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#1239293 - 07/28/09 10:49 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Nikalette]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
If you ask me, they got too big for their own good. Happens to a lot of companies, I'm sorry to say.
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#1240983 - 07/31/09 01:47 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: 7even]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: 7even
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
One "heat" thing I forgot to mention about MacBook Pros that have dual Nvidia graphics cards (all the unibody models AFAIK) Is that the computer runs a good bit hotter on the faster discrete graphics card than it does on the slower graphics card that's on the motherboard( or "logic board" as Apple calls it). It gets too hot on the faster card to put on your lap, but the performance increase for programs like Finale 2009 that eat up graphics capacity is well worth it. i might consider one of those cooling pads for when I have it hooked up to my 24" LED Cinema Display (the BEST display I have ever used!) on my desk. BTW, the displays on MB Pros are great too.


To be honest the Macbook Pro runs kinda hot on the integrated graphics as well. I got this program called smcfancontrol and most of the time I keep the fans boosted to about 3300 rpm (stock = 2000 rpm). The computer is a bit louder but it's a lot more lap-holdable. Still gets really warm, but nothing too uncomfortable.

Even with the heat and a couple other problems (will go to the Apple store soon), I'd recommend getting one if you're even considering it. I like it better than any of the Windows laptops I've owned and used - which include higher-end Thinkpads, Dells, and Sonys. It worked with my Yamaha DP great until recently, but I suspect the DP is at fault since it is the only USB device I'm having issues with.


I just got that smcfancontrol thing. I should have gotten it sooner, too. I run discrete graphics all the time unless on battery power, so it was getting HOT even when not doing much! Now with the fans set at 4400 rpm, the CPU temp dropped from nearly 150˚ to around 135˚. Definitely a must-have app for Mac users. thumb
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1241028 - 07/31/09 02:50 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Horowitzian]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Wow, what a Mac love-fest smile Seriously, Apple really hit a home run with OS X. Prior Apple OSs where not that great, in my opinion, and I still think their hardware is nothing to write home about, price/performance wise.

Regarding Dell, I've had nothing but great experiences with them. No, they are not that high quality, but their service is top notch, and while everything can break, it's what is done when they break that counts. Seemingly, the service is no good in the US, but at least in Europe and the Middle East, the service was second to none.

At the various companies I've worked for we've had them all: Toshibas, HPs, Gateways, IBM/Lenovo, Dell, Apple (also Dec, HP, Sun, IBM but lets leave the servers out of it). While my favorite laptops where the Thinkpads, the best service was always Dell. The worst service by a huge margin was Apple.

As an example, before I moved from Dubai to Spain, I bought a Dell XPS laptop, privately. About a year after I bought it, it died completely. A fried motherboard, probably due to a huge spike in the unimaginably poor electrical grid here. Anyway, I called Dell support about it and they told me they'd send someone over. I called at 4 PM, the next morning at 9 AM the service tech was at my door. They had couriered a new board from Amsterdam to Valencia, then driven the two hour trip to my home in the morning. By 10 AM the laptop was up and running again. Didn't cost me a penny. This for a laptop bought in a consumer shop in another continent!

I would love to contrast that with examples of Apple's service, but I'd probably be drowned in hate mail.

But I can't deny the quality of OS X. I wish I could run it on non-Apple laptops.


Edited by Rented (07/31/09 02:53 PM)

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#1241048 - 07/31/09 03:10 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Rented]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I guess service depends upon geographical location, as you rightly point out. For those of us in the US, Apple service is great because it is located in the US and is manned by knowledgeable people who speak English well. smile I've only had to call them once, but my question was answered perfectly.

I strongly disagree about Apple hardware...sure it's expensive but it's nicely made and it works just fine.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1241057 - 07/31/09 03:26 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Rented]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1074
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Rented
Wow, what a Mac love-fest smile Seriously, Apple really hit a home run with OS X. Prior Apple OSs where not that great, in my opinion, and I still think their hardware is nothing to write home about, price/performance wise.

Regarding Dell, I've had nothing but great experiences with them. No, they are not that high quality, but their service is top notch, and while everything can break, it's what is done when they break that counts. Seemingly, the service is no good in the US, but at least in Europe and the Middle East, the service was second to none.

At the various companies I've worked for we've had them all: Toshibas, HPs, Gateways, IBM/Lenovo, Dell, Apple (also Dec, HP, Sun, IBM but lets leave the servers out of it). While my favorite laptops where the Thinkpads, the best service was always Dell. The worst service by a huge margin was Apple.

As an example, before I moved from Dubai to Spain, I bought a Dell XPS laptop, privately. About a year after I bought it, it died completely. A fried motherboard, probably due to a huge spike in the unimaginably poor electrical grid here. Anyway, I called Dell support about it and they told me they'd send someone over. I called at 4 PM, the next morning at 9 AM the service tech was at my door. They had couriered a new board from Amsterdam to Valencia, then driven the two hour trip to my home in the morning. By 10 AM the laptop was up and running again. Didn't cost me a penny. This for a laptop bought in a consumer shop in another continent!

I would love to contrast that with examples of Apple's service, but I'd probably be drowned in hate mail.

But I can't deny the quality of OS X. I wish I could run it on non-Apple laptops.


Wow! What a difference in the service. Here, when my first Dell crashed, I had to spend hours on the phone with customer service talking me through various diagnostics, taking apart the laptop, etc....Twice they sent a part that didn't fix the problem. Finally they sent a tech who told them what needed replacing but had to fight to get it. Then when he came back, installed the part, and reloaded the OS, he left before it was finished, and it still didn't work.

On my last crash - 2nd Dell, again they wanted me to fix it over the phone with them, reformat the hard drive, reinstall the OS....I just gave up and did it on my own, and it's still not working right.

How long ago was your experience? Dell used to be good here in the US, but at least for the past 4 years since I've dealt with them, that has changed.

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#1241058 - 07/31/09 03:27 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Horowitzian]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1074
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
I guess service depends upon geographical location, as you rightly point out. For those of us in the US, Apple service is great because it is located in the US and is manned by knowledgeable people who speak English well. smile I've only had to call them once, but my question was answered perfectly.

I strongly disagree about Apple hardware...sure it's expensive but it's nicely made and it works just fine.


The nice thing with Apple customer service (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can go online and make an appointment with a genius at the store (you can also drop in). Our Apple store here is about 5 minutes from my home.

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#1241060 - 07/31/09 03:30 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Nikalette]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Yep! smile
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1241083 - 07/31/09 04:05 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Horowitzian]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Nikalette, the incident I wrote about happened Nov 08, so not long ago. One must also differentiate between the types of support. Is a feature not working or is a piece of hardware obviously broken? Application and driver problems really are a pain to troubleshoot on a PC, and I seriously doubt the poorly payed telephone support guys have the necessary skills to solve them. Apple has a huge advantage here, with their limited hardware support. With obvious hardware failure it is another matter, and that is mostly what I am referring to with my experience with e.g. Dell vs. Apple.

With regards to the Apple hardware, I wasn't referring to the build quality which, at least for the Pro models, it certainly very high. Although I think the Lenovo Thinkpads are equally well made (and similarly priced).

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#1241107 - 07/31/09 04:34 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Rented]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
FWIW, I think Apple prefers you bring your malfunctioning computer (as in hardware failure) into an Apple store.

As far as hardware quality, it is a myth that Macs are "more expensive" than PC's if you compare apples with apples (do pardon the pun!), such as the Lenovo (IBM) Thinkpads you mentioned. There's a good reason why Dell never advertises their Latitude series of professional laptops, because then everyone would see that. whistle


Edited by Horowitzian (07/31/09 04:35 PM)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1241127 - 07/31/09 05:15 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Horowitzian]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Hmmm...don't know about that. Here a comparison between the Macbook and the a Lenovo ThinkPad T500 (copy-and-pasted right now):

MacBook:
2.13GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM Memory
160GB 5400-rpm Serial ATA HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
8x slot-loading SuperDrive
13.3" WS glossy TFT screen
$999

Lenovo ThinkPad T500:
2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2 GB DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory
160GB 5400-rpm Serial ATA HDD
ATI Mobility Radeon 3650 with 256MB
CD-RW/DVD-ROM Combo 24X/24X/24X/8X Max
15.4" WXGA TFT, w/ CCFL Backlight
$959

So you get a faster processor, much faster memory and larger screen with the ThinkPad, for slightly less money. The ThinkPad also has higher build quality, on par with Macbook Pro.

You could certainly find much more expensive ThinkPads, but these two are at the same price point, and the specs are quite different. Not hugely so, but significantly so.

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#1241144 - 07/31/09 05:35 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Rented]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Excellent point. Seems kind of odd that Apple would give the white MacBook a 1066 MHz FSB while it only has 800 MHz memory...one reason why I wanted a Pro.

The difference becomes a lot fuzzier with the low end Mac vs. the competition. I think if one wants the advantages of UNIX here, you should buy the Lenovo and put Ubuntu on it. I should have clarified that I meant fully spec'd out professional models, e.g. the MacBook Pro vs. Dell Latitude and whatever Lenovo calls theirs. Sorry about that!


Edited by Horowitzian (07/31/09 05:36 PM)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1241199 - 07/31/09 07:27 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Rented]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1074
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Rented
Nikalette, the incident I wrote about happened Nov 08, so not long ago. One must also differentiate between the types of support. Is a feature not working or is a piece of hardware obviously broken? Application and driver problems really are a pain to troubleshoot on a PC, and I seriously doubt the poorly payed telephone support guys have the necessary skills to solve them. Apple has a huge advantage here, with their limited hardware support. With obvious hardware failure it is another matter, and that is mostly what I am referring to with my experience with e.g. Dell vs. Apple.

With regards to the Apple hardware, I wasn't referring to the build quality which, at least for the Pro models, it certainly very high. Although I think the Lenovo Thinkpads are equally well made (and similarly priced).


I've concluded that the main difference is this: Apple produces a limited number of models, with a limited number of configurations. AND, most important, they make the hardware and make the OS and all the other stuff that goes with the system.

With Windows, you have umpteen companies building umpteen hardware and putting the software into it.

Hence, Dell only makes the hardware that windows sits in. I think it's odd that Dell tried to tell me on both PCs that it was the OS and not the hardware. It turned out to be the hardware in the first case, and apart from the problems with the OS, on my new dell there's something wrong with the sound. I just really can't be bothered dealing with them anymore.

AND on my first dell, I had to have the keyboard replaced twice in 2 years...or I should say, have the keyboard shipped so I could install it.

And on both of them the keyboard, or something, is quirky in that when I type fast letters end up showing up in the wrong place on what I'm typing, and entire sentences disappear. I just think they make bad keyboards.

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#1241201 - 07/31/09 07:29 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Rented]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1074
Loc: California
I have heard rumors that you can't truly compare Mac specs to PC's for some mysterious reason. In other words, the same stuff runs faster on a Mac, I have no idea if that's true. Maybe it's the OS.

I know that Vista is a piece of doo-doo, and IE is nothing but trouble, I never use it....so ...

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#1241216 - 07/31/09 07:54 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: galaxy4t]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1183
Loc: London UK
Notebooks often use a system where processor speed is throttled back when the load is light. This helps with battery economy and incidentally with cooling. Office applications spend most of their time waiting for input, things work well.

Audio applications can b*** things up in two ways. Sometimes the speed stepping causes them to perform badly. Sometimes their demand for constant audio steaming means the cpu never gets to slow down. Laptops in particular may overheat.

My opinion is that Apple have done an amazingly good job in establishing the perception of Mac as a luxury brand. Owners defend them with an almost religious fervour. If considering one, just make sure it runs the software you need. Yes, I know you can install Windows alongside the Mac system. But that's a bit silly really, isn't it :-)

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#1241225 - 07/31/09 08:15 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
[...] Yes, I know you can install Windows alongside the Mac system. But that's a bit silly really, isn't it :-)


Not really. There's some software out there that has never been ported for OS X, such as Microsoft Access. There's the angle of gaming too. But gaming's not important to me. The only game I play much anymore (Call of Duty 4) incidentally is ported for OS X. smile
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1241226 - 07/31/09 08:16 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Exalted Wombat]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1785
Loc: Central TX
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
If considering one, just make sure it runs the software you need. Yes, I know you can install Windows alongside the Mac system. But that's a bit silly really, isn't it :-)


One man's silly is anothers saviour. It's still a Windows centric world out there and having the ability to run those one or two Windows only apps really opens the machine up to be quite versatile.

With laptops there's a struggle amongst three attributes: speed, battery life, and heat. If you want speed, you have to suffer with less battery life and more heat. If you want better battery life and a cooler laptop, you have to give up some performance. If you want a cooler laptop and don't want to give up as much performance then you are going to give up some battery life (those fans are required to keep running longer). If you're going to be pounding your lappie all day long and you don't mind losing a bit of battery life (and/or you are doing it with the unit plugged in), there are plenty of apps that will allow you to increase various fan parameters to keep the unit cooler and this can actually make a huge difference as manufs. tend to favor battery life.

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#1241273 - 07/31/09 10:03 PM Re: Mac Revisited [Re: Horowitzian]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20761
Loc: Oakland
Many Windows applications will run on Macs using Crossover.
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