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I have been having piano lessons now for over 6 months but have only been using a synth action keyboard but now feel it would be better to get a weighted hammer action keyboard. I have the change to get either a used MP8 II or an ex demo RD -700gx both for a good price. I tried the roland and a Kawai CA 71 which I think has the same action as the MP8. It was a close thing but marginally I prefered the sound of the roland but am not sure about the action.. Think I would need to try for longer which was not really possible as I had to travel a long way. I am concerned about key ware issues on the Roland. Any comments ?

This may not be a help, but I used to own a Kawai MP9500. That DP has a great action, I think the newest Kawai model MP8II has a lighter action which is a bit piano-light. If you practice classical piano, that may be a drawback.
I auditioned the RD700GX heavily, but I didn't like it. The sound was just "boxy" to me, and the action was very light, almost synthlike. I've never had a Yamaha piano before, but I ended up with a CP300. I don't regret it. The 700GX will have have a better tactile experience, with the plastic wood thing going on. The keys on the CP300 feels plastic, but the action is great.
The action is heavy for a DP (though fairly light compared to an AC), which is good for technique. Playing classical pieces on this piano doesn't feel easier than on a real piano, which is a good thing.

The Yamaha is about 4-5 years old now, but still holds up well. The sound is a bit digital/static compared to the real thing as every DP is, but very dynamic and clear.
The interal speakers are VERY handy, and sounds great.

If by "key wear issues" you mean the synthetic ivory going "bald" that shouldn't be a problem. Only a few early models had issues with this, and my own HP-207 is showing no unusual wear. Actally, if it's a demo unit, you should see any unusual wear right away, anyhow. It's probably been played quite a bit already.

If you mean unreliability or action problems, than some people have complained about this with the Kawai, but I've never heard of Roland action problems. The Kawai will not necessariy give you any problems either, but the wooden action does need to be adjusted and wood is more fragile than the plastic actions.

Basically both are excellent units (as is the Yamaha CP300 that Karneveil mentioned), and any of these would be a good choice. It's really up to you on sound, touch and features.

Actually, the HP-207 might be the optimal choice if you're going for a stationary DP. As good as the CP300 is, it feels less than authentic because a real piano will have an even resistance all the way when pressing down a key. The CP300 has an initial resistance, and then less. It's hard to put into words, but as I've always said - nothing can compare to practicing on a real piano (upright or grand).
DP will always entail a certain compromise in authentic tactile and sonic experience, but the CP300 will do just fine, and should do minimal damage to your classical technique (I hope...)..

Regarding the even resistance all the way down, I thought Roland put the escapement in to simulate the slight UNEVENESS of a real piano - i.e - the feeling of "throwing" the hammers.

I used to have a Roland RD300S, and it did have an unrealistic uneveness, though. Right at the top of the key travel, the keys would stick slightly. As pressure increased, they would suddenly "give", which is most certainly NOT authentic, and it made soft playing very difficult. I think it was the lubricating grease, and after playing it a bit, it would get somewhat better, as the grease warmed up. If the CP300 has this kind of problem then that's not right, but somehow I don't think you mean this, do you? If it does suffer from this, I'd agree - avoid. The way to test for it is to press down very softly, and very slowly increase pressure. If it suddenly "gives" (more than a real piano), then it's not right. (this is all IMHO, I am not a piano technician)

FWIW, I have a Kawai MP9000 now, and it's served me well for home use for many years. It's an extremely nice machine. It was a huge jump up in action quality, too. Come to think of it, at the time I was also looking at the Yamaha P80, and I noticed that keys-sticking-at-the-top-of-travel problem on them too, so I avoided it. The Kawai is velvetty smooth. If I hadn't experienced the problem beforehand, I never would have noticed it I don't think - it's a subtle problem which many would probably not notice in the store.

Greg.

Between those 2, I'd go for the Roland. It's got the best action of any portable digital piano I've ever played. Feels like a broken-in acoustic. It also has better connectivity in terms of pedals. But I don't think either of them perform as well as Yamaha's digital pianos or Pianoteq. So I wouldn't restrict myself to them just because they seem like a good deal used/demo. I'm sure you could find used/demo Yamahas for less.

*waits for Gyro to recommend a 61 key synth*

Btw, even if the CP300 does suffer from a bit of "initial key stick", it can't be that bad, because there's an *extremely* accomplished pianist on YouTube that has one. (I flicked him a PM and asked him ;^)

Greg.

Eh, I think you misunderstood me. It was a bad choice of words. What I meant was that the keys on a real AP feels more "firm" and have greater overall (also smoother) resistance when playing. There is no escapement on the CP300. I know what you are referring to, but the Yamaha does not suffer from this.
My biggest gripe about DPs is that the keys are usually rather light for a piano, and are unrealistically easy to play. In this area the CP300 is certainly better than RD700GX, which has a VERY light action (even lighter than the Clavia Stage). I also found the sound lacking clarity, and playing classical pieces on the Roland just connected poorly with me.
There are APs out there with light actions obviously, but from personal experience playing on a heavier acoustic is better for developing finger independence/control and technique.

This is my opinion anyway, I'm very happy with getting the CP300.
The Roland HP-207 has a great action though.

Ah, ok - sorry about that. I think I recall that the P80 did not have a hammer action - completely different machine. (and from a different era) FWIW I had also tried the RD500, which did have a hammer action, and it did not suffer from key-stick.

Greg.

They're virtually the same. The P80 has GHD action, which was replaced with the GHE action. If you look at the schematics, you wouldn't know the difference. They both use a combination of tension and hammer. Even the GH3 action is the same thing except it's got extra sensors for supposedly faster repeats and maybe some other things.

Basically, Yamaha hasn't done much at all to improve their portable DP actions in at least 10 years. I feel at this point they should at least offer the GH3 on some of their portables.

Ok. It didn't feel very "hammer like" to me - it felt more like the RD300S. The literature said "simulated hammer action", and that's how it felt. (maybe it wasn't actually the P80 - it was a long time ago indeed)
EDIT: Maybe what happened is that I had *misinterpreted* the literature, and I assumed that it was some kind of *weighted* action, so I had made up my mind that it wasn't going to feel authentic. In any case, I was so paranoid about key-stick that I tested that very carefully, and I noticed some, so I avoided it. Despite all this, it seems that it gets excellent reviews for action on Harmony Central, so I give up.

Btw, coming back to "uneveness", I'm a bit puzzled now. Roland advertise the escapement on their RD700GX as giving a "slight click", which is supposed to be more authentic. Yet we are saying that a real grand has a constant feel all the way down, which doesn't tally. I guess the CP300 has a different kind of "uneveness", which isn't authentic, then?

Greg.

Hehe...
I'm not an expert by any means, but this escapement is only felt when playing VERY soft. Escapement is a bit of a gimmick I think, because it's very easy to reproduce the way Roland does it. Give me keys with smooth and heavy resistance, and really fast key return. That's way, way more important.
I think a real AP feels different, because of a certain amount of inertia you have to overcome from the hammers/weights. My previouc DP, Kawai MP9500, had real hammers and weights (and wooden keys), and felt more authentic than the Yamaha CP300. However, the key return on that keyboard is a bit slow again.
Unfortunately with DPs you can't really win. It's always finding the "lesser evil"..
Still, the key-to-note connection on the CP300 is very good, and is overall a very good DP buy IMO.
(Sorry if I'm giving you a headache.. )

All in all, do you want to play some pop tunes and maybe some easy classical/blues/jazz stuff? Get a DP, no sweat..
Do you want to become a fairly accomplished pianist with a strong classical technique, get as much practice on a real AC piano as possible.
I find the cheaper, smaller Yamaha uprights have a very good action (better than any digital I've tried), and you can also get the silent mod with a midi/sound-module included on all models. This way you can play an acoustic piano late at night, just as a DP.

So to sum up:
Portable digital: Yamaha CP300
Stationary digital: Roland HP207
Acoustic piano: Small, cheap Yamaha upright models have better action than any DP, and can be played silently.
Whew!

PS: This is MY opinion, and opinions vary...

Thanks for the clarification. I briefly tried the 700GX the other day and I thought it was very good - I really liked it. You've got me curious now, though, and I want to go back and do a side by side with an acoustic grand.

Greg.

The only REAL difference between Kawai's flagship DP action and most other DP actions is that their "hammers" are thrown behind the keys, while most other DP actions have the hammers thrown underneath the keys. That whole "Kawai's action feels like the real thing because it throws hammers" is misleading, because they all throw hammers.

I think Yamaha's actions tend to be easier to work with because in addition to the hammers, they use springs. While that may sound like cheating, I do believe it helps give them a faster return that better mimics the return of keys on a real piano, even though a real piano doesn't use such springs. The advantage real pianos have over DP's is escapement. Yamaha's new GH3 action supposedly reproduces the effect of escapement by allowing you to repeat notes at shallower depths. Frankly, I'd rather have that than a phony escapement gimmick. Of course, I'd love to have both! And Roland's PHA Ivory Feel on the RD700GX is still the best I've played on any portable DP.

So again, between the two, I'd go for the Roland. More flexible pedal expandability, 20 pounds lighter, better action (in my opinion). But if I didn't have a gun to my head, I'd go for a Yamaha CP33 or P155.

True enough, but if you have looked inside a Kawai MP9500 (or the newer MP8 models), you'll see that the mechanics resembles much closer what goes on in a real piano than the usual digital stage piano. So there *is* a difference.

PS: The CP300 has many poor sounds, expect for "Mellow Piano 1". The RD700GX has better overall samples. If your not too picky about building technique, or have regular access to an AP, then go for RD700GX.
IMO, for pure piano simulation, the CP300 is a better overall package.

Glad you mentioned Pianoteq. I have been using this with an Access Virus Ti which has a very good synth action keyboard and have been getting quite good results. This was partly the reason I wanted a stage piano as it would be more convenient using it. Plus, it takes up less room and there are more option in the way it can be used. Also it takes up less space.

Listening to what you have all said I think I am leaning toward the Roland.

Briefly compared the RD700GX action side by side to a Yamaha baby grand. I think there *is* a sense of "throwing" the hammers on the grand, quite similar to the Roland. I still think the Roland feels very good and as a somewhat average home pianist only, I'd be really happy with it.

Greg.

sullivang, IMO the biggest difference between an acoustic action and Yamaha's graded hammer actions is that when you softly press a key on an acoustic there's a feeling of beginning to set a mass into motion, whereas with Yammy's actions the resistance is the same throughout the entire range of key movement - sort of like pressing on the end of a lever.

When I got a digital baby grand which has a Detoa action for an acoustic vertical, I could do a 180 on the bench and compare it to my Yammy P80. The difference was unmistakable. That said, when switching from soft press to hard strike, the only difference I felt was that the Yammy action was - as has been previously posted - a little on the light side.

jscomposer, I think that you're right re the extra sensor being the only real difference. (A couple of years back, someone who said he'd bought the tech manual for Yammy's Natural Action posted that that action mechanism is different.)

I like very much that Yamaha has built a reputation for dependability and we do see the occasional post re the company replacing actions which were out of warranty. Really hard to beat that combo, IMO.

After that it's software piano of choice and a set of studio quality headphones. I'm playing Galaxy II at the moment. Have been auditioning their Bosendorfer for the last couple of weeks. Distinctive, warm tone, a little bass heavy, somewhat glassy in the (mellow) treble, and a huge dynamic range which makes it necessary for me to do a better job of controlling strike pressure.

I've been reading the manual on-line of the Roland RD-700GX to find out exactly how you can modify the pedals.

As I understand there are 3 pedal jacks:

- The DAMPER
- FC1
- FC2

I have figures out what the DAMPER is, no problem. But then I come to a halt. The FC1/FC2 seems to be used to shift the octaves up down.

NOTHING about sostenuto or sustain! Are the RD-700GX missing sostenuto and sustain pedal functionality?

If not, how is it turned on?

And last, is the pedal EV-7 better than EV-5 ? Or is there a nice Roland 3 pedals kit somewhere?

Hi Huygens,

On page 107 of the RD700GX manual under Assigning the Pedal Function... the second cell under Values shows CC33-CC95 (MIDI Control Change numbers). This range includes CC66 for Sostenuto and CC67 for Soft Pedal. Just assign those control numbers to FC1 and FC2.

Cheers,