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#1235765 - 07/23/09 07:10 AM
tactical piano awareness
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Junior Member
Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Glendale RI
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Hi, my name is Mark I'm 49 years of age who always played by ear and now learning to read. My question is, playing, say right hand two octaves C-C-C. Is it better to use the octave span of my hand as a guide feel, or visualize the octave span and do it on the fly. I've tried it both ways and the feel works 100% but puts a limitation on speed and visually on the fly maybe 65% accuracy. I do have a teacher she's 85 yrs. of age. I don't know how other teachers are but she never really has pat answers as to what she's developed as to the system she uses. Like walking I guess, after a while it just and it's hard how one does it. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated !
Thanks, Mark (Glendale RI 401-710-7966)
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#1235775 - 07/23/09 07:55 AM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: pianostoolie]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1179
Loc: Minnesota
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Hi Mark and welcome to PW!! I'm not exactly sure what your question is...but I think you're asking about fingering...? I'll have to go look up "fly" in my music dictionary, too technical. lol. C to C to C I teach RH 1(thumb), RH 3, RH 5 (pinky) If you're going more than 2 octaves, it would be C 1, C 3, C 1, C 3 until the last one, which would be a 5 again. Helpful? I hope so 
_________________________
It is better to be kind than to be right.
Professional private piano teacher since 1994.
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#1235863 - 07/23/09 11:08 AM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Ebony and Ivory]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4521
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There are a number of ways this could be done. Say you want to play middle C and then the next two higher C's as rapidly as possible in succession.
One way might be to use finger 1 on middle C, 5 on the second, then quickly replace 5 with 1 and play the third with 5. This is secure, because you have the octave span of your hand to judge the distance, but substituting the fingers takes time.
Another way might be to use 1 on middle C, 5 on the second, and then hop wholesale with the hand and play the third with, say, 4. Judging the hop by feel. The fact that the third C is to the left of a black key can help, because you can use that black key as a sort of "backstop" that when you hit it you know where the third C is. This is fast, but less secure, but with practice you can hit it every time.
Or you might use 1 1 1, or 1 5 5, judging the distance by feel. And so forth.
Blind pianists do this kind of playing with no problem.
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#1235952 - 07/23/09 01:20 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Gyro]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 6682
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
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When I read this topic, I thought it was going to discuss assault pianos! 
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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#1235963 - 07/23/09 01:43 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: John v.d.Brook]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13077
Loc: Iowa City, IA
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It all depends on context - speed, tone, and what comes before and after.
If all I had to play was C-C-C, I'd use 1-5-3
(Yes, 1-5-3, sorta like Harpo Marx.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1236058 - 07/23/09 04:11 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Kreisler]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4156
Loc: South Florida
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It all depends on context - speed, tone, and what comes before and after.
If all I had to play was C-C-C, I'd use 1-5-3
(Yes, 1-5-3, sorta like Harpo Marx.) Also: 2 1 5, and if you return back again, it becomes obvious why. But context is everything, and we don't have any.
_________________________
Piano Teacher
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#1236313 - 07/24/09 02:05 AM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Gyro]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 383
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There are a number of ways this could be done. Say you want to play middle C and then the next two higher C's as rapidly as possible in succession.
One way might be to use finger 1 on middle C, 5 on the second, then quickly replace 5 with 1 and play the third with 5. This is secure, because you have the octave span of your hand to judge the distance, but substituting the fingers takes time.
Another way might be to use 1 on middle C, 5 on the second, and then hop wholesale with the hand and play the third with, say, 4. Judging the hop by feel. The fact that the third C is to the left of a black key can help, because you can use that black key as a sort of "backstop" that when you hit it you know where the third C is. This is fast, but less secure, but with practice you can hit it every time.
Or you might use 1 1 1, or 1 5 5, judging the distance by feel. And so forth.
Blind pianists do this kind of playing with no problem. This is the first time I agree with comments from Gyro. And this worries me. Either he is improving, or I'm going senile.
_________________________
Dear Noah, We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5. Yours sincerely, The Unicorns
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#1236421 - 07/24/09 10:30 AM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Susan K.]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13077
Loc: Iowa City, IA
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Kreisler - Why would you play 1-5-3? Is that to get you into position for what comes after? It feels very good for me to do that. I'm just very curious, because I'm starting to do jumps... It's the fastest way I can play the three C's. I may or may not completely change based on what comes after.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1236730 - 07/24/09 05:03 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Kreisler]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4156
Loc: South Florida
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There is a passage in the Mephisto Walzt where the RH has to play notes with the 2nd finger, then leaps up to octaves (the next two keys, octaves, are played AS an octave), and those leaps have to be played almost blind. The LH is also jumping.
That's why I found 2 1 5 to be fastest, even as separate notes.
_________________________
Piano Teacher
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#1236733 - 07/24/09 05:05 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: John v.d.Brook]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1627
Loc: CA
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When I read this topic, I thought it was going to discuss assault pianos! Yeah, me too! I think it's really supposed to be "tactile" instead of "tactical." 
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed. M.M., Piano
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#1236890 - 07/24/09 10:42 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Susan K.]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4156
Loc: South Florida
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The nice thing about 2 1 5 is that you can go both ways: 2 1 5 1 2, returning to your starting place. 
_________________________
Piano Teacher
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#1237034 - 07/25/09 10:32 AM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: Gary D.]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 2280
Loc: Virginia, USA
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But I don't think the OP was really asking about fingering.
I can't be sure, but I think his real question is how to learn keyboard geometry (or geography as some of you say).
He used the octave C's as an example. And he mentions that he's been playing by ear, and now is learning to read, so in the past he's been looking at the keys. Now he has to know where the key is - either by tactile feel or by spatial orientation, or by some other method. Not surprisingly his teacher hasn't explained it well yet.
_________________________
gotta go practice
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#1237175 - 07/25/09 03:19 PM
Re: tactical piano awareness
[Re: TimR]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4156
Loc: South Florida
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I interpreted his question as one about how to get from location 1 to 2 to 3, what happens when the fingers are not able to stretch from one note to another. If the question is about something else, it may need a different answer. 
_________________________
Piano Teacher
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