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#1235649 - 07/22/09 10:06 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
Piano-on-Hudson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 107
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Marty in Minnesota
really don't care how anyone rants on me, as a performing pianist and teacher, I consider the Kawai to be well superior to Yamaha.


Why?
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Yamaha Corp. of America professional and manager for 13 years
Yamaha C3E (Midi Grand)
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#1235887 - 07/23/09 11:37 AM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Piano-on-Hudson]
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
Hi un-named "Coorinator" as the "Director of (US) Yamaha Artist Services, Inc.",

I am happy to answer your question as to "Why?"

Yahama pianos have a big sound, but, it is without substance and depth. The core of the tonal voice is missing and it is mere surface bluster. In my experience, I have yet to find a Yamaha which I can dig into and find it's true sound. A C7 doesn't have the guts to respond to Brahms op. 118.

On a larger Kawai, I can dig in and the piano responds with depth and color, and not just surface fluff. In the same price range, I suggest that shoppers look at Kawai and not at Yamaha. RX-7 or C7, it all holds true even with the smaller grands.

I am not the least bit hesitant to critique the product you represent. I speak my mind as a pianist.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

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#1235903 - 07/23/09 12:02 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1734
I have to say that I agree with Marty about Yamahas. I had been wanting to jump in on this debate, but had been unable to put my feelings about Yamahas into words. Marty has spared me this task by verbalizing what I had thought about Yamahas. I know they have their devoted fans--indeed, that is how I learned about them, by playing a relatively new one that belongs to friends who love it--but I simply do not like how they sound. I am less familiar with Kawais, so don't feel qualified to compare them to Yamahas.


Edited by Rank Piano Amateur (07/23/09 12:03 PM)

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#1235905 - 07/23/09 12:04 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
SeilerFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 746
Originally Posted By: Marty in Minnesota
Yahama pianos have a big sound, but, it is without substance and depth. The core of the tonal voice is missing and it is mere surface bluster.


I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I don't think that what Marty in Minnesota states is accepted as a common denominator when people discuss Yamaha pianos. I for one think that the grands from the C series are awesome pianos with depth and expression. Furthermore, they are long-lived, stable, and have a predictable aging history (no major nasty surprises). They are more brilliant than the Kawais but, in terms of most recent production (I played a new C3 recently), nicely so, not in the sense of the old cliche that says Yamahas are piercing and bright. In terms of quality, Yamaha and Kawai seem to be on a par with Kawai having a slight advantage in the innovation department with their Millenium action and the Shigeru line. However, with Yamaha and Kawai it comes down to individual taste in my view.

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#1235930 - 07/23/09 12:36 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: SeilerFan]
Doogs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 127
Loc: Rockaway Beach New York
Back OT, I don't think Kitts really is that into selling their pianos. I had to laugh at the "double digit" discount---they are offering only 10% and trying to make that sound like a big deal. But as we know, it's certainly possible to negotiate more than this, it's just that it won't be offered without considerable effort on the part of a highly motivated buyer if at all. My 2 cents.

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#1235946 - 07/23/09 01:04 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
Originally Posted By: Marty in Minnesota
Yahama pianos have a big sound, but, it is without substance and depth. The core of the tonal voice is missing and it is mere surface bluster. In my experience, I have yet to find a Yamaha which I can dig into and find it's true sound. A C7 doesn't have the guts to respond to Brahms op. 118.


You don't have anything concrete to say how "bad" Yamaha is so you resort to using vague words that have no meaning to anyone other than yourself. That demonstrates the emptiness, lack of substance and depth of your post It's obviously full of sour grapes and loser mentality.

To put it simply:

A large chain Jordan Kitt would rather dump Steinway to get Yamaha. Isn't it clear enough who is the winner? :P
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#1235954 - 07/23/09 01:21 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: pno]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3403
Loc: US
how do you know it's not Steinway dumping Jordan Kitts? smile

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#1235961 - 07/23/09 01:41 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: sophial]
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
Technically it's Steinway "canceled" the contract but that's a result of JK getting Yamaha. I don't believe JK didn't know they would lose Steinway if they get Yamaha. They still went ahead and got Yamaha. So effectively it is the same as they dumped Steinway to get Yamaha.
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#1235995 - 07/23/09 02:35 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: pno]
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
Kawai may have the edge over Yamaha on innovation with their Millenium action. But Yamaha still has the edge on execution of the design where it counts most - on the showroom floor and in the home. Yamaha actions are always flawless in my experience - as good as it gets. Kawai, not so much, often presenting with the odd clicking key or sticking pedal etc. No big deal but this is where Yamaha gets it's reputation. Their pianos are well made and well prepped. And they sound fine to me. I think Marty is maybe a little over the top on his assessment of the Yamaha sound but, hey, his opinion is as valid as anyone else's as this is a purely subjective matter.
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#1235996 - 07/23/09 02:37 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Starting Over]
wg73 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 65
I've been to Steinway dealers who also carry Yamaha. Do we really know all the details here?

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#1236099 - 07/23/09 05:10 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
Piano-on-Hudson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 107
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Marty in Minnesota
Hi un-named "Coorinator" as the "Director of (US) Yamaha Artist Services, Inc.", Yahama pianos have a big sound, but, it is without substance and depth. The core of the tonal voice is missing and it is mere surface bluster. In my experience, I have yet to find a Yamaha which I can dig into and find it's true sound. A C7 doesn't have the guts to respond to Brahms op. 118.

On a larger Kawai, I can dig in and the piano responds with depth and color, and not just surface fluff. In the same price range, I suggest that shoppers look at Kawai and not at Yamaha. RX-7 or C7, it all holds true even with the smaller grands.

I am not the least bit hesitant to critique the product you represent. I speak my mind as a pianist.


Hi Marty, you certainly do speak your mind. "Coordinator", incidentally, is from my earliest visits to this venue, before I was director of my program. The name's James M. Steeber, and I'll be happy to take you on a tour of Yamaha Artist Services, Inc. at any time of your choosing.
What's your name?

I can only state that we are proud of the 50 years Yamaha Pianos have spent in the United States, and counting. The venues we serve are too numerous to mention, the world over. If you like, I'll go over them with you. Otherwise, I suggest you review the differences between opinion and simply letting off steam.

Yours in song,
James M. Steeber
_________________________
James M. Steeber
Yamaha Corp. of America professional and manager for 13 years
Yamaha C3E (Midi Grand)
Yamaha CP33
Stride piano -ø- Composition -ø- Photography -ø- Marketing -ø- PR -ø- Artist Management

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#1236120 - 07/23/09 05:37 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Piano-on-Hudson]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Good grief Marty!

That is quite a quote. I'm supposing what you mean is that the Yamaha tone doesn't give you the range of expression that you want in interpreting the very-defined range of piano lit that you are drawn to. I believe that you're a DEAPS* card-carrying member, no? smile

In my experience both on this forum and in general, DEAPS folks are the most demanding and detailed in what they require of a piano (nothing wrong with that) and the least tolerant of the fact that other lit may indicate other choices (unfortunate IMO), and finally that the whole business is utterly subjective just as interpretations of any sort of piano lit are ultimately subjective. One can hardly state that any particular example of DEAPS lit demands a certain tonal profile for the simple reason that it was not composed on pianos in use today.

Even staying within DEAPS, it's easy to make the case that Brahms may indicate a different tonal profile from Profofiev, not to mention Satie or Mompou.

Ken's "Let's all be friends" may be an unrealistic ideal, but how about "Let's all put up with each other"? smile

*Dead European Appreciation and Preservation Society
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#1236124 - 07/23/09 05:43 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: turandot]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: turandot


*Dead European Appreciation and Preservation Society


Does this society sell T-shirts?? Cuz I want one!!!
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#1236128 - 07/23/09 05:49 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: ProdigalPianist]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13961
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
A friend of mine in the Washington DC area told me that Jordan Kitt's Music is liquidating all of their Steinway pianos because a new dealer is coming into town to be the new dealer.


Steinway itself?

Norbert
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#1236155 - 07/23/09 06:42 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Norbert]
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
I highly doubt that Marty is any member of any appreciation society. I think s/he just feels bitter about the fact that JK dumped his favorite brand(s) for another brand. Like a woman dumped by a man for a young beautiful girl. The woman being dumped then started badmouthing the man for his "bad" taste and how "ugly" the girl is!
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#1236193 - 07/23/09 07:59 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: pno]
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
OK GANG!

I am not a dead European, I am a pianist.

A representative from Yamaha asked "why?" I preferred a Kawai to a Yamaha.

I answered that question and stated that is was my opinion. I didn't evade the question. I am not bitter about anything. I don't own either a Yamaha or Kawai, so I cannot be accused of "brand loyalty."

It is my ears, fingers, and feet which evaluate a piano. Yes, I do use all three pedals.

I could care less about JK or whatever brands are being carried. My initial response was to the OP and not to all of the nattering nay-bobs in this tread. I play literature from all eras. I evaluate a piano as a given instrument and am not swayed by drivel or advertising. Either a piano responds or it doesn't. It's very simple.

Mr. Steeber - It was you who quoted me and asked "Why?" I was not "letting off steam", I was answering your direct question to me. I prefer Kawai to Yamaha. Get it, Got it, Good! I really don't need to be invited on any tour to know, play, and understand the Yamaha pianos. My hands and ears tell me all I need to know.
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Marty in Minnesota

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#1236211 - 07/23/09 08:35 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
Piano-on-Hudson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 107
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Marty in Minnesota
Mr. Steeber - It was you who quoted me and asked "Why?" I was not "letting off steam", I was answering your direct question to me. I prefer Kawai to Yamaha. Get it, Got it, Good! I really don't need to be invited on any tour to know, play, and understand the Yamaha pianos. My hands and ears tell me all I need to know.


That's fine, sir, but I really was curious. Your response was filled with 'facts' as you saw them, more than opinions, as I read your post. As I represent the trade name, I thought your OP demanded at least one interrogative follow-up. Thank you for revealing your thoughts. I doubted you'd take the tour. JS
_________________________
James M. Steeber
Yamaha Corp. of America professional and manager for 13 years
Yamaha C3E (Midi Grand)
Yamaha CP33
Stride piano -ø- Composition -ø- Photography -ø- Marketing -ø- PR -ø- Artist Management

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#1236235 - 07/23/09 09:36 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Piano-on-Hudson]
SophieM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 353
Loc: New York City
Coordinator - I have to thank you for the many free (or very reasonably-priced) concerts YASI has hosted. I really like the intimate atmosphere of the venue and appreciate the programs/artists that have performed there.

I also thank you/YASI for sponsoring the Mannes College's festival going on right now. I got some tickets at a great price! smile

(Steinway and Yamaha are the piano sponsors according to the Mannes website.)

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#1236246 - 07/23/09 10:02 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: SophieM]
Piano-on-Hudson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 107
Loc: New York City
We love hearing this stuff, SophieM. And I'm glad you're enjoying IKIF at Mannes. More to come of both.
Very kind of you to comment.

James
_________________________
James M. Steeber
Yamaha Corp. of America professional and manager for 13 years
Yamaha C3E (Midi Grand)
Yamaha CP33
Stride piano -ø- Composition -ø- Photography -ø- Marketing -ø- PR -ø- Artist Management

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#1236427 - 07/24/09 10:44 AM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Piano-on-Hudson]
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Coordinator
Originally Posted By: Marty in Minnesota
Mr. Steeber - It was you who quoted me and asked "Why?" I was not "letting off steam", I was answering your direct question to me. I prefer Kawai to Yamaha. Get it, Got it, Good! I really don't need to be invited on any tour to know, play, and understand the Yamaha pianos. My hands and ears tell me all I need to know.


That's fine, sir, but I really was curious. Your response was filled with 'facts' as you saw them, more than opinions, as I read your post. As I represent the trade name, I thought your OP demanded at least one interrogative follow-up. Thank you for revealing your thoughts. I doubted you'd take the tour. JS


I am glad you were curious and I answered your question.

There were no 'facts', only my opinions. You asked - You got.

It has become very interesting that I am being forced into butting horns with a representative of Yamaha. That kind of confrontation is truly un-gracious from someone who is trying to represent his company.

For those of us who have been at PW for some time, we have gotten to know the representative from Kawai. The comparison of representatives reinforces my opion of the pianos.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

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#1236433 - 07/24/09 10:54 AM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
Piano-on-Hudson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 107
Loc: New York City
Marty,
You appear to be spoiling for some kind of fight which I'm not in a position to offer. I asked an honest question, as I was curious about what you said. As you stated, I asked - I got. You weren't forced into anything.
James
_________________________
James M. Steeber
Yamaha Corp. of America professional and manager for 13 years
Yamaha C3E (Midi Grand)
Yamaha CP33
Stride piano -ø- Composition -ø- Photography -ø- Marketing -ø- PR -ø- Artist Management

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#1236462 - 07/24/09 11:45 AM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Marty in Minnesota]
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
Marty,
We all have eyes and know what you are. It doesn't matter what the Yamaha and Kawai representatives do and don't do. The result is the same. We are not here to convince you anything about Yamaha. But it is necessary to provide counter viewpoint when someone is spilling unfounded information. You see that as confrontation as if your view point cannot be challenged.

The Yamaha rep here has demonstrated class. Something that some Yamaha-haters really lack. I have been here long enough to know.

It doesn't matter how much you hate Yamaha, the world doesn't revolve around you, obviously. There are probably many more pianists called 'Marty' in the world that love Yamaha than those who hate.

Jordan Kitt has dumped Steinway for Yamaha. Get over it!


Edited by pno (07/24/09 11:46 AM)
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#1236463 - 07/24/09 11:46 AM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Piano-on-Hudson]
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
I usually stay out of these threads, but I can't resist this one. Marty is right regarding the sound and feelings received from a Yamaha. I too do not like the bright, brittle and depth-less sound these instruments have.

I'm sorry to say this and hurt other peoples feelings, but it's true. When I was piano hunting back in 2005, I tried about 28 pianos. Of these 28 pianos, 26 of them were grands including Yamaha, Schimmel, Steinway, Bösendorfer, Mason and Hamlin, and others. (I couldn't afford either the Steinway or the Bosie, but I had to try them anyway.)

Of the instruments I tried, I went for the Vogel, which was in my price range and suited me well musically. The same dealer sells Yamaha, and I tried several C-series pianos including a very nice-looking C7. Unfortunately to me these instruments did not have any personality to them when compared to the others including a Petrof, Estonia 190, and the Schimmels. To me they sounded brittle and harsh rather than musical.

This sound might be great for Jazz or other contemporary music, but it surely does not serve well for the music I play or for my playing style.

Anyway back to the topic. If Steinway feels this way towards another piano company, it shows how insecure the management is in the company. It's too bad because they do make very fine pianos, but have priced themselves way too hight up in the market for most people to afford.

John
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#1236480 - 07/24/09 12:00 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: John Citron]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: John Citron
Marty is right regarding the sound and feelings received from a Yamaha.

John, I am surprised you would make such a ridiculous statement. How can he be "right" about the sound and feelings received from a Yamaha? Is there some kind of objective measure of "sound and feelings" that applies to everyone? Marty can only talk about his personal feelings. They are purely his personal feelings and opinions and can not be judged as "right".

My personal opinion about Yamahas is completely different. I owned a Yamaha C3 that was voiced on the mellow side and it had a sweetness and purity of sound that my Steinway B has not matched.
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#1236483 - 07/24/09 12:08 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: jazzyprof]
Piano World Offline


Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5527
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (originally N...
I've played Yamahas I liked, I've played Steinways I didn't like, and vice versa.

As jazzyprof says, it's personal preferences.
Otherwise, there would only be one piano company...

MasoSteinGrotYamKawBechChicEstPeaRitKurzBluthAugFazHardNorKohlPerzPetPleyPramSam
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#1236501 - 07/24/09 12:19 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: pno]
Steve Cohen Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10335
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: pno
Technically it's Steinway "canceled" the contract but that's a result of JK getting Yamaha. I don't believe JK didn't know they would lose Steinway if they get Yamaha. They still went ahead and got Yamaha. So effectively it is the same as they dumped Steinway to get Yamaha.


You are making assumptions that are false, and have a flase conclusion.
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#1236507 - 07/24/09 12:25 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: Piano World]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Piano World

Otherwise, there would only be one piano company...

MasoSteinGrotYamKawBechChicEstPeaRitKurzBluthAugFazHardNorKohlPerzPetPleyPramSam

Ooops...you left out Bosen! There: MasoSteinGrotYamKawBechChicEstPeaRitKurzBluthAugFazHardNorKohlPerzPetPleyPramSamBosen
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#1236510 - 07/24/09 12:27 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: jazzyprof]
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
Originally Posted By: John Citron
Marty is right regarding the sound and feelings received from a Yamaha.

John, I am surprised you would make such a ridiculous statement. How can he be "right" about the sound and feelings received from a Yamaha? Is there some kind of objective measure of "sound and feelings" that applies to everyone? Marty can only talk about his personal feelings. They are purely his personal feelings and opinions and can not be judged as "right".

My personal opinion about Yamahas is completely different. I owned a Yamaha C3 that was voiced on the mellow side and it had a sweetness and purity of sound that my Steinway B has not matched.


Marty expressed a similar opinion to mine therefore he/she's right. wink

Perhaps you are lucky in the rare Yamaha that you have found. Every Yamaha grand I've ever played, including some brand new ones recently, were too bright and brittle.

As we all know tt's all personal preference. If I had the money, I wouldn't even have a modern piano... I've been spoiled playing on antique Erards and Bösendorers at the Frederick Collection. laugh These are a far superior to a modern piano any day. Once you play an instrument that has an individual personality unlike the modern piano that has been cranked out with CAD/Cam genterated parts, you'll never want a modern piano again.

John
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#1236586 - 07/24/09 02:07 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: John Citron]
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
I am truly amazed how all of the Yamaha Lovers become so truly defensive.

Why is that?

I expressed an opinion, it is only an opinion, and is valid to me. I could care less about what others think and I will make my own decisions, create my own evaluations, and come to my own conclusions.

Don't tell me that I am wrong in my own opinions. That is totally rude, ill-mannered, and tasteless. It reflects on the attitudes of the owners of that particular piano.

I shall be even more blunt. Yamaha is not the end all, and be all, of contemporary piano building craft, skill, or art.

Get a damn grip on reality! That is my opinion about all of the Yahama Crusaders who don't even conceive that there might be better pianos available.
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Marty in Minnesota

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#1236587 - 07/24/09 02:09 PM Re: Jordan Kitt's Music Liquidating all Steinways? [Re: John Citron]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
[quote=John Citron As we all know tt's all personal preference. If I had the money, I wouldn't even have a modern piano... I've been spoiled playing on antique Erards and Bösendorers at the Frederick Collection. laugh These are a far superior to a modern piano any day. Once you play an instrument that has an individual personality unlike the modern piano that has been cranked out with CAD/Cam genterated parts, you'll never want a modern piano again. John [/quote]

This we have to remember, comes from someone who also owns and plays a clavichord!

But plays the modern pianos, beautifully!
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"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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