Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Some advice on hiring a piano technician

I do not consider bashing a post made by the Piano World's Founder as answering the question.

I think the best one can do, if one doesn't know a good piano technician, is to search in the PTG list for an RPT.

And I am not biased by being an RPT myself.

I wish there was a PTG Chapter in Mexico City.

Yes, please.

So what does one do in Mexico City Rafael, ask around from pianists and such for a referral, or just look in the yellow pages of the phone book? Are there techs that travel over to the US (or possibly other parts of Mexico) to get their RPT status and then go back to the big city?

It just may happen that a PTG Chapter will soon be established in Mexico City and you can be sure that I will have a role in its establishment. It has been a goal of mine since 1990. It is about time it may finally come to fruition.

Emmery's question was not addressed to me, but I think I can tell something about how things work in a smaller city in northern Mexico.

I hope Rafael will tell us more about the DF.

Sorry for the long, unsolicited rant, but I think it could help putting some things in perspective.

In Mexico, people in general are clueless about pianos, piano teachers aren't doing much better in the hardware department.

Not many new pianos are sold, and apparently it was more common in the past to own or play a piano. Things have gotten a little better in this place during the last 10 years, because a growing number of people who take lessons at better schools (in this city, and perhaps some others, I'd dare say most of the country is doing worse).

Most of the piano for sale ads I see (which are few and far between) make me sad. Based on those, I'd say most pianos here are junk.

I've heard of people calling to the school where I teach to ask for a number to get a piano tuner. All the musicians who play at the orchestras or study in a music school know each other, and they know the 2 tuners most people know.

Speaking of orchestras... A pianist friend told me he was going to play a concerto at another city, and the piano was horribly out of tune (he can tell when a piano is not in good shape). He complained about that, and was told the piano had just been tuned. The tooner approached him and checked A4 with an electronic device (I don't know of what kind) and said "see? 440, this piano is in tune". The pianist asked him "what about this octaves? and what about this chords, it's a mess". The tooner showed him again the device... 440, all 3 strings... his work was done.

Piano teachers will tell their few students about those 2 tuners (or tell them about the one they use). For what I've seen, most piano teachers have pianos in bad conditions.

For the few churches and grade schools with pianos... The people who play/teach there know of these 2 guys, and probably work at one of the orchestras or are related in some way to one or more of the music schools. The same for the very few restaurants with pianos. It's a very small ecosystem here.

I just checked the yellow pages and there is just one piano tuner listed. That's new, there were no techs listed years ago. This guy lives in a city about 70 miles from here. I understand he started with the Randy Potter course and WAS a PTG associate (he doesn't seem to be anymore). I've heard good things about his work, he does tuning, regulation, installs humidity control systems and refinishes pianos. I guess he is trying to expand his market, but to be honest there's no market to get here. I think the other two I mentioned have more clients because they live here and have worked for several years (both are part time tuners).

One of these guys is the local Yamaha tech (self-taught). For what I have seen, he is not up to the level of the average tech visiting this forums. His tunings are improving, and can do some repairs, but that's all. He's one of the busiest persons I know, because he works in MANY different things, pretty much at the same time.

The other guy is older, and the last time I saw him, he was using a very old strobe. He is one of the pluckers (by the way, I think I might have traced the pluckers heritage back to one guy, who died about 20-30 years ago).

I've heard some people say these two guys are real top notch professionals. Sadly, I don't agree. I think they do the best they can, but can't see beyond their nose.

There are a lot of quacks.

I was approached the other day by a guy who teaches at the same school where I work. He says he tunes pianos.

He asked me how to extract a box of cigarettes that was swallowed by a hungry grand piano.

At first, I didn't want to tell him. I was seriously worried about what he could do (yes, now I know how you techs feel when people ask for instructions to mess with their pianos). Why didn't I want to tell him?

He mentioned the piano was an S&S of middle size, recently rebuilt. The piano was at one of the most expensive restaurants in town, owned by some of the richest people here.

This guy asked how difficult it would be, because he had just tuned it and didn't want to get in trouble with this piano. He said he tuned it a couple times but it will need some more tunings to hold... he plucks, and uses a guitar tuner... and swears it works great. He says he found a nick in a couple strings, and a bad temporary repair in a shank (he actually had a hard time explaining what he found). Since he can't fix things, he didn't want to get in trouble.

I politely tried to tell him he should not attempt to do piano work if he didn't know what he was doing.

I showed him how to remove a fallboard, and he was surprised. He told me he knew how to replace strings, and had welded a harp. However, he is affraid of tuning a piano because he won't be able to replace a string if it breaks, and won't touch an action because, unlike tuning, it's very specialized work. He had never heard of voicing, and thinks aural tuners are all quacks, because it's impossible to precisely tune a piano by ear. Oh yes, he though he had to remove strings to repair a shank.

He taught his piano students they could do some kind of "vibrato" on the piano by moving his wrist. I know because one of their students started taking lessons with me, and I immediately told her it was nonsense. I opened the piano and showed her why that was impossible, and then sent her a video of a clavichord performance where bebung was used.

Now, THAT guy told me he had seen all kind of QUACKS doing piano work. I had a very hard time trying not to laugh. He told me all kind of terror stories: people using vice grips to tune, about pianos so rusty they seemed to be part of a coral reef, all kind of weird repairs.

People have asked me to work on their pianos. I've told some of them I'm nowhere close to ready to do that, I've helped some evaluate their situation, though. I've told some people about some details to take care of when inspecting a piano, etc.

I have been too busy getting in other kinds of trouble, I've read a lot about piano work, but I know what I can't do without the practical knowledge. I seriously need to start doing instead of keep reading.

I told the school's principal about some problems with the pianos. Maybe it's me, but I think a 2 years old grand should not have rusty strings. Maybe it's me, but I think a 10 year old piano (under 12 hours a day of institutional use) needs some work done on the hammers and action. The principal told our tech about that, but I don't know if it's a money problem or a knowledge problem.

He said he'd check what could be done about the rust and what could have caused that. It's been 2 years now since I reported that. The last time I played that piano, I saw a perpendicular crack in the treble bridge. I took some temp/humidity measurements, it was saddening, really.

I have heard of some techs living in the north of the country, who travel to the states for PTG meetings (but I don't actually know of any case first hand). I have also heard of techs from the US coming to Mexico when needed. Not all techs in Mexico are quacks, I've been told there are real technicians in the centre and south of the country.

I don't intend to become a technician, but I don't want to be one of those ignorant quacks. I still haven't found the time to put my ass to work and start doing practical piano work instead of reading about it. Perhaps I am losing my motivation, I don't know... But it's very sad to see how things are here.

I understand Rafael became a technician because he wasn't satisfied with what the techs could offer him. He took the Potter course and started working.

I think PTG presence could be a very good thing for us in Mexico. Some PTG members have tried to improve things in Mexico in the past, I really appreciate their efforts. I would certainly like to help Bill with this project.

It'd also be lovely to have some decent piano technology programmes (as far as I know there's none). However, that will take time.

I wanted to attend to last week's convention. But the depreciation of our currency, and some personal/work issues just didn't allow me.

Peace my brothers....we'll all get there together if we listen to, respect and regard each other as all having high motives and ideals.

There is not one person I've encountered here who would intentionally offer bad or careless work...regardless of training or background.

Lets deep breath and let this old tired argument submurge again...

RPD

Erus is right.

In 2006 I bought my piano, a Petrof studio. I have it tuned four times by different tuners and I was not satisfied of their work so I decided to learn to tune myself. After a few unsuccessfull tries with Internet courses and reading some books I decided to take Randy Potter's course and I also bought the Verituner Pocket PC. I bought a practice piano, a Melodygrand console and I began to tune my two pianos.

When I was satisfied with my tunings I began to tune for my relatifs and friends for free. And when I felt confident I could do a decent work I began to offer my services as a tuner for pay. Now, I tune for a living. I have also learned some repairs and regulation.

At first I tuned using the Verituner, now I tune by ear, thanks to Bill Bremmer's articles and teachings in this forum. Although I still use the Verituner for pitch raises.

Now I know more of the tuning business and I know several good tuners in Mexico City. But they all are self taught or part of a family tradition. They make good tunings but they don't tune ET. They believe they are tuning ET but in fact they tune Well temperaments based on fifths sequences. They don't use ETDs.

When one wants to contact a good piano tuner one must ask a piano teacher or a pianist-friend for a referal.

There is no one single school of piano technology. There is no association like PTG, there are no appreticeships. The only way to learn to tune is by taking a correspondance course or going to another country to study.

I know no mexican RPTs. And I believe for me it is not a big deal to join the PTG as I can not assist to the meetings and nobody here knows what an RPT is.

Recently I was in contact with the manager of the service department of Yamaha de Mexico. He invited me to take the Yamaha course. Until last year the course was given by japanese technicians but they are not coming this year to Mexico because they complain that every year they have to start from zero because there is no continuity with the people taking the course.

They want to form tuners to service their pianos with the support of Yamaha de Mexico, but apparently they don't find eligible candidates.

They use an ETD developped by Yamaha and the people taking the course is "invited" to buy the software at a reduced price. Business are business.

I am very interested in taking this course but they have had no enough quorum until now.

You should contact the other tuners in your area and see if you could just get together to talk. Perhaps something could come out of it.

I've tried several times to work with other tuners/technicians but until now it did not worked.

They are too jealous and I feel like they fear me as if I wanted to put them out of business.

As far as I know there are no RPTs living in Mexico, but there are some of mexican origin who live in the US. I know of one tech from Oaxaca who is on pianotech's list.

Many years ago when I started playing, a tuner offered to teach me (for a reasonable fee) and buy tools for me. I was young then, and lost track of him. He assured me he had some training at the S&S factory in NY, and had met/been tested by Franz Mohr. If I remember correctly, he didn't use a 5ths based sequence (I can't say if that's common or not). For what I recall, it could have started just like the Defebaugh F-F sequence. He was an aural tuner and believed ETD's were useless.

What I've heard in local pianos doesn't match the description of ET. Sounds acceptable (in some cases), but it is not ET. These people have no theory knowledge of tuning.

I've heard of several people here who toone their pianos. They are all pluckers and use guitar tuners, and use no mutes at all. They were "taught" by the old guy with the strobe.

I found this organization (which I don't know anything about) on the PTG's website:

Mexican Association of Piano Tuners
President: Francisco Chavez-Silva
Lago Constanza, No. 150
Colonia Anahuac, C.P.
DF 11320
Mexico

Rafael, do you know anything about them?

Since there are no chapters in Mexico, it makes no sense to join the PTG right now. Flying for meetings could get expensive, it could be easier for people living in the border, but for us that are not within what is considered the border, it's more complicated.

Many are part time, perhaps occasional tuners. In that case, it is not a reasonable investment to attend conventions or look to attend to a formal training programme in the US, Canada, or Europe. Even for a full time tech, it would be expensive and I am not sure the market could justify such investment. If I had the money, I'd enrol at a piano tech school, among other things, but that's not the case.

To be honest, I think there's no external pressure/motivation here for tuners to really improve. There aren't that many pianos, there aren't that many good schools, there's no piano tradition, the market is small, people can't pay much, people don't know much...

Of course some people care about what they do, but I think it's for personal reasons. Rafael is interested in that Yamaha course, and maybe one of the locals is interested too, but there are many quacks who wouldn't care to invest in it at all. Apparently Yamaha is having trouble to find people.

I contacted Yamaha to get their materials on grand piano regulation, and they told me they didn't offer those, but mentioned that course (didn't give me any details). Apparently they are looking for people with field experience, and not beginners. At least that's the impression I got from the questionnaire they sent to me. It sounded like the training programmes offered by software vendors (which is not my kind of thing, I think that model is offensive and can tell you it has harmed the computer industry).

As Rafael mentioned, the RPT title would not mean anything here to most people. If a mexican tech wants to become an RPT, it'd have to be for personal reasons, as a way to try to improve. Which I think is the best reason to do ANYTHING. But it is an investment, and for many, it's unjustified.

For some in these forums the RPT standards aren't high enough (I am not qualified to discuss that), but trust me, there's no way the tuners I know would pass it (not even the tuning section).

The situation is very different here, so please don't continue this train of thought if talking about the RPT vs non-RPT in the US discussion.

For me, trying to get the local techs together wouldn't be an option. All of them do this part time, and VERY busy in their other activities. Also, I don't think they would be interested. I'd be worried about a blind guiding another.

I think that idea could have better chances in the centre of the country.

I know there was an attempt to start a piano tech programme at UNAM, but once the RPT who started it got back to the US, the people who had taken classes just disbanded. I understand that also happened with the efforts of other RPTs.

I don't understand why there's a luthiers programme at UNAM and not a piano tech one.

I thought about starting an internet community for mexican (or maybe spanish speaking) tuners and techs (terminology would be a very big problem, for starters). I think I mentioned this idea to Rafael, but I got involved in some other things and just put the idea on hold. Such a community could at least help people getting together, people who could be interested, and then it could be easier to start from there.

It's hard for us to get resources (specially if you can't read english), so I was thinking about translating some of the info I've found, and start a forum like this or something. I don't know if the techs might be interested, but I am sure it would help the wannabes and beginners. So far the only thing I've found in spanish is quacks, and one guy in Argentina who has something very similar to the Potter course (but doesn't look as complete). It looks like all the spanish speaking tuners and techs are self taught.

I am sure this looks like cave age madness to many of you, but that's how things are.

No, I don't but I can check if they still exist. Don't you have their phone number?

I don't have a phone number.

I was searching for the president, and found a person with that very same name who is now an RPT in Austin. If both are the same person, I suppose there's no organization left.

I have just emailed him, let's see what I find out.

Francisco Chavez-Silva who prefers to be called "Paco" was one of the people I met 20 years ago at the conferences which were held in Mexico City. At that time, Ramon Ramirez RPT (from Michigan but who is of Mexican descent) was teaching piano tuning in Mexico City and he continued for several years after that. He now lives in Austin, TX.

At that time, Danny Boone RPT (now deceased but who wrote excellent material for grand action preparation and regulation)was interested in forming a Mexico City Chapter. It seemed to be a possibility at that time. There was an excellent technician at the university. We set up a Master tuning and gave exams. An American woman who was living in Mexico City took the exams and became an RPT. She now lives in Portland, OR.

There were many attendees at the conference of differing skill levels. One of the first things they did was to have a nomenclature session because people had varying names for different parts of the piano. Although everyone spoke Spanish, they often had difficulty communicating with each other because they used different terminology. The terms offered in the book called "Nomenclature" which offered translations in six languages including Castillian Spanish were often laughed at because they were about as foreign sounding as English. Indeed, many Mexican technicians had learned some American English nomenclature and used those words.

Ultimately, there was not enough interest in forming a PTG Chapter. Some of it was for the reasons Rafael stated. There was professional jealousy. Those who knew more did not want to share for fear of competition. The local piano stores were patently against the idea. They did not want tools and supplies to be brought to Mexico City for sale at the prices technicians can buy them here. They wanted to be the sole source. Anyone could buy anything the wanted from supply house catalogs but the piano stores wanted to make a profit from that. They said that forming an organization would create problems, not solve them.

I was invited to the home of a wealthy attorney to service his Hamburg Steinway model O. It was a beautiful home, filled with art treasures. The piano was in a pitiful state, however. I worked 8 hours on it over a two day period. The attorney paid me with a check in US dollars from a bank in Beverly Hills, CA.

When I finished working on the piano, it sounded and played so beautifully that he was overcome with emotion. From my point of view, I had only done what I considered to be basic piano technology. There had been a spill in the piano. With the action removed, I was able to clean the residue which had ruined the tone in that area of the piano with some anhydrous alcohol that the man had procured for me. He had been told it would have to be restrung but no one had offered to do that.

He asked me to speak to the local Steinway dealer about what I had done. I told the dealer that all I had done were what I considered to be the very simplest procedures. The spill had softened the hammers and left sticky residue on the strings. I cleaned the strings and reshaped the hammers. The tome was still too soft but I was able to restore it by procuring some acetone in which I dissolved a plastic flange I happened to have with me. It did the trick.

I reshaped the hammers, aligned them, tightened the screws, set a hammer line, let off, drop, jack positions and springs. I touched up the key level and dip. I tuned the piano to pitch in a mild well temperament that was a precursor to my present EBVT. When I spoke to the Steinway dealer, I asked why there could not have been a local technician who could have done the very same things. His answer was that no one in the city that he knew of had that kind of knowledge and skill. He said that most technicians were afraid to try to remove the action or do anything with it. The only person he knew of that could do those things was the American woman who lived there at that time and the university technician.

From what I have read and already know about conditions in Mexico, the conditions in the USA were more like that when I first started learning piano technology 40 years ago. When I relocated to Madison, WI in 1976, there was a newly formed Madison Chapter. When I tried to join it in 1978, they were reluctant to let me. No one wanted to share any knowledge. I was told that I shouldn't be in the business unless I went to a school for piano technology or had some kind of formal training, not just the correspondence course I had learned from (whose name I won't mention).

I attended my first PTG convention 30 years ago in July, 1979 in Minneapolis. The tuning class I attended was teaching contiguous M3s. I didn't understand it at the time but I did manage to improve my 4ths & 5ths tuning well enough to qualify as an examiner trainee just three years later. No one would help me. I had to do it all myself. Fortunately, PTG seminars and the Journal were enough for me to get the knowledge I needed because I continued to receive only scorn from other local technicians.

That has all changed now. Anyone who wants help gets it and I had to work hard to be a part of making that happen locally. In 1979, the Chapter had only 5 or 6 RPTs but now there are 18; more than at any time in the past. There are 3 Associates, one of whom is highly qualified and will take the exams in due course. The other two are part timers but who express the intention to eventually take the exams. All of the other tuners there were 30 years ago who scorned and mocked PTG are now out of business. All of them. There are a handful of tuners in the area who are not PTG members who do not work full time and have very little business. I could add some comments to the above but as it is, those are the facts.

I believe that the piano service profession in the USA and Canada would be far more like it is in Mexico today had it not been for PTG. Yes, there is a significantly different culture in Mexico of which the piano does not hold the same importance as it does in the rest of North America. However, there are concert halls, music schools, hotels, restaurants and wealthier people who do have pianos.

There are poor areas in North America as well, to be sure. I chose to remain in Madison after graduate school because it is a very nice place to live and approximately 1 in 10 homes have a piano in them. In the nicer neighborhoods, 1 in 5. If I travel west from here only about an hour, the situation is far different. It is much more like what Erus and Rafael describe and there are no PTG members. No one could make a living there as a full time piano technician.

One of the big differences there is now from what there was 20 years ago is the ability to have audio and/or visual communication conferences via computer and such messenger services as Yahoo messenger, MSN messenger and Skype. I have already helped countless individuals in the USA via that technology. There is no reason why it cannot also happen across the boarder into Mexico.

PTG is working to compile a library of visual instruction material which virtually anyone, anywhere in the world will eventually be able to access. But for the time being, Erus, I can help you learn what you want to learn by such means. All you have to do is set up the equipment and the piano, be sure that I can see and hear you and that you can hear me and we can take it from there. You can also invite anyone else who may be interested. You can help me learn to teach piano tuning and other technology just as well in Spanish as I can in English.

I believe that it is possible to improve the substandard conditions in Mexico. Where there is the will, there is a way.

Bill,

I'm wondering if I met Francisco when my wife, Jean and I were living in Mexico for about 6 months back in 1994. We were living in Xalapa Veracruz and I had been studying piano tuning with Mitch Kiel for about a year or so prior to our trip. We were on a tour of the famous Anthropological Museum when I hear in the distance the distinct sound of a piano being tuned!

I followed the sound and found a man tuning a piano in a recital hall. I stood behind him and watched for a while. He finally paused and turned around. Between my broken Spanish and his broken English we managed to have a nice chat! I learned that the Spanish verb to tune is afinar - the same verb that also means "to sharpen" which I thought was interesting.

I was very surprised when he showed me his card and he was a Registered Piano Technician! I'm not sure I can remember his name but it very well may have been Francisco. I can't think there were very many guild members in Mexico at the time. He was doing piano work for the University of Veracruz. They had all sorts of intense humidity related problems there. I don't believe he is a guild member anymore - at least I haven't seen him in the directory. Sandy at the home office may have a record somewhere.

Ryan:

Afinar is indeed the word we use, however, it doesn't mean to sharpen, that would be afilar, with an l instead of an n.

The word comes from "fino", which means fine, delicate, refined, subtle.

So, afinar can mean "to refine", "to perfect".

Afilar comes from "filo", which means edge. So, afilar means to create an edge or fine point.

Bill:

The skype idea sounds indeed interesting. I thought the audio quality could be a problem, but if you think it could work, it's an interesting alternative

I have had similar experiences to what you mention about people not wanting competition or tools/materials easily accessible. Believe it or not, a similar thing happened with sheet music and classical music recordings here. In the last years, the internet has ended that madness.

I think the woman you mention is Linda Scott. She tried to start a piano tech programme at UNAM, but once she left, the project was finished and people disbanded.

We seriously need proper uni education in this area, too. I think that could help us fight the mob mentality we have described.

The problem is there's not a market for this in most cities. If graduates would also be interested in performance, or become scholars or teachers, it could work just like for most art graduates (not an easy life in Mexico). But if they want to be full time field technicians, concert techs, or rebuilders, it could get uglier.

Erus, yes it was Linda but I thought better of mentioning her name. She was also a student of Owen Jorgensen who at the convention, received PTG's highest honor, the Golden Hammer Award. Owen has helped me immensely to create not only a workable description of how to tune the EBVT but also the ET via Marpurg. He said that he is now composing music which is intended to be played on a piano tuned in 1/4 Comma Meantone. For a man of the quiet demeanor that he is, that is about as radical as it is possible to get!

Thank you for straightening out the misconception Ryan had. You got to it before I could. All of the various European languages have their own way of expressing what we call "tuning" in English. I often think of the Spanish "afinación" as "refinement" in English. German is interesting in that it uses the verb, "stimmen" which would translate to "voicing" in English. French and Italian use the word which means to "agree". French: accorder, Italian: acordar.

I particularly like the Spanish word for "out of tune": désafinado. There was a popular song many years back with that title. One quote by a man I heard talking 20 years ago in Mexico City was about "désafinación" rather than "afinación". He said that each regional musical group had its own particular out of tune sound (désafinación) that identified it through its own characteristic sound. Since then, I have noticed this kind of distinction when listening to regional music from Mexico.

That can be carried further to what both you and Rafael have noticed and that I have long noticed among tuners who use a 4ths and 5ths temperament and firmly believe that they are tuning Equal Temperament. The system simply does not work for them and they each end up with their own characteristic "désafinación" rather than what is actually intended. As I have said often, I have witnessed it from Los Angeles to New York City and from Montréal to México. Virtually everyone who uses the Braide-White system has their own version of it and hardly any yield a true ET.

Ryan: Francisco Chavez-Silva (Paco)is indeed an RPT and now lives in Austin, TX. He is a rather heavy set man. He has learned to speak English but it is still a bit funny sounding. He became an RPT when he went to a PTG regional seminar in Lubbock, TX one year and passed his exams. He made a very long and hard trip through the heat of Northern Mexico, across the border into Texas to do so.

He has a teenage son who is very talented with the violin and of whom he is very proud. He apparently has no intention of returning to Mexico to live. He gained much inspiration to improve his skills from the three PTG sponsored conferences which were held in Mexico City in 1989, 1990 and 1991. I recall him very excitedly and proudly showing me the results of his tuning exam.

The many lives and careers which have been affected by the existence of PTG and its mission: the continuing education of piano technicians is a story without end. How can this compare to the condescending remarks I received from the yes, meddling moderator and that ugly "behavior" post to which no one can respond, no one can offer a different point of view? There are "other paths", there are "other organizations" there are schools (and I suppose this means the ones who DON'T prepare the students to pass the PTG RPT exams), there are apprenticeships, there are such an infinite number of OTHER ways a person can learn to be a fine piano technician without ever bothering to join PTG and take its exams. That is what that post says and it should be removed. I am tired of seeing it and no, I have no respect for the opinion it expresses.

Guys,

Thanks for straightening out my verb usage!

The tuner I met in Jalapa was not heavy set, of course that was about 16 years ago (I wasn't so heavy set 16 years ago either, but I've been struggling with the old tire around the waist syndrome!)so it still may be the same guy.

I'll have to send him an email just to find out!

Quote:

“The many lives and careers which have been affected by the existence of PTG and its mission: the continuing education of piano technicians is a story without end. How can this compare to the condescending remarks I received from the yes, meddling moderator and that ugly "behavior" post to which no one can respond, no one can offer a different point of view?”

No one can offer different point of view? Well, you just did.

Quote:

“There are "other paths", there are "other organizations" there are schools (and I suppose this means the ones who DON'T prepare the students to pass the PTG RPT exams), there are apprenticeships, there are such an infinite number of OTHER ways a person can learn to be a fine piano technician without ever bothering to join PTG and take its exams. That is what that post says and it should be removed. I am tired of seeing it and no, I have no respect for the opinion it expresses.”

Then purchase this forum from the owner, and you can have it removed. This forum is for the inclusion of all technicians from all walks of life, and their opinions, not just yours.