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Can I quote you in my sig line?????


"I'm the point"

PERFECT

The thing is ... someday, maybe I will. I have no clue. I can't predict the future. If I do, I do.

But I'm not going to aim for it or assume that it's going to be part of my life, or define myself as a failure if I don't. In my experience, with some people, if I admit that I might someday want to do X, they will take it as an excuse to shove me in that direction and justify it with, "Well, you SAID you would!"

The only thing I can do in that situation is put my foot down and make completely clear that the decision is mine and mine alone, and that if it happens, it happens, but I'm not going to try to control it. That's a bit zen for some people. :-)

Well, there's something else I can do in that situation, too. Avoid them. :-D But it really is just a matter of asserting ownership. If a teacher or anyone else suggests something that they can present as helpful or useful to me in my own quest, that's fine. That's what I want from an interaction with a teacher -- wholehearted creative assistance in getting me to where I want to go, and maybe some new possibilities along the way. To me, that is a "serious teacher."

But I don't want them to push their own agenda on me according to their definition of success, or to try any sneaky tactics to do it. With kids, this is also dangerous because they can sniff out when an adult is trying to wheedle them in about a millisecond. A kid that is on the obedient side will allow themselves to be shoved and molded and may well regret it later, and a kid that is more self-directed will kick back.

I guess that's just an argument for honesty, though. Be upfront with your students as to your own motivations, know thyself, and all that happy horsepoop ...

Again, the problem being that I don't know how much ownership a kid can assert or even should. Most of them are just so young to know where they may want to go, even if they think they do.

Believe in this: Serious Teachers DO want Real Players in their studios. It's just that Real Players are in short supply. Let's face it, where I live, the great majority of piano students take lessons because other people are doing it. It's a game of "keeping up with the Joneses."

Orange County huh? I was just up in Laguna Beach. Not one music store on the whole 101 strip near there. Love the OC!

I agree with this part; however, how many young students are self-directed enough to be in their own quest? I've had students who wanted to play this piece or that piece, but they have no idea how much work is required to get there, and how much self-discipline is involved.

Not sure what you are implying. Please clarify.

Pretty sure he means there are no sheet music stores in the OC. I can only think of one that only sells sheet music.

I think we're over-thinking things a bit. In my opinion, there is only one thing that makes piano teachers serious:

Their students can play the piano well.

It doesn't matter when, how often, where, or what they play. A serious piano teacher knows how to get their students to play well, and that includes recruiting and dismissing students that you are unable to work with effectively.

Some people will argue that last point, saying it's easy to look like a good teacher if you kick all the bad students out. But there are a lot of teachers who, if they kicked all their bad students out, wouldn't have any students left at all.

There's also a popular quote that I think applies:

"The enemy of great is good."

In other words, being great is about not settling for "good enough." The minute a teacher decides that their students are "good enough" and that their last recital "wasn't bad," they are not serious about being great.

Ya, I meant I didn't see any sheet music stores or stores that sell pianos or other instruments. I hope there are some. I just didn't see any.

I have been teaching for about 8 years, but started when I was in college. I do not put my students in competitions or anything that includes students from other studios. We have 2 recitals through out the year. Once a month my students come to my house and they all play a piece from that week or a piece in progress. So I feel my kids get plenty of "stage" time. Does that mean I am not a serious teacher? I take teaching very seriously and I care tremendously about the progress of my students. In my area it takes a lot of money and time to enter kids in competitions. I have to be apart of several organizations which would cost me hundreds of dollars. That is something I am not able to do at this time. My prices are on the low side and I will be raising them this fall. Hopefully this will attract more serious students. How do I get my studio together with others to do a joint recital? I don't know any teachers in my area. How are you guys involved in the community as a music teacher and how do you get your students involved?

Thank you for that humbling insight.

You should join MTNA or other professional organizations that offer programs, even if you think it's too expensive. Frankly, if I didn't join my state's MTA and allowed my students to participate in its many programs, I would feel like I'm cheating my students.

If you join a popular branch, then you have many opportunities to work with other piano teachers in your area, and more chances for joint recitals and other ventures. Best of luck to you!

I agree totally, which is why I added:

"Again, the problem being that I don't know how much ownership a kid can assert or even should. Most of them are just so young to know where they may want to go, even if they think they do."

To some extent, a youngster does have to just trust the teacher, and the teacher has to understand that their chiefest function is to fill the student's toolbox so they can go on to build anything they want later -- when they know what they want. Which may take decades.

And even if the teacher explicitly tells them this, they may simply not be at the maturity level to understand it. It took me a looooong time.

Teaching kids is HARD ...

Maybe it's a matter of semantics. I'm not sure I agree with the implication that there is always "greatness" to be pursued, and that it's a linear progression. Perhaps I'd simply say the same thing, but only phrase it as: "Good enough doesn't mean there isn't more fun stuff out there to learn, try, and do." I think the enemy of great is boredom.

I don't think that if I do manage to develop something to reflect a messa di voce that it will make me more "great." But I do think that it will be fun, and I'm sure that if I keep attentive in life, there will be something else fun to learn and contemplate around the next corner. One should never stop exploring.

It's just a preference in phrasing, though.

May I propose the following:
Student: We are in a state of becoming and teachers are developing us - or better said, helping us develop.

Teacher: A serious teacher is dedicated to doing a good job. He'll make sure that he has the necessary abilities which I imagine is knowledge of the instrument, how to play it, and how to teach. If he's weak in any of these, he'll be seeking to improve them. He'll know what kinds of goals to set for his students, and what to do to reach them. That reaching is the job of both teacher and student so he'll be planning how to guide the student for his part too.

Whether or not there are competitions or recitals depends on whether they are needed for the student to ultimately achieve. If students need performance opportunities in order to grow properly as musicians, then if they're missing there's a problem - otherwise not. What are the goals? In general, are you reaching your milestones, is there improvement?

To some degree you also need to appear to be serious teachers. Certificates are visible proof of self-improvement, while you could also be growing professionally without getting a piece of paper for it - but who will know? A student doing well in recitals is something tangible that can be seen of your work. I would differentiate, though. Certificates could be collected as a kind of promotion. Students could be honed for recitals while the less interesting skills they need to acquire get neglected for the sake of looking good.

Is it possible that the most important achievements of a serious teacher are the ones that are least obvious?

I take issue with the idea that if performance is not taking place, the teacher is automatically not serious - and I would especially take issue if this means competitions. Again, what is the goal and is it necessary for the student's growth? It's not about how you appear, but how we develop. What if the student's circumstance is such that performance is not indicated at that time? I would think that the teacher who pushes something that is unnecessary or even counter-indicated is not serious and might even be irresponsible. Isn't the serious teacher the one who acts to benefit the growth of each student, and knows how to do so?

KS that is perfect. Not to say no one else had good points, there are many in this thread.
I believe that in order to be "serious" one needs to realize that there is no set "curriculum" if you will, and each student, whether 5, 15 or 50 will come with his own set of challenges, wants and ultimate goals.

It IS different with children. Sometimes they do need to be "pushed" to do things, becuase they haven't had enough life to decide what they like yet. There are kids that I will push into doing recitals. I would never push an adult into one.

There was a poster awhile back that had an elderly lady, 70 I think, and she came in knowing what she wanted to do. She wanted to play. That's all. Not learn theory, do competions, etc...did that teacher become less of a teacher for allowing that? In my opinion, NO! She became MORE of a teacher becuase she was open to see what her student wanted.

I think we can all agree that it is challenging, but very rewarding, to teach piano (or any instrument). Unlike most teachers, we don't have a set age for our students.

You don't tell us where you live - it may be on a ranch in central Montana. But assuming you live in a somewhat populated area, chances are, there are other piano teachers. If so, see if there's an MTNA chapter. You can use the web to find out. If necessary, email your state chapter and ask. If there isn't why not start one?

Is there a music store? If there is, I'll bet they know at least some of the other teachers.

Recitals don't have to be with just piano teachers. We combine voice, strings and piano (strangely, none of the wind teachers choose to join in).

Keep your eyes open. When you see a kid head for the piano and actually play something (in church, in a store, or where ever) ask them who their teacher is.

Just a few starter ideas for you.

The above post is very thought-provoking for me. I have been teaching beginners since 1991 and considered myself to be a "good teacher". This thread, along with a book I'm half-way through, "A Piano Teachers's Legacy" by Richard Chronister (teachings of Frances Clark), and this post in particular, make me realize I have lots of work to do to ever be a good teacher. I have 15 students in my studio and 10 are little boys under age 10. They don't practice enough, parents don't monitor their progress at home, and they don't play well. Ugh. I have work to do. Thanks for the insight here everyone.

Barb, thanks for you post. We're not here to criticize teachers, but each of us are learning from each other. Unfortunately, some are too quick to take offense when none is intended.

In my original post on this subject, I mentioned something about my expectations, as a teacher, of the student and the support from the family. I suspect that if you peel away the varnish, you'll find every serious teacher has spoken or unspoken expectations which they insist on from student and family. Thus, they get results. This doesn't mean dictatorial methods, hitting students' fingers with rulers, etc. (we all know the horror stories). When expectations are high, results generally follow.

It appears that you've suddenly just become a more serious teacher. Congratulations!

No offense taken, and none intended. I'm a newbie here, so perhaps my questions and comments will show a bit of chutzpah on my part. By some of the definitions here I am not a serious piano teacher. I'm okay with that, but I sense the implication that peope like me should just go away. Can I take a stand for the little guy?

I teach only beginners, many of them difficult or non-traditional students. I have taught intellectually and/or emotionally challenged students, I have plenty of students who come from non-musical homes and backgrounds where they get limited support and only mild interest, I have taught adults who are working on their bucket lists. I have more than my share of students who squeeze piano in among soccer, Girl Scouts, Day Care, etc. None of my students would pass the smell test of "playing the piano well." (At least according to MY definition of well.) But my students are not an end result - they're in progress.

I have taught merely a couple students who I felt had a true combination of talent, intelligence, and work ethic.

The reason I am comfortable with this variety of students is because I believe there is something in making music that should be available to everyone, not just the stars. I think we are losing hoards of children to 2-chord rock music and monotone songs because they see anything beyond rhythm and volume as "too hard." I think we give up on kids too soon. Not everyone gets it the first time, and I love being there when that light bulb finally goes on!

My goal is not to put a student on the stage as much as it is to put them in the audience - loving and understanding the sounds, and feeling part of it, and responding to it. If they do end up on stage, I'd like to believe I had a part in sparking the passion.

I DO appreciate the "serious" (or ambitious, or strict, or "master") music teachers who are able to take students to great heights. Two of my three children are pursuing music performance careers (the other was an "Outstanding Performer" on piano, but ended up as a government economist...Can't win 'em all.) They wouldn't be there without the teachers who knew when and how to push. But with my kids, those teachers didn't come till later. They started out with beloved encouragers, hand-holders, people who saw them as individuals, not products or paychecks, and gently coaxed the music out of them.

I think I'm serious. I'm just maybe serious about different things?

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, and it's offered plenty to think about.