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#1236169 - 07/23/09 06:59 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: William A.P.M.]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 12482
Loc: Iowa City, IA
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I would love to know the source! It's either a fascinating bit of insider information, or a relatively obvious coincidence. (DAH,DAH,DAH,DAAAH isn't exactly uncommon in 6/8 time.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1236201 - 07/23/09 08:08 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: Kreisler]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14706
Loc: New York City
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I would love to know the source! It's either a fascinating bit of insider information, or a relatively obvious coincidence. (DAH,DAH,DAH,DAAAH isn't exactly uncommon in 6/8 time.) By "source" do you mean how Braginsky knows this as fact as opposed to just his own guess or imagination? He didn't say anymore about this in the master class, but he certainly sounded convinced of its truth. But he also said he tells this story to everyone that plays this sonata for him, so maybe it's just a story he likes to tell.
Edited by pianoloverus (07/23/09 08:10 PM)
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#1236302 - 07/24/09 01:16 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1630
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
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Goodness me, I'll be certain to tune in to the BBC (TV, radio, web, whatever) whenever I just happen to hear that fascinating rhythm when Prokofiev's Seventh Sonata is playing out of the blue, whether it be from electronic audio sources, live performances, or as part of the music of the spheres! And we must further decode other secret messages in Prokofiev's music -- who knows, maybe the secret of existence is revealed in Peter and the Wolf!
And Prokofiev must've been an all-encompassing genius who transcends space and time, because he MUST have commanded other composers from the past AND the future to use the short-short-short-long rhythm! Forget Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and Ives's Concord Sonata, there's also Beethoven's D major four hand sonata, Divertimento for String Trio, Fourth Piano Concerto, Appassionata, Egmont Overture, Mozart's two piano concerto, 25th Piano Concerto and Symphonia Concertante, Copland's El Salón México, Mendelssohn's A minor and F minor string quartets, Brahms's First Symphony, piano sonatas (all three), Ballade in D minor, Piano Trio in C minor, Intermezzo in C and Rhapsody in Eb, Mahler's Fourth and Fifth symphonies, Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet, Schumann's Fantasy Pieces Op. 111, Scriabin's First and Second piano sonatas, Strauss's cry-me-a-Danube, the other Strauss's Piano Sonata in B minor, Tchaikovsky's Fifth and Sixth symphonies, Schubert's D minor String Quartet, B minor Symphony and G major Piano Sonata, Dvorak's Ninth Symphony, every Bruckner symphony, Sibelius's First Symphony, Handel's Concerto Grosso Op. 3 #3 and Messiah, Rachmaninov's First Piano Concerto, countless Bach fugues (including the C# major, F major, F# minor, and A minor from WTC II), Liszt's B minor Ballade and Second Piano Concerto, Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony, both Chopin concerti, Ligeti's Horn Trio and Etudes, Lutoslawski's Piano Concerto, Lindberg's Piano Concerto, Holst's Planets, Tippett's Second Piano Sonata, Bernstein's West Side Story, Henze's Seventh Symphony, Barraque's Piano Sonata, Boulez's Second Piano Sonata, Rihms's Fourth String Quartet, Rautavaara's Seventh Symphony, and the theme music of Remington Steele and the old He-Man cartoon series, not to mention countless marches, gigues, and other dances. What's more, good ol' Sergei made sure that Morse made ...- to represent V -- after all, it is Fate's favorite letter!
Prokofiev made sure that the BBC's ratings will always be high! You know what? This has become so much greater than a mere piano sonata -- so in addition to tuning in to BBC Whatever when hearing that rhythm occuring in music or in nature (so many species of birds have been commanded by Prokofiev as well!), I'll also make sure to have a drink! That way, I am assured of having an extra long life. Heck, I may even achieve immortality! Soon, I will join the mighty Prokofiev in sprinkling the rhythm across space and time! It will be the universe's swan song when it achieves heat death and maximum entropy. Godhood, here I come!
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke, Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke, Die Karpfen viel fressen, Die Predigt vergessen.
Die Predigt hat g'fallen. Sie bleiben wie alle.
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#1236308 - 07/24/09 01:37 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: Janus K. Sachs]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 16545
Loc: Oakland
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You have to play it upside down and backwards. Then it sounds like "Paul is dead!"
_________________________
Semipro Tech
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#1236347 - 07/24/09 04:54 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5424
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Fascinating. I don't think I've heard a Russian urban legend before. Well, other than the ones about Anastasia Romanov being alive and well in some place like Hoboken or Lima or Cairo.
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#1236356 - 07/24/09 06:29 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: Phlebas]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5424
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I heard a Russian pianist once say the end of the 6th sonata was Stalin getting machine gunned.
I doubt the Stalin idea is valid, but that ending really could easily be interpreted as sounding like a burst of machine gun fire. I'd never thought of that before, but it seems to fit the sense of the piece.
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#1236506 - 07/24/09 12:24 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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Junior Member
Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Maryland
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The passage is too obscure and buried in the music for me to buy this argument ... as an opening motif maybe, but not where it is now.
Having said that, Prokofiev was not unknown to allude to things in his music or thumb his nose at the Soviet authorities who did not want him writing "decadent" modern music. And then there are times when you aren't sure if he is alluding to things. Case in point from the same (7th) sonata - in the third movement, there are two places where the right hand is playing an ostinato pattern in (2 + 3 + 2) /8 time and out of nowhere the left hand plays what seems to be the opening four notes of the Star Spangled Banner (with the four notes effectively in a different "key" and rhythm). Given that sonatas 6 through 8 were written during WWII, I have often wondered is this is a real allusion.
Edited by Liszt Disciple (07/24/09 12:25 PM) Edit Reason: correct type
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#1236533 - 07/24/09 12:58 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: Liszt Disciple]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 221
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I want to know more possible secret thingies in Prokofievs music, I find it very interesting! But was he really known for putting things like that in his pieces?
Edited by davaofthekeys (07/24/09 01:01 PM)
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#1236555 - 07/24/09 01:25 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: davaofthekeys]
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Full Member
Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 265
Loc: Singapore
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Braginsky was living in Russia in desperate times and the cynics who have responded in sarcasm may underestimate how important it may have been to be able to have contact with the outside world. Shostakovich's memoirs paint a bleak and terrifying picture of the Stalinist regime that make compelling reading. If Braginsky as a student was listening out for these things, it is very likely he derived the knowledge to do so from a source very close to Prokofiev, particularly given that his teacher was Goldenweisser.
Interestingly, however, Richter never mentioned this 'code', despite his close connection to Prokofiev. If indeed there is an intended code, perhaps he never knew about it, or perhaps he felt the people who need to know it already did.
Edited by timbo77 (07/24/09 01:45 PM) Edit Reason: (corrected for typos)
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#1236969 - 07/25/09 04:06 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: timbo77]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5424
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Braginsky was all of eight years old when both Stalin and Prokofiev died, so there's a bit of a disconnect there. Secondly, it would have to be an amazingly sophisticated radio that played a specific signal upon homing in on a frequency - I would need some kind of technical explanation of how this worked before I believed it, since I have never come across one that does it, nor have I even heard of such a radio. I don't doubt at all that many people in the USSR, especially younger ones, were very keen on getting news and information that was not pre-screened and controlled by the government, but this story just doesn't seem very plausible without a lot more supporting information. Also, regarding the Volkov book purporting to be Shostakovich's memoir, you may be interested in this article about it by Alex Ross that was published in the New Yorker a few years ago.
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#1237042 - 07/25/09 10:50 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: wr]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14706
Loc: New York City
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Braginsky was all of eight years old when both Stalin and Prokofiev died, so there's a bit of a disconnect there. Secondly, it would have to be an amazingly sophisticated radio that played a specific signal upon homing in on a frequency ... Braginsky said it was a timpani playing the rhythm. Was the period when outside radio broadcasts were barred only for a year or two or was it longer?
Edited by pianoloverus (07/25/09 11:00 AM)
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#1237100 - 07/25/09 01:05 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: Liszt Disciple]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Massachusetts
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The passage is too obscure and buried in the music for me to buy this argument ... as an opening motif maybe, but not where it is now.
Having said that, Prokofiev was not unknown to allude to things in his music or thumb his nose at the Soviet authorities who did not want him writing "decadent" modern music. And then there are times when you aren't sure if he is alluding to things. Case in point from the same (7th) sonata - in the third movement, there are two places where the right hand is playing an ostinato pattern in (2 + 3 + 2) /8 time and out of nowhere the left hand plays what seems to be the opening four notes of the Star Spangled Banner (with the four notes effectively in a different "key" and rhythm). Given that sonatas 6 through 8 were written during WWII, I have often wondered is this is a real allusion. Not sure if I buy this one... the Star Spangled Banner opens with a simple major arpeggio. A different key/rhythm wouldn't be odd with Prokofiev. Edit: Okay, just listened a couple times on Youtube, I don't hear it. But I guess it's a possibility, especially if that was the only way he could safely convey his beliefs during WWII. Btw, I liked the Martha Argerich Version. As a bonus, you get to read lots of fun arguments in the comments about which other pianists play it better or worse.
Edited by ruprakt (07/25/09 01:21 PM)
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#1237322 - 07/25/09 07:54 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5424
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Braginsky was all of eight years old when both Stalin and Prokofiev died, so there's a bit of a disconnect there. Secondly, it would have to be an amazingly sophisticated radio that played a specific signal upon homing in on a frequency ... Braginsky said it was a timpani playing the rhythm. Was the period when outside radio broadcasts were barred only for a year or two or was it longer? I finally figured out what he was talking about. It wasn't some mysterious thing that played upon finding the right frequency at all. It was the old BBC World Service interval signal that they would play between programs. It was supposed to represent the letter "V" in Morse code. Click this link to hear it. Here in the US, I remember the old NBC three-note chime playing G, E, and C that was used in much the same way.
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#1237334 - 07/25/09 08:17 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: wr]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14706
Loc: New York City
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Braginsky was all of eight years old when both Stalin and Prokofiev died, so there's a bit of a disconnect there. Secondly, it would have to be an amazingly sophisticated radio that played a specific signal upon homing in on a frequency ... Braginsky said it was a timpani playing the rhythm. Was the period when outside radio broadcasts were barred only for a year or two or was it longer? I finally figured out what he was talking about. It wasn't some mysterious thing that played upon finding the right frequency at all. It was the old BBC World Service interval signal that they would play between programs. It was supposed to represent the letter "V" in Morse code. Click this link to hear it. Here in the US, I remember the old NBC three-note chime playing G, E, and C that was used in much the same way. I didn't mean to imply that Braginsky thought it was some mysterious thing, only that he thought the theme I mentioned in Prokofiev's 7th was supposed to be a clue to listeners that this signal was for the BBC radio. Now if you mean to imply that the signal was something that everyone in Russia would have known about before Prokofiev wrote his Sonata, then that would mean that his story was an exaggeration or myth or maybe all that Prokofiev wanted to do was to quote it.
Edited by pianoloverus (07/25/09 08:19 PM)
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#1237419 - 07/25/09 10:53 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5424
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Braginsky was all of eight years old when both Stalin and Prokofiev died, so there's a bit of a disconnect there. Secondly, it would have to be an amazingly sophisticated radio that played a specific signal upon homing in on a frequency ... Braginsky said it was a timpani playing the rhythm. Was the period when outside radio broadcasts were barred only for a year or two or was it longer? I finally figured out what he was talking about. It wasn't some mysterious thing that played upon finding the right frequency at all. It was the old BBC World Service interval signal that they would play between programs. It was supposed to represent the letter "V" in Morse code. Click this link to hear it. Here in the US, I remember the old NBC three-note chime playing G, E, and C that was used in much the same way. I didn't mean to imply that Braginsky thought it was some mysterious thing, only that he thought the theme I mentioned in Prokofiev's 7th was supposed to be a clue to listeners that this signal was for the BBC radio. Now if you mean to imply that the signal was something that everyone in Russia would have known about before Prokofiev wrote his Sonata, then that would mean that his story was an exaggeration or myth or maybe all that Prokofiev wanted to do was to quote it. I didn't think that Braginsky thought it was some mysterious thing; I myself thought it was some mysterious thing, because of how I (mis)read your description of how it worked. At any rate, the story that Prokofiev put the signal into the sonata as a code to tell people how to find the BBC broadcast still doesn't make very much sense. After all, how would you know that's what it was unless you already knew that's what it was? And of course if you knew that's what it was, you wouldn't be needing it as a clue. And I don't know that the BBC was trying to disguise their broadcast so that any code would be needed to figure out who they were. So it still feels like a musical urban myth kind of story to me. In terms of timing, Prokofiev worked on the 7th sonata from 1939 through 1942, and the info I've got from the web says the BBC started using that signal in 1942, so there is a chance the Prokofiev could have known about it towards the end of the time he was composing the piece and could have inserted it as a quote of the BBC signal. However, he doesn't even shift the pitch on the last note, like the BBC signal does, but instead repeats the same pitch four times, which makes it even less likely it has any deliberate connection to the BBC signal at all.
Edited by wr (07/25/09 11:06 PM)
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#1237439 - 07/25/09 11:39 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 1901
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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If there's any truth to Braginsky's tale, it must be acknowledged that Prokofiev's effort at schnookering the authorities was that of a sophomoric schoolboy. Now Webern, on the other hand, Webern was a guy who was really playing in the big leagues. Read this from the Associated Press:
Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis
By Heinrich Kincaid
(c) The Associated Press
BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official living in Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have suspected for years: that early twentieth century German composer Anton Webern and his colleagues devised the so-called "serial" technique of music to encrypt messages to Nazi spies living in the United States and Britain.
In what can surely be considered the most brazen instance of Art Imitating Espionage to date, avant garde composers of the Hitler years working in conjunction with designers of the Nazi Enigma code were bamboozling unsuspecting audiences with their atonal thunderings while at the same time passing critical scientific data back and forth between nations.
"This calls into question the entire Second Viennese School of music," announced minimalist composer John Adams from his home in the Adirondack Mountains. "Ever since I first encountered compositions by Arnold Schonberg I wondered what the hell anyone ever heard in it. Now I know."
Gunned down by an American soldier in occupied Berlin, 62 year old Anton Webern's death was until now considered a tragic loss to the musical world. At the time the U.S. Army reported that the killing was "a mistake", and that in stepping onto the street at night to smoke a cigarette Webern was violating a strict curfew rule.
It is now known that Webern was using music to shuttle Werner Heisenberg's discoveries in atomic energy to German spy Klaus Fuchs working on the Manhattan atom bomb project in New Mexico. Due to the secret nature of the project, which was still underway after the invasion of Berlin, Army officials at the time were unable to describe the true reason for Webern's murder.
Hans Scherbius, a Nazi party official who worked with Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, admitted at age eighty-seven that the Nazis secretly were behind the twelve-tone technique of composition, which was officially reviled to give it the outlaw status it needed to remain outside of the larger public purview.
"These pieces were nothing more than cipher for encoding messages," he chuckled during an interview on his balcony in Buenos Aires. "It was only because it was 'naughty' and difficult that elite audiences accepted it, even championed it."
Physicist Edward Teller, who kept a 9-foot Steinway piano in his apartment at the Los Alamos laboratory, was the unwitting deliverer of Heisenburg's data to Fuchs, who eagerly attended parties thrown by Teller, an enthusiastic booster of Webern's music.
Arnold Schonberg, the older musician who first devised the serial technique at the request of the Weimar government of Germany, composed in America to deliver bomb data stolen by Fuchs back to the Nazis, who worked feverishly to design their own atomic weapons.
As an example, Scherbius showed Associated Press reporters the score of Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra" overlaid with a cardboard template. The notes formed a mathematical grid that deciphered into German a comparison between the neutron release cross-sections of uranium isotopes 235 and 238.
Schonberg responded with a collection of songs for soprano and woodwinds that encrypted the chemical makeup of the polonium-beryllium initiator at the core of the Trinity explosion.
And in Japan, Toru Takemitsu took time out from his own neo-romanticism to transmit data via music of his nation's progress with the atom.
"The most curious thing about it," says composer Philip Glass in New York City, "is that musicians continued to write twelve-tone music after the war, even though they had no idea why it was really invented. Indeed, there are guys who are churning out serialism to this day."
Unlike the diatonic music, which is based on scales that have been agreed upon by listeners throughout the world for all of history, twelve-tone music treats each note of the chromatic scale with equal importance, and contains a built-in mathematical refusal to form chords that are pleasing by traditional standards. Known also as serialism, the style has never been accepted outside of an elite cadre of musicians, who believe it is the only fresh and valid direction for post-Wagnerian classical music to go.
"Even if this is really true," states conductor Pierre Boulez, a composer who continues to utilize serial techniques, "the music has been vindicated by music critics for decades now. I see no reason to suddenly invalidate an art form just because of some funny business at its inception."
Tomasino
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#1237480 - 07/26/09 03:09 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: tomasino]
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Junior Member
Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 3
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#1237548 - 07/26/09 10:19 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: pianoloverus]
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Junior Member
Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 1
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Hello everyone, this is Alexander Braginsky. A former student in South Carolina alerted me to this discussion. It took a while to figure out how to join, but here I am, ready to set the story strait. The wonderful observation was made by the late Israeli pianist Yali Wagman, who I met many years ago. He has passed away since. The four note motive appears first in the left hand preceeding the 2d theme in the 1st mvt. It then begins the 2d theme, transformed,sounding soft and sad. Wagman observed that it sounds like the signal that preceeded BBC World Service broadcasts. At the time, these were the only source of free information about the world events, and BBC, along with all Western broadcasts in Russian language, was jammed. Listening to it was a punishable offence, but everybody was taking the risk anyway. This jamming continued for decades, long after I left USSR in 1972.
The practice by composers of encoding information in their works is very old. Books and articles are written, decoding Bach's secret "messages". These are numerous and fascinating, but we won't go into this now. Of course, Schuman has used notation ti encode names of places and people. Shostakovich uses his name ( D-S-C-H) repeatedly, most prominently in his Quartet #8.
Of course, Prokofiev was not passing any information along to anyone, no more that Bach was conveying the correct spelling of his name. These are private things, intended for the composer more than anyone else. Sometimes it enhances the "story" that the work of music is telling, sometimes it brings composer's persona into it more directly.
The 7th Sonata is one of the three great War Sonatas - 6, 7 and 8. The four - note motif (BBC signal, opening of Beethoven's 5th and V -for victory, in this case- in Morse code)shouts out fortissimo for the 1st time on the last page of Sonata #6 (1st mvt). I have also discovered it in #8 (not having a score with me can't tell the location). It is also discernable in the victorious Finale of #7.
All these observations are meaningful only insofar as they help us with the interpretation of the work of music, otherwise they are just curiousities. In case of Prokofiev Sonatas, they introduce a powerfull element of war realities: looking for the news, longing for victory, and the victory itself. More specifically, this must prevent a pianist from playing the opening of the 2d theme in the 1st mvt of #7 "rubato", i.e. with distorted rhythm.
A quick remarque to some other questions, raised in the following entrees. Richter does not speak of it because he did not notice, just like everybody else until Wagman - and he did not publish it. For anybody at the timeimply that Procofiev refers to BBC broadcast would be to implicate themselves into listening. And the KGB officials who monitored BBC broadcasts, did not listen to Prokofiev's sonatas.
Hope it helps!
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#1237551 - 07/26/09 10:23 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: tomasino]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Massachusetts
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If there's any truth to Braginsky's tale, it must be acknowledged that Prokofiev's effort at schnookering the authorities was that of a sophomoric schoolboy. Now Webern, on the other hand, Webern was a guy who was really playing in the big leagues. Read this from the Associated Press:
Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis
By Heinrich Kincaid
(c) The Associated Press
BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official living in Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have suspected for years: that early twentieth century German composer Anton Webern and his colleagues devised the so-called "serial" technique of music to encrypt messages to Nazi spies living in the United States and Britain.
In what can surely be considered the most brazen instance of Art Imitating Espionage to date, avant garde composers of the Hitler years working in conjunction with designers of the Nazi Enigma code were bamboozling unsuspecting audiences with their atonal thunderings while at the same time passing critical scientific data back and forth between nations.
"This calls into question the entire Second Viennese School of music," announced minimalist composer John Adams from his home in the Adirondack Mountains. "Ever since I first encountered compositions by Arnold Schonberg I wondered what the hell anyone ever heard in it. Now I know."
Gunned down by an American soldier in occupied Berlin, 62 year old Anton Webern's death was until now considered a tragic loss to the musical world. At the time the U.S. Army reported that the killing was "a mistake", and that in stepping onto the street at night to smoke a cigarette Webern was violating a strict curfew rule.
It is now known that Webern was using music to shuttle Werner Heisenberg's discoveries in atomic energy to German spy Klaus Fuchs working on the Manhattan atom bomb project in New Mexico. Due to the secret nature of the project, which was still underway after the invasion of Berlin, Army officials at the time were unable to describe the true reason for Webern's murder.
Hans Scherbius, a Nazi party official who worked with Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, admitted at age eighty-seven that the Nazis secretly were behind the twelve-tone technique of composition, which was officially reviled to give it the outlaw status it needed to remain outside of the larger public purview.
"These pieces were nothing more than cipher for encoding messages," he chuckled during an interview on his balcony in Buenos Aires. "It was only because it was 'naughty' and difficult that elite audiences accepted it, even championed it."
Physicist Edward Teller, who kept a 9-foot Steinway piano in his apartment at the Los Alamos laboratory, was the unwitting deliverer of Heisenburg's data to Fuchs, who eagerly attended parties thrown by Teller, an enthusiastic booster of Webern's music.
Arnold Schonberg, the older musician who first devised the serial technique at the request of the Weimar government of Germany, composed in America to deliver bomb data stolen by Fuchs back to the Nazis, who worked feverishly to design their own atomic weapons.
As an example, Scherbius showed Associated Press reporters the score of Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra" overlaid with a cardboard template. The notes formed a mathematical grid that deciphered into German a comparison between the neutron release cross-sections of uranium isotopes 235 and 238.
Schonberg responded with a collection of songs for soprano and woodwinds that encrypted the chemical makeup of the polonium-beryllium initiator at the core of the Trinity explosion.
And in Japan, Toru Takemitsu took time out from his own neo-romanticism to transmit data via music of his nation's progress with the atom.
"The most curious thing about it," says composer Philip Glass in New York City, "is that musicians continued to write twelve-tone music after the war, even though they had no idea why it was really invented. Indeed, there are guys who are churning out serialism to this day."
Unlike the diatonic music, which is based on scales that have been agreed upon by listeners throughout the world for all of history, twelve-tone music treats each note of the chromatic scale with equal importance, and contains a built-in mathematical refusal to form chords that are pleasing by traditional standards. Known also as serialism, the style has never been accepted outside of an elite cadre of musicians, who believe it is the only fresh and valid direction for post-Wagnerian classical music to go.
"Even if this is really true," states conductor Pierre Boulez, a composer who continues to utilize serial techniques, "the music has been vindicated by music critics for decades now. I see no reason to suddenly invalidate an art form just because of some funny business at its inception."
Tomasino I do hope you're joking... this was long ago discredited. LiebeKlavier's above link does a good job refuting the rumor.
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#1237556 - 07/26/09 10:34 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: braginsky]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14706
Loc: New York City
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Hello everyone, this is Alexander Braginsky. A former student in South Carolina alerted me to this discussion. It took a while to figure out how to join, but here I am, ready to set the story strait. The wonderful observation was made by the late Israeli pianist Yali Wagman, who I met many years ago. He has passed away since. The four note motive appears first in the left hand preceeding the 2d theme in the 1st mvt. It then begins the 2d theme, transformed,sounding soft and sad. Wagman observed that it sounds like the signal that preceeded BBC World Service broadcasts. At the time, these were the only source of free information about the world events, and BBC, along with all Western broadcasts in Russian language, was jammed. Listening to it was a punishable offence, but everybody was taking the risk anyway. This jamming continued for decades, long after I left USSR in 1972.
The practice by composers of encoding information in their works is very old. Books and articles are written, decoding Bach's secret "messages". These are numerous and fascinating, but we won't go into this now. Of course, Schuman has used notation ti encode names of places and people. Shostakovich uses his name ( D-S-C-H) repeatedly, most prominently in his Quartet #8.
Of course, Prokofiev was not passing any information along to anyone, no more that Bach was conveying the correct spelling of his name. These are private things, intended for the composer more than anyone else. Sometimes it enhances the "story" that the work of music is telling, sometimes it brings composer's persona into it more directly.
The 7th Sonata is one of the three great War Sonatas - 6, 7 and 8. The four - note motif (BBC signal, opening of Beethoven's 5th and V -for victory, in this case- in Morse code)shouts out fortissimo for the 1st time on the last page of Sonata #6 (1st mvt). I have also discovered it in #8 (not having a score with me can't tell the location). It is also discernable in the victorious Finale of #7.
All these observations are meaningful only insofar as they help us with the interpretation of the work of music, otherwise they are just curiousities. In case of Prokofiev Sonatas, they introduce a powerfull element of war realities: looking for the news, longing for victory, and the victory itself. More specifically, this must prevent a pianist from playing the opening of the 2d theme in the 1st mvt of #7 "rubato", i.e. with distorted rhythm.
A quick remarque to some other questions, raised in the following entrees. Richter does not speak of it because he did not notice, just like everybody else until Wagman - and he did not publish it. For anybody at the timeimply that Procofiev refers to BBC broadcast would be to implicate themselves into listening. And the KGB officials who monitored BBC broadcasts, did not listen to Prokofiev's sonatas.
Hope it helps! Dear Mr. Braginsky: Sorry if I didn't express correctly what you said in your master class in my original post. I'm they guy who heard two master classes with Chopin Ballade No.4 on two successive days and your master class where the young 15 year old Russian played the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No.6. I look forward to a few more of your classes next week!
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#1237628 - 07/26/09 01:08 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: ruprakt]
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Full Member
Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 294
Loc: Hacienda Heights, CA
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So the answer is it might have, and if it is, then it was probably for Prokofiev only.
_________________________
"Nie Dam Sie!"
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#1238206 - 07/27/09 01:47 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: Philip Lu]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 1901
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Quoting Ruprakt on the Webern spoof I posted above: “I do hope you're joking... this was long ago discredited. LiebeKlavier's above link does a good job refuting the rumor.” Of course I was joking. Anyone who isn’t rolling on the floor after the third or fourth paragraph is either gullible, offended by the humor, or doesn't have a sense of humor. It doesn’t need to be refuted. As the writer for “About.com:Urban Legends” acknowledges in LiebeKlavier’s post: “…it was never really intended to fool anyone – it’s not that kind of hoax.” Now, on a much more serious matter, further up in the thread we have reference to Volkov’s “Testimony,” the alleged memoires of Shostokovich. This is either a hoax or not a hoax of a very serious nature, and any honest musician interpreting the intent of Shostokovich had best, at the very least, read the rebuttal to its authenticity offered by Alex Roth in the New Yorker Magazine about five years ago, and brought to our attention by wr. Here’s the link again: http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/08/the_popov_disco.htmlTomasino
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#1238657 - 07/28/09 03:51 AM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: tomasino]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Massachusetts
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Quoting Ruprakt on the Webern spoof I posted above:
“I do hope you're joking... this was long ago discredited. LiebeKlavier's above link does a good job refuting the rumor.”
Of course I was joking. Anyone who isn’t rolling on the floor after the third or fourth paragraph is either gullible, offended by the humor, or doesn't have a sense of humor. It doesn’t need to be refuted. As the writer for “About.com:Urban Legends” acknowledges in LiebeKlavier’s post: “…it was never really intended to fool anyone – it’s not that kind of hoax.” Sorry, it can be really hard to tell online sometimes.
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#1239024 - 07/28/09 04:13 PM
Re: Secret code in Prokofiev Sonata #7?
[Re: tomasino]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Massachusetts
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If there's any truth to Braginsky's tale, it must be acknowledged that Prokofiev's effort at schnookering the authorities was that of a sophomoric schoolboy. Now Webern, on the other hand, Webern was a guy who was really playing in the big leagues. Read this from the Associated Press:
Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis
By Heinrich Kincaid
(c) The Associated Press
BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official living in Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have suspected for years: that early twentieth century German composer Anton Webern and his colleagues devised the so-called "serial" technique of music to encrypt messages to Nazi spies living in the United States and Britain.
In what can surely be considered the most brazen instance of Art Imitating Espionage to date, avant garde composers of the Hitler years working in conjunction with designers of the Nazi Enigma code were bamboozling unsuspecting audiences with their atonal thunderings while at the same time passing critical scientific data back and forth between nations.
"This calls into question the entire Second Viennese School of music," announced minimalist composer John Adams from his home in the Adirondack Mountains. "Ever since I first encountered compositions by Arnold Schonberg I wondered what the hell anyone ever heard in it. Now I know."
Gunned down by an American soldier in occupied Berlin, 62 year old Anton Webern's death was until now considered a tragic loss to the musical world. At the time the U.S. Army reported that the killing was "a mistake", and that in stepping onto the street at night to smoke a cigarette Webern was violating a strict curfew rule.
It is now known that Webern was using music to shuttle Werner Heisenberg's discoveries in atomic energy to German spy Klaus Fuchs working on the Manhattan atom bomb project in New Mexico. Due to the secret nature of the project, which was still underway after the invasion of Berlin, Army officials at the time were unable to describe the true reason for Webern's murder.
Hans Scherbius, a Nazi party official who worked with Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, admitted at age eighty-seven that the Nazis secretly were behind the twelve-tone technique of composition, which was officially reviled to give it the outlaw status it needed to remain outside of the larger public purview.
"These pieces were nothing more than cipher for encoding messages," he chuckled during an interview on his balcony in Buenos Aires. "It was only because it was 'naughty' and difficult that elite audiences accepted it, even championed it."
Physicist Edward Teller, who kept a 9-foot Steinway piano in his apartment at the Los Alamos laboratory, was the unwitting deliverer of Heisenburg's data to Fuchs, who eagerly attended parties thrown by Teller, an enthusiastic booster of Webern's music.
Arnold Schonberg, the older musician who first devised the serial technique at the request of the Weimar government of Germany, composed in America to deliver bomb data stolen by Fuchs back to the Nazis, who worked feverishly to design their own atomic weapons.
As an example, Scherbius showed Associated Press reporters the score of Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra" overlaid with a cardboard template. The notes formed a mathematical grid that deciphered into German a comparison between the neutron release cross-sections of uranium isotopes 235 and 238.
Schonberg responded with a collection of songs for soprano and woodwinds that encrypted the chemical makeup of the polonium-beryllium initiator at the core of the Trinity explosion.
And in Japan, Toru Takemitsu took time out from his own neo-romanticism to transmit data via music of his nation's progress with the atom.
"The most curious thing about it," says composer Philip Glass in New York City, "is that musicians continued to write twelve-tone music after the war, even though they had no idea why it was really invented. Indeed, there are guys who are churning out serialism to this day."
Unlike the diatonic music, which is based on scales that have been agreed upon by listeners throughout the world for all of history, twelve-tone music treats each note of the chromatic scale with equal importance, and contains a built-in mathematical refusal to form chords that are pleasing by traditional standards. Known also as serialism, the style has never been accepted outside of an elite cadre of musicians, who believe it is the only fresh and valid direction for post-Wagnerian classical music to go.
"Even if this is really true," states conductor Pierre Boulez, a composer who continues to utilize serial techniques, "the music has been vindicated by music critics for decades now. I see no reason to suddenly invalidate an art form just because of some funny business at its inception."
Tomasino Let's start over then, shall we? LOL, this finally confirms all my conspiracy theories regarding Webern's 'accidental' shooting. I just wanna know how the AP got their hands on my senior thesis, they totally plagiarized this part about Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra": "The notes formed a mathematical grid that deciphered into German a comparison between the neutron release cross-sections of uranium isotopes 235 and 238." My professor was so excited with my discovery that I was handed a PHD right then and there!
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