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#1320638 - 12/07/09 08:32 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: fj_s]
Jay Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 470
Loc: AUD
it is the same. if u play more you tune more, u regulate more and u voice more. and piano becomes brighter as it ages.

ya, voicing is more expensive i suspect is because the technician needs tune the piano, regulate the action then only he can voice the piano. i guess tuning cost + regulation cost + voicing cost = $T $R $V $extra hours in the house

in the end voicing is just one of the few piano maintainence beside tuning and regulation. since voicing is more adjusting volume there is no specific time like tuning every half-yearly but more personal preference/taste.

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#1320654 - 12/07/09 09:15 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: Jay]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
My general impression was that it's better to start with a piano whose sound you like, then one that you have to do constant voicing.

It's generally not worth it unless the price differential is huge. But of course, it depends on the size of the price differential after all.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1323309 - 12/11/09 12:29 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: fj_s]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
Hi Guys, I am currently looking to purchase a new grand piano.

I currently have some options in mind, the more probable ones are

Hailun 178
Wilhelm Tell

Can i have some opinions regarding these two pianos?

Thanks alot

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#1323905 - 12/12/09 10:07 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
They both offer excellent value for money. I had reverse sticker shock for both pianos. I hear that both are very popular with our students at NAFA and YST.

In terms of sound and action, they were certainly no worse than the established brands. However, the established brands still have an excellent reputation for quality, reliability and after-sales support that is difficult to match. (You may want to think about used pianos too)

I would put it down almost to a matter of taste. You may want to take into account after sales support though. As I have not bought from either, others may be in a better position to comment. If you are indifferent, I believe the Hailun's cheaper, though the Wilhelm Tell 190 is a larger piano with the attendant advantages, particularly in the bass.

You may also want to think about the size of room you are putting the piano in, and neighbours. smile
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1323923 - 12/12/09 10:50 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: fj_s]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
I understand that both of them were produced in China, but neither of them has the Chinese piano kind of bright and overly sharp sound that are definitely not musically sounding to the ears. The tone is mellower , rounded and action is smooth and instant, not kind of jerky.

Anyway while i was at the hailun store, the store owner showed me wendl&lung 178 , sounds good too.

Has anyone bought these two pianos before? Any opinions on that?

Yes preference wise, i think i believe wendl&lung/hailun is better than wilhelm , the one i tried for wilhelm tell was a gershwin 165 new model. tone was okie, but action was slow, some keys were STUCK when i played them . This made me to think that perhaps the QC side was not adequate . Tuner informed me that this was due to inadequate tuning and playing, but as a new piano, if this happens, what does it show?

kindly advise, thanks guys!

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#1323926 - 12/12/09 10:55 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
True. But the Chinese pianos have generally improved significantly in recent years. You may want to try some of the other 'made-in-China' or Korean brands too as a result.

BTW, the Gershwin 165 was not regulated at all. The empire 190 is decent though. (I assumed you were referring to the empire at first.) I think the Hailun dealer takes a bit more care with prep before putting it in the showroom. If you actually prefer the cheaper piano, the decision may be obvious...
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1323972 - 12/12/09 12:28 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
Hi,

W&L = Hailun, mostly. Some parts may be different (such as hammers and case), but the strungback and action are the same (or at least that's the general belief). Some have also suggested that the W&L are voiced differently, but others don't think so.

As for your experience with the Gershwin 165, a new piano in the showroom that has a slow action and stuck keys means that it has not been regulated nor looked after properly. Inadequate tuning or infrequent playing does not cause those things. It is more likely that the dealer is either unwilling or does not have the skills to keep its pianos in good order. These are budget instruments on which the dealer makes a relatively low margin. Spending too much time bringing them up to scratch means adding to the cost of goods sold. smile

Having said that, dealers of much more expensive pianos are also known to be unwilling and/or unable to prep and maintain their customers' pianos properly. frown

Originally Posted By: xguypiano
I understand that both of them were produced in China, but neither of them has the Chinese piano kind of bright and overly sharp sound that are definitely not musically sounding to the ears. The tone is mellower , rounded and action is smooth and instant, not kind of jerky.

Anyway while i was at the hailun store, the store owner showed me wendl&lung 178 , sounds good too.

Has anyone bought these two pianos before? Any opinions on that?

Yes preference wise, i think i believe wendl&lung/hailun is better than wilhelm , the one i tried for wilhelm tell was a gershwin 165 new model. tone was okie, but action was slow, some keys were STUCK when i played them . This made me to think that perhaps the QC side was not adequate . Tuner informed me that this was due to inadequate tuning and playing, but as a new piano, if this happens, what does it show?

kindly advise, thanks guys!

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#1324326 - 12/13/09 01:38 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: Digitus]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
What a pity, because the wilhelm tell really had a warm and rounded sound, but its slow response action and stuck keys almost ruined everything.
i believe i will be going down to the showroom again to look at it, because the tech has promised to tune the piano.

yes fj_s i will be going down to look at some other chinese made grands as well, some of them are really good.


to digitus, how good will it help if the piano has been prepped or regulated? anyway i think the wilhelm tell did not really had a strong bass, it seems as though it sounded better on quieter music.

Does anyone know is there any BROADMANN or RITMULLER grands selling in Singapore? These two grands has had good reviews too.

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#1324338 - 12/13/09 03:17 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Brodmann can be found in the Pianoman's shop in Bukit Timah Plaza I think.

Ritmuller is branded under Kayserburg in Asia I believe. (I could be wrong.) Cristofori sells all the Pearl River pianos of various brands, but I'm not sure if they have grand pianos of that brand for you to try. (The grands in the Funan showroom are a Albert Weber and a Bechstein, both of which are very nice. The Samick there is cheap, small, and more for decoration.)

There are a few others - Moutrie, Weinberg, etc that may also be in that price range you are looking at.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1324367 - 12/13/09 05:46 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
I doubt that the tonal characteristics will change very much regardless of whether the piano is properly prepped or not. However, a decent tuning with the a good temperament can make some difference.

Originally Posted By: xguypiano
to digitus, how good will it help if the piano has been prepped or regulated? anyway i think the wilhelm tell did not really had a strong bass, it seems as though it sounded better on quieter music.

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#1324392 - 12/13/09 08:36 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: Digitus]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
Alrite i will go down and take a look at the brodmann , i read reviews that it had certain sustaining chracteristics of high end piano, will go down and verify that, as well as to compare the price.

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#1324395 - 12/13/09 08:39 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
The Brodmann grands are fine. The problem is that the Pianoman showroom is really a horrid environment in which to audition pianos, so you'll have use your imagination a bit. grin


Edited by Digitus (12/13/09 08:40 AM)

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#1324453 - 12/13/09 11:14 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: fj_s]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: fj_s

Ritmuller is branded under Kayserburg in Asia I believe. (I could be wrong.)


Indeed, and check out the logo!!

http://www.inewidea.com/db/79056831.html

I wonder what kind of market research led to calling them Kayserburg in Asia and Ritmüller in the West. Do all you guys in Singapore aspire to living in a castle? grin

Anyway, in the branding here in the US, it seems that Guangzhou has abandoned the Pearl River fallboard name. The new pianos that have gotten favorable reviews (and do seem nice to me) are the new series Ritmüllers designated as UH for both grands and uprights. The older Pearls and Rits are designated GP and UP with an R suffix after the number if it's branded Ritmüller. I have no idea how you would recognize the new series under the Kayserburg name, but I think it's worth it to try the newer series.

I have a couple of questions for you guys discussing the Chinese brands here and for others (snoopycar, Wzkit, etc.) if they're still active.

How are the earlier Chinese brands like those from DongBei and Guangzhou holding up in Singapore.....any horror stories about structural deformation, unstable tuning, action problems etc.?

How is the pricing of the newer Chinese brands? Hailun is still cheap here, but Brodmann has pushed up prices quite a bit. W&L has a very small presence here but their prices (on paper) are much higher than regular Hailun.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1324457 - 12/13/09 11:31 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: turandot]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
@Turandot:

The branding of pianos with German-sounding names most likely has something to do with the perception that German pianos are best. So a German-sounding brand name on the fallboard attempts to suggest that the piano is in someway superior to those with Asian brand names.

And it works, not just in Singapore but pretty much throughout all of Asia. Many piano buyers (particularly the first-timers) have no idea what a half-decent piano should sound or feel like because they have no frame of reference.

The lack of a pool of quality piano techs in Singapore doesn't help either.

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#1324474 - 12/13/09 12:19 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: Digitus]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Digitus
@Turandot:

The branding of pianos with German-sounding names most likely has something to do with the perception that German pianos are best. So a German-sounding brand name on the fallboard attempts to suggest that the piano is in someway superior to those with Asian brand names.

And it works, not just in Singapore but pretty much throughout all of Asia. Many piano buyers (particularly the first-timers) have no idea what a half-decent piano should sound or feel like because they have no frame of reference.

The lack of a pool of quality piano techs in Singapore doesn't help either.


Digitus, I know that. It still works here too, but I think it's becoming less important as consumers become more educated. My question (half serious/half joking) was not about why Germanic names are used. It was why we get Ritmüller and you guys get Kayserburg with a castle included? grin

My serious questions were about earlier Chinese pianos holding up in your relentless climate and about pricing of the newer Chinese brands. Any ideas?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1324476 - 12/13/09 12:29 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: turandot]
Digitus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 866
Loc: Singapore
@Turandot:

I guess the notional castle that comes with the Kayserburg is about as close as we can get to a fancy property? grin

No idea about how Chinese pianos are holding up here. If I have the time I'll drop in on the leading used-piano dealership/restorer here in Singapore and see what his take is on this.

If you ask any of the mass-market dealers here about keeping a upright piano in good shape in the tropics the usual answer is all that is needed is an always-on heater bar in the case. Some piano owners are then surprised when the keys on their instruments start to seize up. (I say 'upright piano' because the vast majority of pianos sold in Singapore are uprights. About 80+% of the population live in high-rise housing so uprights are the most practical in terms of space utilisation and just getting the darned things up into the flats.)

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#1324491 - 12/13/09 12:50 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: Digitus]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Quote:
"If I have the time I'll drop in on the leading used-piano dealership/restorer here in Singapore and see what his take is on this."


Thanks, Digitus. That would be interesting to read about.

On the castle question, here is the info from the website I linked to earlier. I think that the last sentence is the most meaningful.

Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. The mark consists of the wording "KAYSERBURG" in stylized font above a design featuring a stylized castle in clouds above a shield displaying musical instrument keys with ornamental framework extending up from the right and left side of the shield.

Translations The term "KAYSERBURG" has no meaning in a foreign language.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1324954 - 12/14/09 02:50 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: turandot]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Kayserburg is an actual place (ironically not in Germany!), whereas Ritmuller would be a family name?

The amateur psychologist/sociologist in me is hypothesizing that in the US, perhaps the consumer cares more about 'tradition','family', and possibly a tradition of 'craftsmanship', whereas here, it is the idea of 'where it is made' that is salient.

Obviously the above analysis has no basis in any fact whatsoever.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1324964 - 12/14/09 03:32 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: fj_s]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
I understand that the both the hailun/wendl and lung are considered better Chinese made grands.

In your personal opinion, which one would you prefer if both of them had the same price range? Hailun or Brodmann?

Comparing touch , tone , action and bass response.

Thanks

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#1325157 - 12/14/09 12:17 PM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: xguypiano]
jnchoy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 8
Would like to check on which piano is better as well -my budget is not more than $6K. Between Hailun and Yamaha M112 - which is better?

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#1325850 - 12/15/09 10:42 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: jnchoy]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
xguy - it's a matter of taste really. However, the Hailun I tried was definitely better prepped. Unfortunately the Brodmann I tried in the past was not exactly the best specimen.

jnchoy - again, it's a matter of taste. Both are great pianos. For the same price though, you would be getting a larger piano with nicer finishes for the Hailun. (I liked the ebony sharps and the fuller tone). On the other hand, Yamaha really stands by their product.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1325871 - 12/15/09 11:31 AM Re: Schimmel C130 or Whil.Steinberg [Re: fj_s]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
Haha I have heard about bad reviews in pianoworld about pianoman , looks like they did not reli prep the piano a customer bought. Will this happen to a new piano as well, i wonder.

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#1335992 - 12/29/09 02:12 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: xguypiano]
betbet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 24
Hi all

Wow! I spent days reading from page 1 2006, to the end here! But hope not the end la. But like so many days no new post le. Hope you people are still around.

Anyway, I find this thread really interesting. And can learn a lot.

I don't know much about pianos, so doing some research to buy a piano for my 4-yr old, who just started group piano lessons a few months ago. I've learned to play before too, but that was super super long time ago, and gave up when I failed grade 3 or 4. Sigh. Hope I can learn with my son now, and hope he can sustain the interest, and hope his younger brother can also start learning next time too. (Wa, so many hopes!)

Anyway, I started with a budget of $2k because my friend who bought an old Yamaha for her young daugher, got hers for $1.5k. Then as I go to a couple of 2nd hand dealers' warehouse, I realise $2k can only buy shorter models, and apparently these need to be upgraded if they do go to higher grades. The popular and better sounding Yamahas or Kawais are like more than $4k, way above my budget (my husband will scream!) But I think I can convince him to buy one like around $3.5k?

But still with this budget, I don't seem to find a 2nd hand Yamaha or Kawai that I like the sound le, though I'm not really very sensitive to sound la. The Yamaha's like to me sharp, but the dealer say it is "bright". So I don't know what's sharp and what's bright. Kawai like not so sharp, but I don't know. Another friend tell me look for "clear" sound. I lagi more confused.

Then I also happen to visit another shop with Hailun brand. They also have an old Yamaha U1 or is it U3, plus a Kawaii, don't know what model. She played on the various pianos, and strongly recommended Hailun HL125. I also think Hailun sounded really good for that price, compared to the old Yamaha or Kawai's there. But I don't know is it some marketing strategy?

Also in the more recent postings in this thread, there were talk about digital pianos, Clavorina and Rolands. Wa, like so versatile, can choose between different weighted keys, can have 2 middle Cs for teacher/mother to play together with child, can change sound to other musical instuments. Not sure if this will help to sustain my child's interest. Also not sure how long such electronic devices can last. Would any of you know if these can last like 10-20 years? New ones also not cheap le.

So I really appreciate any comments/advice. What should I buy with my budget?


Edited by betbet (12/29/09 05:59 AM)

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#1335993 - 12/29/09 02:12 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: betbet]
betbet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 24
By the way, I think you all can see, I'm a newbie. That was my 1st post!


Edited by betbet (12/29/09 05:58 AM)

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#1336212 - 12/29/09 11:55 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: betbet]
ycats Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 2
Hi everyone,

I would like to learn about Atlas pianos...anyone who owns one or has experience playing it before, can you share how you find it?

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#1336237 - 12/29/09 12:29 PM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: ycats]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Hello,

bet - $2k may be a little low to get a decent acoustic piano. You are likely to get a lower quality Chinese upright, a relatively new, used Chinese or a very old used Japanese upright, neither of which would be ideal in terms of touch and tone.

Hailun in general is well regarded for its value for money on these boards. It does have a nice touch and tone for its price, but it may also be difficult to get one of the better models for $2k. In a similar range is Kayserberg (more mellow) and Wilhelm Tell (lighter touch), all of which are Chinese made, but in the better range.

You may want to consider a digital piano too, particularly if your child is starting out. There are some advantages, mainly in terms of maintenance, and your child may find it more fun to play with the various sounds, particularly if your children are very young. The P-155 is within your budget, as are Roland when they are on sale.

ycats - Atlas is a very old Japanese brand that has gone out of business. All the ones I have tried are very old and probably not representative of their heyday.
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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#1338168 - 12/31/09 08:48 PM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: betbet]
Titan78 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1
Hi Bet Bet,

which warehouse you go already? Also searching for one for my 5yr old daughter. Maybe we can buy together see got better discount anot. =D

Left you an email, keep in touch.

Happy New Year everyone...
_________________________
Titan

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#1338177 - 12/31/09 09:36 PM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: Titan78]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
Hi people, Happy New Year !

I yesterday just purchased a Hailun HG178 Mahagony grand from Piano master. Coming from the point of view of a person who has played piano for 6 years , and going to take diploma exams this year , i can tell you be reassured. I am not a promoter for hailun piano, nor do i stand anything to gain from it ( i am just a customer) , my advice is trust your ears, and because its so hard to spend hours looking at the computer staring at forums ( which i did of course ), look listen and feel for the piano which appeals to you.

However if you are looking for the best value (performance/ratio) , and as a form of investment ( because hailun prices are going to rise) , i suggest you seriously consider hl.

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#1338179 - 12/31/09 09:39 PM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: xguypiano]
xguypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 28
ALSO, looking for 2nd hand kawai? Try piano galleria, they have a whole warehouse of used kawai, good and high quality. I am surprised how much research i did to buy 1 piano, oh great.

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#1338259 - 01/01/10 01:42 AM Re: Adult Beginner in Singapore: Buying First Piano [Re: xguypiano]
fj_s Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 169
Loc: Singapore
Hi Xguy

Congratulations! Yes, the HG178 is a very nice piano, and excellent value for money. I would have bought it myself if I had enough space. It's actually good value - about the price of a used GC1, and sounds a lot better!

Pics are almost mandatory. smile
_________________________
In progress

Mozart: Sonata in D Major, k576
Chopin: Polonaise in A-flat major, Op 53
Berg: Sonata in B minor, Op 1
Bach: Partita in C Minor, BWV 826

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