Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Some advice on hiring a piano technician

Bill:

I'd be certainly interested in listening to Mr. Jorgensen's music. Scholars' music can be very interesting, some times more in an intellectual way, but still. I wonder what kind of compositional language he uses (meantone suggests me triadic chords, but it hasn't to be so vanilla, has it?)...

In spanish, we only use one accent per word, and only use the accute accent.

"désafinación" would be french styled :P, it's desafinación, with only the last mark.

What you mention about desafinación is a very interesting thing. Tuning is a complex matter, specially when timbre gets in the way. Have you listened to some of the modern pseudo band stuff people listens to in Mexico? I think they are, unknowingly, aiming at some kind of "pitchless" musical language. It's getting seriously weird, yet people don't seem to be aware of that (or I am just getting crazier).

The post also says in big type: STOP RECRUITING! That really draws a line in the sand, if you ask me. I have never recruited anyone to PTG. I have never "advertised" PTG. I have only given the best advice I can give based upon my own personal experience AND the experiences I have seen from so many others. "There are many fine technicians who don't belong to any organization". Well, there are so many more who belong to PTG and are, in fact, RPTs. Shall we make a count of the many, many, many "fine" technicians who don't need and would NEVER condescend to joining PTG, much less take the exams versus those who have?

I'll put it in writing just to satisfy the ridiculous notions of a few and the ugly post from Frank, yes the owner, which should be removed:

DON'T join PTG! DON'T even think about taking those STUPID exams! You can learn piano technology all on your own. There are OTHER organizations, dozens upon dozens of them. There are schools whose standards are their own, hundreds of them, all MUCH higher than PTG's. There are apprenticeships far and wide, one right in your own neighborhood. You can learn everything you need to know and far better without PTG and be better than all the rest. Go ahead, beat the odds, show everybody and get everybody to follow your path. Learn from a book written a hundred years ago, nothing else has ever been better or says anything more that you will ever need to know. Do the math. Make sure you include triangles and square root signs.

Inharmonicity has no effect on beat rates. It's a scientific fact! The Braide-White tuning is accurate to within 1/8 of a cent. Minor 6ths are the most useful tuning checks. The M3-M6 tests are far more accurate than CM3s which are useless. Find your own way; talk to no one; learn from no one; keep it all to yourself; you may only encourage competition. Never compare what you know to what anyone else knows because you know it all already.

Do I need to say it again? Never even THINK about joining PTG or taking those useless, substandard exams. They are wrong, you are right. The tuning exam is measured electronically. Only YOUR ear knows what is right!

Put that in the first post that people read with all responses locked out. That's what the "rules" are for this forum: let's all get along, no recruiting, no advertising, let's all be nice, no nasty comments or put downs. We all agree that PTG is a "fine" organization but so many, many technicians, so many very fine technicians do not belong to any of the dozens of fine organizations there are at all. They don't need or want to. They all have done just fine on their own with no help or communication from anybody else. The mere mention of PTG is offensive. The mention of exams is condescending. The suggestion to attend a seminar or convention is an outright violation of civil rights!

Let's ban PTG members from this forum! They have ruined it! They have offended beyond any possible remedy all of the many, many, many fine technicians who don't belong to any organization at all!

Erus, thanks for the accent lesson, I wondered about that. I would like to hear some of what you are talking about "getting seriously weird". If you have some sound files to send of that, I would appreciate it. Maybe it is "nouveau" or maybe it is just substandard tech work. I have heard Latino bands with very interesting "desafinación". I liked the way they sound just as they are. I have heard Cajun musicians from Louisiana that also have their own kind of Pythagorean tuning type of sound. None is necessarily more right or wrong.

Bill:

Would you care for some cheese with your whine?

Bill, the idea of an open forum is steeped in the tradition (and yes, rules) that encourage all to feel comfortable to engage the discussions. There is nothing wrong with being proud of ones achievements, however you wish to measure that; be it qualified membership in an organization, accreditation from a school or correspondence course, or even learning alongside a mentor or in factory trained environment. These options DO exist for technicians and I would not be so bold to compare the end results of any to another. The worst case techs from any of them would probably not measure up to the best techs of another and vice versa. Factor into this the aspect of having a good or a bad day as we all do, our ability to forget, ignore, or lose over time what we had been tested on, and measurement itself loses much of its weight unless it is continued on a regular basis. Much of this also has to do with honesty, diligence and other (meaningfully untestable)attributes of people. The forum owner and moderators recognize that you cannot paint everyone with the same brush and that we don't need the vast plethora of options other than the PTG (which you sarcastically refer to) to validate this policy. One sole tech walking his own path that holds his own is enough to blow your highly polarized views on this out of the water; it would be unfair to call him/her less than what they are based on their choice of belonging to an organization or not. Some things in life are not black or white and reside somewhere in the gray area. This happens to be one of them and the forum owners statement is neither "ugly" or inaccurate... it keeps things civil and respectful in a medium that tends to occasionally attract people who are neither.

Emmery, with all due respect, I completely disagree. The "Behavior" post does exactly what it says for us not to do. It is inflammatory, accusatory and condescending. Furthermore it locks out all opportunities to challenge it or refute it. If we are all supposed to be comfortable, then why are PTG members being told NOT to offer the kind of advice they would naturally be inclined to offer?

I'm afraid your example of the one guy who did it all by himself and is the best is a one in 10,000 type of example. To tell everyone they don't need to investigate PTG membership just because a few exceptional people have succeeded without it is to very frankly give bad advice. Advice can be taken or not as any individual chooses.

I strongly object to the "Behavior" post characterizing such advice as "recruitment" or "advertising". It is neither. No PTG member has any particular interest nor has nothing to personally gain by persuading any other individual to join PTG or take the exams. That kind of advice is offered to a person in that person's interest, not in the interest of the person giving the advice.

The PWF owner would do well to take down that post and replace it with a "guidelines" post and not engage in the very behavior he seeks to quell. From what I can see, the complaints he refers to are from people who feel threatened somehow by PTG. PTG does not have any interest in taking away business from any piano technician. It is interested in the very opposite of that: providing continuing education so that its member technicians may better be able to excel in their business.

The unfortunate response to the mere mention of PTG or the suggestion that any individual may better him or herself by seeking membership is by all too many, is defensive anger. That makes me uncomfortable. The "Behavior" post makes me feel uncomfortable. Do I not have the same right to feel comfortable as anyone else? So, I disagree with you completely, in my opinion, the post is quite ugly and quite inaccurate.

I have the right to express that. I have the right to give the kind of advice I believe to be the best and so does everyone else, no matter what that advice is. Everyone also has the right to debate and point out the perceived flaws in the logic of another. From my point of view, I see rules broken all the time. Tooner just broke one of the Behavior rules in his last post. I don't respond to that kind of nonsense. That you, Emmery for your opinion and for the opportunity to respond to it.

Bill, I don't believe the responses to the OP actually contravened the behavior posting. Somebody gave advice to go to the PTG listings and I simply added that there are also other viable choices too, if looking for a competent tech. If your neck of the woods doesn't bear this out because all the non RPT's went out of business, it could be coincidence or a multitude of other reasons. I know of a large city in the USA with more than 10+ techs, all men. Several female techs have come and gone over the years....would you like to comment on why that was?....I didn't think so.
My analogy of even one guy walking his own path was only to show that respect is due to all on their own merits, lest we easily digress to the same level or manner of thinking that racists, bigots and discriminators do...jumping to conclusions based on shallow, limited, often convoluted reasoning.
When you express your opinion about all the non PTG members going out of business in your area and such generalizations as as to imply their universal incompetence, fear of testing ect..you invite responses in kind that reflects unfavorably on the very organization you belong to.
As for the owner of PW being condescending...your still posting here so I wouldn't say its out of line, after all, the one who pays the piper gets to call the tune. I myself agree with his sentiments because it strives to be fair to all, protects him from legal problems, and allows the forum to continue. Policies, rules and things such as the behavior posting are not intended to keep us all "comfortable", that is an impossible task. They are there to keep people/businesses from actually getting hurt (I'm not talking about emotions). In reality, you have a right to express yourself the same as throwing a punch; when generalizing, that right stops at the end of another persons nose, even a non RPT nose...regardless of how much you think they deserve it.
You may respond, and I'll read it, but I am done with this and hope we get back to basics as the last paragraph in the Behavior in the Forum advises us to.

Bill:

Clean up your own act before criticizing mine. The post of yours that I responded to is disgustingly sarcastic, disrespectful of other opinions (while you demand respect for yours) and really just shows that you are a sore loser. In other words: Stop whining like a baby!

Isn't it curious? The only guys I have learned something from are all RPTs! I can mention: Randy Potter, George Defebaugh, James Coleman Sr., Arthur Reblitz, Bill Bremmer, Virgil Smith, Larry Fine, Kent Swafford, Dave Carpenter, Dean Reyburn, Albert Sanderson, Rick Baldassin, Delwin Fandrich and many others.

People that has no title or certification from a recognized or well reputed institution is not able to teach others what they know. Either because they don't want to or because they can't even if they want to. Sometimes they are too jealous to reveal their secrets; sometimes they are not sure of what they know and are afraid they can be caught in an impasse and it is understandable: they don't have any certification other than their own; sometimes even if they try to transmit what they know they can not because their knowledge is not well structured. Sometimes because simply they have nothing to teach.

And, "au contraire", people able and disposed to teach, always searches to join such organizations (like PTG), to be in contact with people commited with their profession and willing to evolve and make technology and science advance.

I am not, myself, a certified technician, so I strive to carefully listen and read what people like the ones mentioned above have to say or write. And I try to learn all I can from them.

But I must be aware of people that say they know everything and are not able to give a clear answer to simple questions like the ones I posted to UnrightTooner and he refused to answer.

See my post:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...20at%20Tuning%20Contigu.html#Post1222912

Instead he launched a new topic that was an insult to Bill Bremmer, in which Tooner wanted to highlight the "errors" in Bill's post. BTW, Tooner was not able to point out any of those supposed "errors".

So, I disagree with those that say that one can become a fine technician without joining any organization. Piano Technology has evolved to a point where it is impossible for someone to discover it all by himself! And it is not by reading books that one can learn it all. So an organization like the PTG is necessary to anyone who wants to become a skilled piano technician. Even a forum like the Pianoworld Tuner-Technicians Forum is a great resource for all of us. So why deny the obvious? PTG is a great organization. And RPTs are great technicians. They are not unique, they are not the only ones, but they are great.

Gadzar:

I am reluctant to answer questions that are not made “in earnest.” It doesn’t seem that you want to know the answer. It seems that you want to make the point that not getting the answer has some greater meaning. That it is a proof that folks that belong to the PTG are inherently better in some way.

I used to believe that CM3s had to be the key to setting an ET. It just makes sense. But I could not make them work as well as they ought. Then I looked at tuning theory deeper. I now know that CM3s are not everything that they are advertised as being, regardless of how popular they are.

If you want to continue the debate of RPT/PTG over non-RPT/PTG go ahead (without me). If you want to seriously discuss tuning theory, that would be great! Starting a new Topic would be appropriate.

Thank you for your comments Rafael. I would like to comment about women "coming and going". The Madison Chapter has three women technicians, all RPT's. Two of them for more than 25 years, one for nearly 20. All of them have supported themselves and their families in a full time business. There have been a few other women in the area I have seen come and go but fewer women than men.

I also know of many prominent women RPT's around the country. Concert technician types. The chairperson of the tuning division of PTG's Examination and Test Standards Committee is a woman. Two of the most highly regarded instructors at the North Bennett Street school are women and both are RPT's. They both also strongly encourage their graduates to join PTG and take the exams.

I know an individual who attended a well known piano tuning school. He briefly joined PTG but could not pass even the written exam. I gave him a trial tuning exam and that failed too. He used a 4ths & 5ths temperament sequence, believes in ET and ET only, says HTs make him "cringe" but offers only Reverse Well as his version of ET. It makes me cringe. He does happen to be a personal friend because I know him from a singing group I was in at one time. I don't hire him when I need help and I don't give him referrals because I consider his work to be substandard. He does nothing to try to improve his skills and has to work at another kind of job to support himself. He tunes one or two pianos a month for "extra money" and now uses an ETD.

On the other hand, I know of an individual who took a correspondence course, the one that teaches 4ths & 5ths. He joined PTG and went to its training sessions and took tuning tutoring from me. He learned how to incorporate CM3s in the sequence he was used to using and passed the exams and is now an RPT. He got to go to the convention that year free because he earned a scholarship. The chapter paid his expenses to go to the PTG home office for training. He works full time, supports a wife and growing family on his income as a full time piano technician. I hire him when I need help and refer work to him regularly.

The people who went out of business here is not an opinion, it is a fact. They scoffed at and put down PTG, said they didn't need it and would never join. They mocked the exam process. They said their own standards were higher. Two of them committed fraud. They went out of business. Those are all facts, not opinions. Whatever implication anyone may take from that is in their own mind. It is also a fact that the ONLY full time piano technicians there are in this area are all PTG members. The only one who isn't an RPT is well qualified and is in the process of taking the exams.

By saying this, citing these facts, it does not imply that all non PTG members and all PTG members who are not RPTs are incompetent, under skilled and underemployed. It merely denotes a trend. It does suggest however, that if a person is looking for a competent technician, there is a better chance of finding a good one if that person is an RPT. That is the subject of this thread.

Am I to have to say, "Anyone who has a piano tuning business is just as likely to provide good service as not"? Am I NEVER to suggest that contacting an RPT is a good and reasonable course of action because it may offend someone who has chosen not to have any affiliation with PTG? Am I NEVER to suggest PTG to someone who aspires to becoming a piano technician because it may offend someone who has not made that choice? Are those the "rules"?

You will probably not get an answer. Straw men don't post.

The rules are posted up top of this forum. There is plenty of information about this place in the information sections. If you would like to discuss forum rules, or changes, speak with the owner.
Preaching to the choir here, well you are lamenting to the wrong people.
This whole subject is done a long time back for all of us. I guess you will just have to learn to live with it. Or make another choice.

I see it this way, It works on three paths simultaneously

1. Good techs are willing to join an organization like PTG, so they become RPTs.

2. PTG forms good techs, via chapter meetings, conferences, conventions, books, the journal, etc...

3. Bad techs don't become RPTs because they fail at the exams or don't take the exams.

The end result is that good techs are RPTs and RPTs are good techs.

There is a little, very little, chance for an RPT to be a bad tech.

So when someone is looking for a good tech he better searches in the PTG listings.

I think there are many examples of "good techs" who choose other paths, in spite of your thesis to the contrary...and more importantly, there are also many exmples of "good techs" who may have initually failed, but then ultimately passed the exams to become a RPT.

RPT status is a very honorable goal. My hat is off to anybody who aspires to this status.

Lets not devolve into bickering over professional standing, again...please?

RPD

Try getting a referral from your local music store. These people have pianos tuned very frequently by good tuners. they know all the tuners in their area. They also know who is good and who isn't.

RPD:

It's a tar baby, just stay away from it. The Pope will learn this when word gets out that he did not use a RPT.

Oh Jeez...now the POPE is in the mud here!