do the same, (although, sadly, the procedure of opening your mind is apparently vastly more difficult than the simple process of learning to remove the workload with a comfortably supportive hand).


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/25/09 01:11 PM)
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#1237103 - 07/25/09 01:11 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Conversely, how 'tired' or tense do you get when resting your hand on a tabletop?
So, ' Which accumulates the most most uncomfortable tension?' resting your hand on a table top or supporting your hand on your fingers on a table top? No brainer.
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#1237113 - 07/25/09 01:28 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Conversely, how 'tired' or tense do you get when resting your hand on a tabletop?
So, ' Which accumulates the most most uncomfortable tension?' resting your hand on a table top or supporting your hand on your fingers on a table top? No brainer.


Seeing as you've obviously never employed such muscles, I'm sure you do get tired. Personally, the difference is now negligible- whether I form an arch like that which is used by virtually every pianist of competence or slop my hand down on the palm. I could rest either way for ages without fatigue. No problem at all. If you stopped to try it for the first time, maybe it wouldn't be so difficult before long? Perhaps you could even learn to hold chords in pieces of modest difficulty without having to constantly release through fatigue?

What really screws things up is holding my hands out in front of my body unsupported. It places a huge workload on the muscles and becomes faintly tiring within mere minutes.

If you think that is a natural way to use your shoulders for a hours on end (or that they are 'relaxed' when having to supporting the weight of your arms at this angle!) you're really not kidding anyone but yourself. Sadly the laws of physics don't seem concerned with whether you understand them or not. They still apply.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/25/09 01:31 PM)
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#1237115 - 07/25/09 01:32 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Conversely, how 'tired' or tense do you get when resting your hand on a tabletop?
So, ' Which accumulates the most most uncomfortable tension?' resting your hand on a table top or supporting your hand on your fingers on a table top? No brainer.


Seeing as you've obviously never employed such muscles, I'm sure you do get tired. Personally, the difference is negligible- whether I form an arch like that which is used by virtually every pianist of competence or slop my hand down on the palm. I could rest either way for ages without fatigue.
Each to his own, but I know which accumulates the most tension for me and I shall avoid it and recommend others to.
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#1237183 - 07/25/09 03:35 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
You may think that you know what accumulates the least tension, but the laws of physics beg to differ. Seeing as you've neither learned to balance on your hand nor understood the most basic rules of the universe I am afraid your opinion is simply- what was the word you used again? 'Uninformed', I believe.

The law of moments defines that if you do not support the lever that extends from your elbow at the finger, you require substantially greater tensions to stabilize near to the pivot point. To put that in layman's terms, if you're not resting on the keys at the finger, you're locking your elbow and or shoulder with far greater tensions. That is a scientific fact and not an opinion. If you don't stabilise on the key, the only thing that prevents your hand from falling off the keys is a locked shoulder and/or elbow.

If you're happy to teach a system that is based on a method that necessitates profound tension in the elbow joint (while simultaneously preaching the importance of relaxation in such joints- in square contradiction to the ironic fact that your approach makes a relaxed elbow and shoulder a scientific impossibility), then I certainly admire your willingness to persist in the face of all reason. I'm just amazed that you feel a method that does not even permit you to find comfort on a series of slow chords acutally 'works'- or that it might seriously be recommended to anyone else.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (07/25/09 03:57 PM)
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#1237260 - 07/25/09 05:44 PM Re: Tense hands in beginners. What's the trick? [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
You have little idea of physiology. The biceps hold up the forearm. The wrist extensors/flexors utilize the hand. There's no 'locking'. Come back when you (and Alan) know what you're talking about. I'll stick to Peter Feuchtwanger. Goodbye.
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