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#1238558 - 07/27/09 11:26 PM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: snoopycar]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: snoopycar
went to someones place to service piano, and was glancing through the bookshelf and a saw an erotic massage illustrate book .. laugh you know who you are ... kerkerker...
no big deal right? everybody must have one right ??


Snoopycar, you were drooling when you saw that book ah? Hahaha laugh

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#1238601 - 07/28/09 01:22 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Bihua]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Originally Posted By: Bihua
But, of coz the more your pay for the piano, the greater their profit margin and hence the more willing they are to entertain your "im chim" request. Right?


You think should be this way, right? But you pay Robert Piano $30 for chicken rice and later you realize you actually have to eat your chicken rice at hawker centre on disposable plate with plastic cutlery!

I had to pay a concert tech out of my own pocket to get my piano properly prepped. All the while the concert tech was shaking his head how come this one, that one not done after delivery. Now my piano is as different as night and day. I was very eem cheem with Robert Piano, even complaining to head office in Germany, but still only lidat, so must pay for service on my own, lor, what to do? mad


Edited by Roxane (07/28/09 01:25 AM)

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#1238604 - 07/28/09 01:28 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Ah hah, that is useful feedback. smile

Actually perhaps some info on how follow-up service is like from each of the major retailers is going to be useful for people like me (the last time I bought a piano was eons ago...)
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1238605 - 07/28/09 01:28 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: jnchoy]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Originally Posted By: jnchoy
I wouldn't want to talk about my experience at Robert piano. Very tiring to even think about it. Perhaps i should not wear t-shirt and jean shirt and also to look like i will definitely spend my money there.


Actually, nothing to do with what you wear. After hearing bad experiences, I dressed up like tai-tai and pretend to be tai-tai, but they still act like they are doing you a favour, not the other way around!

ETA: Maybe my tai-tai hair was not big enough... so they did not buy the disguise! grin


Edited by Roxane (07/28/09 01:36 AM)

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#1238608 - 07/28/09 01:33 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: fj_s]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Originally Posted By: fj_s
Actually perhaps some info on how follow-up service is like from each of the major retailers is going to be useful for people like me (the last time I bought a piano was eons ago...)


I think dealers who are truly passionate about their products will be more inclined to have good after-sales service. Perhaps Digitus will chime in later, but having met Alvin Wee, the dealer of Sauter, at Raffles Piano, I could see he really believe in and love his pianos and he has done a really nice job on Digitus's drool-worthy grand.

My sister-in-law was asking me advice on a piano for her kids, and it's such a pity, but I know I wouldn't ask her to buy a Kawai. I did suggest Sauter... grin


Edited by Roxane (07/28/09 01:34 AM)

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#1238613 - 07/28/09 01:40 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
So

Sauter (Raffles) - fantastic after sales service
Robert - not so good (?)
Yamaha - (seemed good enough 20+ years ago... today?)

How about some of the others, e.g. Chiu Piano, Cristofori, Music Lodge, Pianomaster?
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1238616 - 07/28/09 01:48 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
Originally Posted By: Roxane
I think dealers who are truly passionate about their products will be more inclined to have good after-sales service. ... I know I wouldn't ask her to buy a Kawai. I did suggest Sauter... grin


laugh

Sellers who can afford to lose clientele would not give a heck about service. Obviously a particular seller is so awfully satisfied with his back account such that patrons like us are an insignificant penny.
_________________________
Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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#1238619 - 07/28/09 01:52 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
[quote=RoxaneI had to pay a concert tech out of my own pocket to get my piano properly prepped. All the while the concert tech was shaking his head how come this one, that one not done after delivery. Now my piano is as different as night and day. I was very eem cheem with Robert Piano, even complaining to head office in Germany, but still only lidat, so must pay for service on my own, lor, what to do? mad [/quote]

That's like the norm with the after-sales "service," isn't it? Got a pal who bought a Shigeru, but was treated worse than a plastic toy piano customer. My own RX3 was serviced by a concert tech too - but not from the seller. Paid my own way ...
_________________________
Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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#1238639 - 07/28/09 02:48 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: Roxane

You think should be this way, right? But you pay Robert Piano $30 for chicken rice and later you realize you actually have to eat your chicken rice at hawker centre on disposable plate with plastic cutlery!


Maybe $30 for a plate of chicken rice not enough to be so eem cheem...Digitus paid like $300 for his plate of chicken rice leh! Of coz good after service lah! laugh *Chicken rice analogy*

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#1238643 - 07/28/09 03:04 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Bihua]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Except I think Roxane's chicken rice also cost $300...? Which would be doubly shocking to have bad after sales service...!
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1238644 - 07/28/09 03:05 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Bihua]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Eh, I also paid $300 (actually more) for chicken rice, leh... that's why so frustrated about the after-sales service (or rather, lack thereof). Come to think of it, the service before and during sales was pretty bad too – like I said, it felt like they were doing me a favour selling me their piano, rather than the other way around!

ETA: If I paid $3 or even $30, I think I wouldn't be so upset!


Edited by Roxane (07/28/09 03:06 AM)

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#1238645 - 07/28/09 03:05 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: fj_s]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: fj_s
So

Sauter (Raffles) - fantastic after sales service
Robert - not so good (?)
Yamaha - (seemed good enough 20+ years ago... today?)

How about some of the others, e.g. Chiu Piano, Cristofori, Music Lodge, Pianomaster?


I never experience Robert Piano's after sales service though I heard it is not very bad. At least they will try to solve your problems, but really cannot solve, they will do a one for one exchange.

Ok, my share on PianoMaster. After sales service, frankly, not to my expectation. Maybe I am too eem cheem for the $3 plate of chicken rice. But I must say, I love the taste of the chicken rice. So nothing to do with the piano. Is the service lah!

Jason actually asked if I am a teacher, why so particular on this and that. Though he attempted to resolve on some of my requests, but u can sense the reluctance when I keep asking for this and that. Then he just told me, is like that one lah.

But $3 chicken rice. I cannot ask for too much lah. So ok lor laugh

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#1238649 - 07/28/09 03:12 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: Roxane
Eh, I also paid $300 (actually more) for chicken rice, leh... that's why so frustrated about the after-sales service (or rather, lack thereof). Come to think of it, the service before and during sales was pretty bad too – like I said, it felt like they were doing me a favour selling me their piano, rather than the other way around!

ETA: If I paid $3 or even $30, I think I wouldn't be so upset!


Oh! Sayang Sayang! I can imagine how upset you are. But the chicken rice is still tasty right? Focus on the chicken rice lah. Don't think about the service lah. smile

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#1238651 - 07/28/09 03:17 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Bihua]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Yah, you are right! After service by concert tech, my chicken rice is now very tasty, like with extra soy sauce – the thick sticky, slightly bitter kind! Before that, was just plain chicken rice. I was actually happy to pay for the service.

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#1238653 - 07/28/09 03:31 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Glad to hear that the concert tech made things much better. They can do wonders, especially for a piano as good as yours!

Actually the Singapore market (not just for pianos!) are a little odd in that sense - most people don't care as much about quality after sales service or maintenance to bring out the true potential of the product. In fact, they tend to look at only the brand, and the upfront cost without figuring why the deal is so cheap!

Perhaps there is a lack of a discerning market here. As a result, our retailers can try to get away with shoddy after sales service.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1238654 - 07/28/09 03:31 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Ooohh!!! Shiok! Yummy Yummy! Haha laugh

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#1238663 - 07/28/09 04:09 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: fj_s]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Originally Posted By: fj_s
Actually the Singapore market (not just for pianos!) are a little odd in that sense - most people don't care as much about quality after sales service or maintenance to bring out the true potential of the product. In fact, they tend to look at only the brand, and the upfront cost without figuring why the deal is so cheap!

Perhaps there is a lack of a discerning market here. As a result, our retailers can try to get away with shoddy after sales service.


What you say is true. When it comes to pianos, most buyers (mainly non-playing parents) are concerned with the expense, and if you work out how much it costs to raise a child, it is indeed a scary amount, and to non-players, a piano is a piano, right?

Developing discerning taste takes time, and after all, Singapore went from 3rd world to 1st world in only one generation, so our tastes in many areas have not quite caught up yet. But hopefully we will. You can already see signs of this happening – people will actually pay a lot of money for good food! grin


Edited by Roxane (07/28/09 04:11 AM)

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#1238665 - 07/28/09 04:18 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Bihua]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: fj_s

Actually the Singapore market (not just for pianos!) are a little odd in that sense - most people don't care as much about quality after sales service or maintenance to bring out the true potential of the product. In fact, they tend to look at only the brand, and the upfront cost without figuring why the deal is so cheap!


People with limited budget like me, can only find the best deal within the limitation lor. But even when something is more expensive, many of the times, you are paying for the seller's more expensive rental fees, sales commission, markup of their profits (year-on-year growth), interest charges (give you interest free installments), insurance (better warranty coverage) and the brand name lor. Very limited amount attributes to better quality and after sales service.

From the seller's perspective, they want to maximise their profits. So they either sell a few with high profit margin or have a high turnover but with lesser profit margin.

For the former, usually their after sales service will be good, so that they have a better name for themselves, then can charge a premium when another customer comes in.

But for the latter, usually their after sales service will be limited, coz if not, they will be very busy entertaining so many requests. And afterall, people will still buy because it serves the mass market. And sometimes, their service is also proportional to how much they think you know / can appreciate. Right?

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#1238669 - 07/28/09 04:29 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: fj_s]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: fj_s
Glad to hear that the concert tech made things much better. They can do wonders, especially for a piano as good as yours!

Actually the Singapore market (not just for pianos!) are a little odd in that sense - most people don't care as much about quality after sales service or maintenance to bring out the true potential of the product. In fact, they tend to look at only the brand, and the upfront cost without figuring why the deal is so cheap!

Perhaps there is a lack of a discerning market here. As a result, our retailers can try to get away with shoddy after sales service.


My comments below are to be taken in the Singapore context. There are some somewhat sweeping generalizations but they aren't too far off the mark.

1. Buyers are generally poorly educated about pianos -- how they work, how they react to the micro-climate they are in, and how the action and other physical aspects change over time with use, about necessary periodic maintenance work, about tuning and temperaments. For the new Singapore members, it bears repeating that the first thing they should do is go and buy, beg, steal or borrow Larry Fine's Piano Book, then download and pay for the latest Annual Supplement.

2. The vast majority of piano dealers are unable to educate piano buyers about pianos. Don't believe me? Read Fine's Piano Book and compare that information to what the dealer of new or used pianos tells you intentionally or otherwise. I'll stick my neck out here and say that most piano dealers (particular their sales reps) don't really know much about pianos.

3. Piano teachers who have not had significant exposure to pianos other than the 'usual' mass market brands are not the best sources of recommendations about makes and models. They are of even less use when it comes to technical information about pianos.

4. Buyers want cheap and good. No such thing. Sometimes even expensive doesn't mean good, if the dealer is unable or unwilling to work on the piano to bring it to its full potential.

5. Retail margins are thin in the mass / low-cost end of the market, where most pianos are sold. It isn't worth the dealer's time (and money) to do pre-delivery prep.

6. Dealers can get away with #5 above because buyers (Asian ones in particular) think that fresh out of the crate and untouched by the dealer is best. There is a mistaken belief that all piano manufacturers produce instruments that are perfect before they leave the factory. Even the most expensive pianos NEED prep before AND after delivery.

7. Most buyers think that once the piano arrives in their home everything should be fine from then on. Wrong again. See #1.

8. You can't get the same major brand from more than one dealer in Singapore, so in a sense there is no competition. You take whatever the dealer quotes you because he's got you by the short and curlies if you must have the brand & model and no other.

9. Piano techs here by and large don't have anywhere near the same level of training as PTG-member techs in the U.S. So don't expect too much.


Edited by Digitus (07/28/09 07:55 AM)

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#1238673 - 07/28/09 04:52 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Digitus]
barnaby Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Singapore
Therefore it is no surprise that both digitus and wzkit bought Sauters from Raffles Piano. Not only is the piano in a class of its own but the after sales service is up to scratch too.. smile
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#1238674 - 07/28/09 05:00 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: barnaby]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
My teacher's wunderkind also bought a Sauter!

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#1238676 - 07/28/09 05:06 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: barnaby]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
Teacher's (aka Imam's) Wunderkind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WseWhfqwqGI
_________________________
Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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#1238682 - 07/28/09 05:52 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: chihuahua]
Bihua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Singapore
Are the piano techs here in Singapore PTG certified?

Then, wouldn't it be even risker to buy 2nd hand pianos reconditioned by the 2nd hand shop dealers? Is like, how you know what piano tech is good, and which is just bluffing their way through? Given that none are PTG certified?

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#1238690 - 07/28/09 06:21 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Bihua]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
Originally Posted By: Bihua
Are the piano techs here in Singapore PTG certified?

Then, wouldn't it be even risker to buy 2nd hand pianos reconditioned by the 2nd hand shop dealers? Is like, how you know what piano tech is good, and which is just bluffing their way through? Given that none are PTG certified?


Piano techs here in Singapore are NOT PTG certified. To my knowledge, there is no self-regulating body for piano techs in S'pore.

Well, you will never "know" (depending upon your epistemology) which piano tech is good. The best we can get is word-of-mouth-cum-hearsay-cum-anecdotal evidence - whatever that means.
_________________________
Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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#1238714 - 07/28/09 07:52 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: Roxane
Eh, I also paid $300 (actually more) for chicken rice, leh... that's why so frustrated about the after-sales service (or rather, lack thereof). Come to think of it, the service before and during sales was pretty bad too – like I said, it felt like they were doing me a favour selling me their piano, rather than the other way around!

ETA: If I paid $3 or even $30, I think I wouldn't be so upset!


I warned you didn't I. But nooooo you just HAD to buy a Steinway. :P

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#1238726 - 07/28/09 08:21 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: chihuahua]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: chihuahua
Originally Posted By: Bihua
Are the piano techs here in Singapore PTG certified?

Then, wouldn't it be even risker to buy 2nd hand pianos reconditioned by the 2nd hand shop dealers? Is like, how you know what piano tech is good, and which is just bluffing their way through? Given that none are PTG certified?


Piano techs here in Singapore are NOT PTG certified. To my knowledge, there is no self-regulating body for piano techs in S'pore.

Well, you will never "know" (depending upon your epistemology) which piano tech is good. The best we can get is word-of-mouth-cum-hearsay-cum-anecdotal evidence - whatever that means.


There's nothing stopping a local tech from flying to the U.S. and taking the PTG exam. An interesting question to ask would be how many local techs can pass the PTG exam without a significant amount of additional instruction. I reckon the number would be pretty small, probably approaching zero.

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#1238757 - 07/28/09 09:36 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Digitus]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Originally Posted By: Digitus
Originally Posted By: Roxane
Eh, I also paid $300 (actually more) for chicken rice, leh... that's why so frustrated about the after-sales service (or rather, lack thereof). Come to think of it, the service before and during sales was pretty bad too – like I said, it felt like they were doing me a favour selling me their piano, rather than the other way around!

ETA: If I paid $3 or even $30, I think I wouldn't be so upset!


I warned you didn't I. But nooooo you just HAD to buy a Steinway. :P


Yah, yah, you did... but you know, lah, most people bu4 ting1 lao3 ren2 yen2 (not that you are lao3 wink ), so can only learn through the hard way. But after the service about a month ago by the German concert tech, wah... so happy now. Hope the concert tech lives a long life! grin


Edited by Roxane (07/28/09 09:38 AM)

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#1238774 - 07/28/09 10:06 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: Roxane
Originally Posted By: Digitus
Originally Posted By: Roxane
Eh, I also paid $300 (actually more) for chicken rice, leh... that's why so frustrated about the after-sales service (or rather, lack thereof). Come to think of it, the service before and during sales was pretty bad too – like I said, it felt like they were doing me a favour selling me their piano, rather than the other way around!

ETA: If I paid $3 or even $30, I think I wouldn't be so upset!


I warned you didn't I. But nooooo you just HAD to buy a Steinway. :P


Yah, yah, you did... but you know, lah, most people bu4 ting1 lao3 ren2 yen2 (not that you are lao3 wink ), so can only learn through the hard way. But after the service about a month ago by the German concert tech, wah... so happy now. Hope the concert tech lives a long life! grin


*major roll eyes* Not many people can afford to do what you do, and then continue to pay to bring him back 2 - 3 times each year. Most of us who buy $300 plates of chicken rice have no $ left for anything else. I went into debt to fund mine!

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#1238779 - 07/28/09 10:14 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Digitus]
Roxane Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 932
Actually, hor, the tech charged way less than I thought... I had my old Schimmel regulated by Yamaha once and it was around the same price! But what you say is true, much better the $300 chicken rice should come with soy sauce without needing to pay for the sauce! Which reminds me how shocked I was to have to pay for ketchup at McDonalds in Europe on my first trip 21 years ago...

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#1238793 - 07/28/09 10:31 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Pian [Re: Roxane]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
Roxane,

For one who owns handbags which cost more than a Steinway :P

*Major major eyes roll plus jaws drop*

BTW, who is this German concert tech who might live longer than your Steinway - provided you would sponsor his yearly health checks and the occasional angioplasty? Is he a "Steinway-only" tech?
_________________________
Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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by arty
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Question for shigeru owners.. what sounded similar ?
by Brother Methias
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