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#1232211 - 07/15/09 08:49 PM Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on
genoism Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 5
Rachs Elegie Op 3 No 1? All I have are just the notes...though I can for the most part 'feel' out which finger goes where it'd still be nice to save some time and not have to figure it out.

thanks in advance smile

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#1232481 - 07/16/09 01:35 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
Ebony and Ivory Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1179
Loc: Minnesota
Your teacher should work that out with you. If you have small hands, you could need to do some "twisting", but if your hands are larger, you could do more "stretching" (not the technical terms BTW smile )

Generally speaking, fingerings in books isn't usually a good idea (IMO) because it really does depend on who is playing the piece.
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#1232487 - 07/16/09 01:41 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Ebony and Ivory]
AZNpiano Online   happy
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5558
Loc: Orange County, CA
The Alfred edition (ed. Murray Baylor) has a ton of fingering suggestions, as well as editorial suggestions on re-distributing notes between hands. The pedal marks are also very specific.
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#1233802 - 07/19/09 01:45 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: AZNpiano]
genoism Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 5
I can't possibly afford a teacher. I used to have one way back when I was like 10 but for a long while have been just playing on my own now(25 now, and no my fingers are not short/small, I can play pretty much an octave and 2 notes in addition)

AZN, I have the sheet music already, would prefer not to buy it again....would it be possible to scan mine and stick it into a pdf or something and upload it here?

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#1233811 - 07/19/09 01:59 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
Ebony and Ivory Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1179
Loc: Minnesota
In that case, I would work out sections at a time. Take the hand that is giving you difficulties, and play it alone. Start with the hand where you left off with the last measure. Play until it is awkward and then change something. Try it several ways (keep in mind the next passage) until it feels comfortable. Then move on to the next section. Write what you have chosen on the paper.

Going through the music, hands seperately, slurs together, sections at a time, you should be able to find the patterns that feel right to you. Are you going to twist? Are you going to stretch? Look ahead and see where your hand needs to be next, that may help you decide which fingers to use. Be consistent. Once you have chosen what feels right, use it. That's why I recommend writing it down.

It can help to see other people playing the same pieces. If you use it for this purpose, Youtube can be helpful. Just keep in mind that there are a lot of bad habits out there. Just watch to see if they are twisting or stretching on a certain passage for example.
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It is better to be kind than to be right.

Professional private piano teacher since 1994.

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#1233812 - 07/19/09 02:00 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
Ebony and Ivory Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1179
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: genoism
save some time and not have to figure it out.


Oops, I guess I should have re-read your original post.
Sorry wink
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It is better to be kind than to be right.

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#1233984 - 07/19/09 08:40 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: genoism
AZN, I have the sheet music already, would prefer not to buy it again....would it be possible to scan mine and stick it into a pdf or something and upload it here?


Uh, that would be illegal.
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#1234017 - 07/19/09 10:07 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Minniemay]
genoism Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 5
why would it be illegal...

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#1234032 - 07/19/09 10:55 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: genoism]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: genoism
I can't possibly afford a teacher. I used to have one way back when I was like 10 but for a long while have been just playing on my own now(25 now, and no my fingers are not short/small, I can play pretty much an octave and 2 notes in addition)

AZN, I have the sheet music already, would prefer not to buy it again....would it be possible to scan mine and stick it into a pdf or something and upload it here?

Why is it faster to scan it, upload it, and hope that someone will do your work for you than to finger it yourself?

Your problem is not fingering. It is using your time wisely.
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#1234226 - 07/20/09 12:33 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: BDB]
Ebony and Ivory Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1179
Loc: Minnesota
It is illegal if you intend to make money from it.
There is no problem that I can see, with genoism copying this for us so we can help him with the finger numbers.

Teachers in schools copy their music all the time. If they don't want to ruin their music by letting someone borrow it and potentially leaving it in the rain (has happened to me), spilling coffee on it, etc....they will copy it to preserve it.
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It is better to be kind than to be right.

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#1234334 - 07/20/09 03:39 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: Ebony and Ivory]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Ebony and Ivory

Teachers in schools copy their music all the time. If they don't want to ruin their music by letting someone borrow it and potentially leaving it in the rain (has happened to me), spilling coffee on it, etc....they will copy it to preserve it.

That does not make it legal. It just means that they get away with it. I would be careful. smile
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#1234335 - 07/20/09 03:47 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: Gary D.]
Barb860 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 1646
Loc: northern California
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Ebony and Ivory

Teachers in schools copy their music all the time. If they don't want to ruin their music by letting someone borrow it and potentially leaving it in the rain (has happened to me), spilling coffee on it, etc....they will copy it to preserve it.

That does not make it legal. It just means that they get away with it. I would be careful. smile

Does this mean it would be illegal for the OP to scan his piece for the purpose of seeking fingering advice?
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#1234337 - 07/20/09 03:49 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: Barb860]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Well, if music is scanned in such a way that it can be downloaded by others and then used, that makes it possible for people to get the music without buying it. I'm not a lawyer, but until getting more feedback, I would be careful.
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#1234339 - 07/20/09 03:55 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: Gary D.]
Barb860 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 1646
Loc: northern California
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Well, if music is scanned in such a way that it can be downloaded by others and then used, that makes it possible for people to get the music without buying it. I'm not a lawyer, but until getting more feedback, I would be careful.


Yipes! I bet the OP does not want to get into that situation.
I don't know how to scan anything in the first place LOL.
Perhaps the OP could take his score to a local teacher at a music store and ask for fingering assistance in just that one piece.
What about the folks who scan scores in their posts and ask for fingering advice that way? Don't we see that happening frequently?
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#1234342 - 07/20/09 03:56 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: genoism]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: genoism
AZN, I have the sheet music already, would prefer not to buy it again....would it be possible to scan mine and stick it into a pdf or something and upload it here?
Why not!? And while we're at it we'll play it for you too!
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#1234354 - 07/20/09 04:09 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: genoism
AZN, I have the sheet music already, would prefer not to buy it again....would it be possible to scan mine and stick it into a pdf or something and upload it here?
Why not!? And while we're at it we'll play it for you too!

<laughing>
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#1234391 - 07/20/09 05:22 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5558
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: genoism
why would it be illegal...


Well, there is this thing called copyright. I don't agree with a lot of it, and there are some bogus laws in place that is aimed at paying lots and lots of money to publishers for many many many many many years after a composer's death.

Have you tried buying copyrighted music from Eastern Europe? Now it will literally cost an arm and a leg.

And you get some publishing companies that keep on making photocopies of old (edited in the 1800's), crummy, squished music (size 4 font, anyone???) and threaten to sue people if they did ANYTHING with it.
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#1234405 - 07/20/09 05:35 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano


Well, there is this thing called copyright.

And people called lawyers who can make our lives VERY miserable. laugh
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#1234414 - 07/20/09 05:48 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5558
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano


Well, there is this thing called copyright.

And people called lawyers who can make our lives VERY miserable. laugh


Actually, Gary, you can blame Congress and its antiquated laws. I tried reading up on copyright laws, and it put me to sleep. So, basically anything published before 1922 is public domain in the United States. There are some exceptions for post-1922 music, but just to be safe--don't copy anything recent. There are reasons why lawyers get paid the big bucks.
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#1234437 - 07/20/09 06:40 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Actually, Gary, you can blame Congress and its antiquated laws. I tried reading up on copyright laws, and it put me to sleep. So, basically anything published before 1922 is public domain in the United States. There are some exceptions for post-1922 music, but just to be safe--don't copy anything recent. There are reasons why lawyers get paid the big bucks.

Yes. I'm very well aware of this, "up close and personal". I had a lawyer threaten to sue me over something I posted on a web-site, early 20th century. And it was not about making one cent. Just an educational site.

That was my point: unless you know how nasty the law can be, you are vulnerable. frown
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#1234673 - 07/21/09 07:19 AM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numberin [Re: Barb860]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Barb860

What about the folks who scan scores in their posts and ask for fingering advice that way? Don't we see that happening frequently?
They are usually posting a section if the music - not the complete piece, or a complete volume. I believe* that falls under the "fair use" clause of copyright law.

Asking someone to post a pdf of the entire score might or might not be legal, but it's not a good idea to encourage that because if it happens here a lot then Frank (the owner of the site) could be exposed to legal action.

*I'm not a lawyer that specializes in intellectual property law.

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#1234678 - 07/21/09 07:26 AM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: AZNpiano]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano


Well, there is this thing called copyright.

And people called lawyers who can make our lives VERY miserable. laugh


Actually, Gary, you can blame Congress and its antiquated laws. I tried reading up on copyright laws, and it put me to sleep. So, basically anything published before 1922 is public domain in the United States. There are some exceptions for post-1922 music, but just to be safe--don't copy anything recent. There are reasons why lawyers get paid the big bucks.
It actually has very little to do with Congress. Most copyright regulation and standards come from the Universal Copyright Convention of Geneva in 1952.

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#1234679 - 07/21/09 07:32 AM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Gary D.]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Actually, Gary, you can blame Congress and its antiquated laws. I tried reading up on copyright laws, and it put me to sleep. So, basically anything published before 1922 is public domain in the United States. There are some exceptions for post-1922 music, but just to be safe--don't copy anything recent. There are reasons why lawyers get paid the big bucks.

Yes. I'm very well aware of this, "up close and personal". I had a lawyer threaten to sue me over something I posted on a web-site, early 20th century. And it was not about making one cent. Just an educational site.

That was my point: unless you know how nasty the law can be, you are vulnerable. frown


Lawyers who calculate damages tend to use models based on lost revenues for the plaintiff. Your intentions could be purely innocent, but if it results in lost revenues - e.g. anyone able to download a copyrighted work from your site - it doesn't matter if you are not making money from it.

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#1236795 - 07/24/09 06:54 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Phlebas]
genoism Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 5
the copy i have was actually from a sheet music book back from russia that my grandmother gave me. Since then the book as pretty much all but fallen apart from age and I've copied over the notes in a sheet music program. So technically, no one owns rach's actual notes anymore. I've got my own printed pdf of it. The old book had finger suggestions but way back when I copied it over(along with all the other songs) I never thought of copying over the finger numberings unfortunately.

Mind you, this was printed back when the soviet union was around. Copyright laws back then allowed an author to retain the rights to his material for something like 15-25 years.

Also I don't need the fingering for the whole thing, just for the really fast parts and those parts where you jump around like crazy.

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#1236874 - 07/24/09 10:01 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
In the amount of time you have spent writing here about this, you could have figured out your own fingering, which would serve you better than anyone else's fingering.

Use someone else's fingering, and you learn how to play one piece. Finger for yourself, and you learn how to play any piece.
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#1236891 - 07/24/09 10:49 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Phlebas]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Phlebas

Lawyers who calculate damages tend to use models based on lost revenues for the plaintiff. Your intentions could be purely innocent, but if it results in lost revenues - e.g. anyone able to download a copyrighted work from your site - it doesn't matter if you are not making money from it.


The objection was to thinks I had recorded, not sheet music.


Edited by Gary D. (07/24/09 10:49 PM)
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#1236905 - 07/24/09 11:24 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: Gary D.]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Here is a brief guide to the legalities of photocpying and posting of (copyright) sheet music, as it applies in Australia.
I would imagine that other countries have similar regulations.

As to performing copyright works in public recitals, etc., that is a whole other minefield.

http://www.mipi.com.au/DownloadDocument.ashx?DocumentID=512
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#1237623 - 07/26/09 12:58 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: BDB]
genoism Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: BDB
In the amount of time you have spent writing here about this, you could have figured out your own fingering, which would serve you better than anyone else's fingering.

Use someone else's fingering, and you learn how to play one piece. Finger for yourself, and you learn how to play any piece.


I've had the fingering 'worked' out before i even posted here however they don't feel good and yes i've tried other ways but I'm not a pro, I don't know what the easiest way of going about it is. That and I didn't think I was asking for legal help on posting my notes. In theory it was a 1 day exchange, seems unlikely to get help though at this point.

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#1237731 - 07/26/09 04:57 PM Re: Any sheet music out there with finger numbering on [Re: genoism]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1267
Loc: California
MTNA also has a section on their website about copyright:

http://www.mtna.org/Default.aspx?tabid=316


I think it pretty much says the same thing, although it continues with legalities of performing copyrighted music in recitals and other events. Basically, it doesn't matter that you're not making money or charging admission to the event; if you don't have permission from the publisher you legally cannot perform it in public. This is the reason why many professional music organizations (MTNA, MTAC) subscribe to ASCAP, where they pay a fee and all their teacher-members are covered in their studio recitals. I think there's something that covers churches and choir performances too, because they've gotten in trouble for performing some new Michael W Smith song without permission.
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