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#1011010 - 02/23/08 01:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
Yikes! I'll have all of those assignments done in a couple of weeks. Maybe months. See you guys then. ;\)

On the chromatic stuff... you said do a chromatic scale up and down.... and then accent the downbeats? Downbeats?

Thanks for the assignments. I haven't practiced the dragging thing yet at all, so, we'll see how that goes. And with the melody? I think I've forgotten the melody at this point. ;\)

Seriously, do you mean mix my solo lines in among the melody (please no)? Or, play the melody and then solo on the chorus? I have tried throwing little fills in where the whole notes are. That doesn't always work out so well though. \:\( The melody usually ends up dragging, but not in a good way. Like by half a measure or something. Back to trying to stick too many notes in I suppose. [/b]
Of course you know I meant UPBEATS ;\) You're too advanced now to be confused by my typos.

I mean play the tune like jazz. Head + Solo + Head. Always playing the head is good because it supplies the ideas for the solo.

As much as possible you want to take the character of the head and put into your solo. For ideas, some people will take part of the melody and extrapolate from that. So this is why it's always good to keep the head in mind.

On AL the head has a bunch of long notes in it. Which kind of suggests a structure. That's a good takeoff point which is the way I've given my own solo examples. You can be all eighth note and chromatic by the time you get to the end of the tune but often it's good to build up slowly from the melody.
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#1011011 - 02/23/08 01:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Pre-composing is not a bad thing. If you precompose a hundred different variations you'll be in good shape.
[/b]
ALL RIIIIIGHT!!!!! I never thought of precomposing. This is going to be fun \:D [/b]
Barb, I give you this advice because I sense some hesitation so getting those fingers used to certain shapes will solve that. At the beginning, one will play only certain patterns but you build up enough of this over time to sound more authentic and then eventually your ears take over and your fingers can duplicate what you hear.

If you hesitate, then we also lose the swing feel you're working so hard to create and I want you to sound less stop-and-go.
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#1011012 - 02/23/08 01:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
BTW guys and gals, the chromatic scale, and repeating notes, and arpeggiating, and space, are all good little tricks to give you time to think of what to play next. From experience, I know it gets better and then it mostly comes from inside your head and not the fingers.

It takes awhile to get there though so for the moment, be aware of these techniques to get you through the humps.
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#1011013 - 02/24/08 11:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Deeluk, thanks for the explanation.

Here's Autumn melody with 2+3 voicing.

http://www.box.net/shared/mxdsgn9wc4

I am working on a new solo improv but not good enough to post.

Rosa

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#1011014 - 02/24/08 12:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Hi Rosa, I think you have the wrong notes on the RH.

The last note on top should be the 9th of the chord and the RH should not move as you move from II to V chord. Only the LH moves.

So LH starts with 1/7 RH starts with 3/5/9 on Am7
On D7, RH stays put, and LH goes to 1/3 of D7.

The LH seems to be OK.

The approach here is the use of voice leading to minimize hand movements in the RH while also using the sound of the 9th and 13th (on the dominant).
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#1011015 - 02/25/08 01:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
 Quote:


The last note on top should be the 9th of the chord and the RH should not move as you move from II to V chord. Only the LH moves.
Jazzwee, that's what I did in my last recording and have the 9th on top.

But for this recording I tried to put the melody note on top but many times that melody tone is not a 9th note, so the 9th note has to go underneath and that's what I tried to do.

Anyway if this is too difficult for me at the moment, I'll work on my solos and come back to this at a later time.

Rosa \:\)

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#1011016 - 02/25/08 02:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Hi Rosa, it's not difficult but the trick is (1) you should have no motion on the RH to go from ii-V, and (2) the top note was the root so you just need to review the actual note positions. Do this without melody since this is a comping voicing. This will expose you to jazzy voicings.

I'll post a different Lesson on two handed voicings that are good for AL melody.
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#1011017 - 02/25/08 02:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rosa2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Hong Kong
Good, I want to get an exposure to jazzy voicings and get some of those sounds into my playing so I will wait for your lesson.

Meanwhile I am really having a lot of fun using your Lessons 11-14 theories for RH soloing with those scales & chromatic notes.

Your lessons really make it very EASY to understand and to do, particularly for beginners like me to break into w/o much frustration.

As you said, hitting the right notes only count for 25% so probably it is better to work on phrasing, to be able to accent on the offbeat to make it sound jazzy -- that part I find hard to do.

Rosa

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#1011018 - 02/25/08 02:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Rosa, you know, for something to sound jazzy, all you need is an authentic swing feel. It's at least 75% of the equation. You could be playing simple broken chords and if it's swung correctly, you will sound good.

This is why I keep focusing on everyone's offbeats accents. This is so key. Learning to pick the right notes can take time but learning to swing can be started much more easily.

But as you can see from the humungous amount of discussion about it here, it's difficult to pick up. So early I'd put at least 50% of my attention on learning to swing.
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#1011019 - 02/26/08 09:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
LaValse Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1224
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
Hi jazzwee,

I went to an impromptu meal after the rugby this weekend(*) and somebody took their guitar, so I grabbed the AL leadsheet. Usually when I'm asked to play the piano in a 'meal context' I go blank and think "Um, I can't play anything".

But - messing around with AL on piano and guitar was completely different - lotsa fun with people singing along and I was able to do it after a few drinks whereas my classical 'ability' seems to crash and burn after a sip...

So just a note to say (again) thanks for the thread... I'm way behind the coalface, but still hanging in there...

(*)Well done England - for maybe the first time in history the whole of Wales was rooting for you...

\:\)

PS: I showed everybody how to make a nice jazz sounds by playing 17+359s - they were amazed and all had a go...
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#1011020 - 02/26/08 10:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hi All,

I'm trying to climb out of the big bottomless pit of trying to precompose rhythms for the 2-5-1 progressions. I've been trying different patterns, only to come back and ditch them.

Finally, some acceptable rhythms came to me last night while singing away in the shower - which means that before going to sleep, I had to go write them down. \:D

You will hear a rhythm pattern for the first 4 measures that is then repeated in the next 4 measures. I call that Pattern A.

Next I have a 2 measure pattern that is repeated in the next 2 measures. Guess what - that's Pattern B

The rhythm pattern for the last 4 measures is on the fly - not precomposed.

By doing your math, you'll see this is only the first 16 measures of AL. I did compose a new 2 measure rhythm pattern that would be repeated in the bridge. Just haven't recorded the bridge yet.

I made sure I had enough quarter notes in a row to try to get them detached. I also arpeggiated the first F#m7b7 in a hopefully more interesting way.

http://www.box.net/shared/raz0cf0g08

Jazzwee, is it back to the drawing board for me?
OR
Should I finish the song using this approach?
(Of course, next time I play it, the notes will be different - rhythms will be the same, though.)

Hey - where is everyone? Hopefully not in that big bottomless pit!
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#1011021 - 02/26/08 10:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Nice Barb! I like it!

As for me, I haven't had much time at the piano the past couple of days. I'm still trying to hit the correct scale on the turnaround and add some arp patterns to my playing. Along with working on the melody. I joked about forgetting the melody. When I sat down to play it, I actually did trip up in a few spots. Not so sure I'm able to drag the beat very well. Hopefully I'll be able to post something soon.

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#1011022 - 02/26/08 10:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks, Deeluk. We'll see what the boss has to say on this one.

That drag the beat thing is a real trip. My husband tells me to "just relax the RH". Easy to say, hard to do.

Hi LaValse - Glad to see you're still hanging in there... and performing for others - WAY TO GO!
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011023 - 02/26/08 12:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by LaValse:
Hi jazzwee,

I went to an impromptu meal after the rugby this weekend(*) and somebody took their guitar, so I grabbed the AL leadsheet. Usually when I'm asked to play the piano in a 'meal context' I go blank and think "Um, I can't play anything".

But - messing around with AL on piano and guitar was completely different - lotsa fun with people singing along and I was able to do it after a few drinks whereas my classical 'ability' seems to crash and burn after a sip...

So just a note to say (again) thanks for the thread... I'm way behind the coalface, but still hanging in there...

(*)Well done England - for maybe the first time in history the whole of Wales was rooting for you...

\:\)

PS: I showed everybody how to make a nice jazz sounds by playing 17+359s - they were amazed and all had a go... [/b]
LaValse, I was wondering what happened to you. I thought it was all the sailing stuff that got you occupied \:D It's not even 'Opening Day' at the YC's yet...

Stay Tuned as I'm preparing another voicing lesson that's different from 17+359...
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#1011024 - 02/26/08 12:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb that's excellent! I slowed down the MIDI so I can really check your articulation and the timing/rhythm looks good.

Now I'd like you to see if you can play this with rootless LH voicings, just whole notes first. Make it lighter than the RH.

I just want to see if you can get both integrated. Play it slow if you want.

On the quarter notes, make them slightly longer and cut them off abrubtly but cut it off at a point that will give it better swing, I think almost at full value. This is hard to describe so at least make them longer and I'll listen again and see how it works. Your eighth notes sound great and the acccents are really doing their job.
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#1011025 - 02/26/08 12:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by deeluk:
Nice Barb! I like it!

As for me, I haven't had much time at the piano the past couple of days. I'm still trying to hit the correct scale on the turnaround and add some arp patterns to my playing. Along with working on the melody. I joked about forgetting the melody. When I sat down to play it, I actually did trip up in a few spots. Not so sure I'm able to drag the beat very well. Hopefully I'll be able to post something soon. [/b]
Hey Deeluk, in the turnaround, if you hit the C# somewhere in there it will sound like the D scale. Since scale of G is only different because of this one note, focusing on it will solve your issue (and of course don't hit C).

BTW - on the melody, all of you might notice that both Jeff Bauer and I (and Keith Jarrett) don't play the melody as in the original. We all simplify the B section or play it differently.
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#1011026 - 02/26/08 12:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
deeluk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Hey Deeluk, in the turnaround, if you hit the C# somewhere in there it will sound like the D scale. Since scale of G is only different because of this one note, focusing on it will solve your issue (and of course don't hit C).

BTW - on the melody, all of you might notice that both Jeff Bauer and I (and Keith Jarrett) don't play the melody as in the original. We all simplify the B section or play it differently. [/b]
Yup, exactly what I've been trying to do. So far, I usually forget that the first half of the turnaround should be where the C# is and don't end up hitting it until the 2nd half where it doesn't belong. \:\( I'm close though. Thanks.

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#1011027 - 02/26/08 12:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Or the other solution is to stay away from C and C#...then you don't have to change the scale. That's probably even easier.
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#1011028 - 02/26/08 12:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks, boss. Now LH? You show no mercy! I guess it was inevitable. I'll get my LH out of hiding. \:D

After practicing Donna Lee so much, those eighth note accents are no longer an issue. Those quarter notes are a bear, though. I guess that's why I avoided them in solos. Bouncing, swinging quarter notes is definitely what I need to concentrate on.

Funny, you slow down the midi to make sure that things are right. I like speeding it up to 150 to hear what it SHOULD sound like - some day, year, decade.
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#1011029 - 02/26/08 01:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Funny, you slow down the midi to make sure that things are right. I like speeding it up to 150 to hear what it SHOULD sound like - some day, year, decade. [/b]
I did both (fast and slow). Sometimes it takes a while to see what wasn't hitting me right. So I had to listen to it over and over again at different speeds. I even tapped my finger to it and then I realized it was the quarters that was bothering me. Hey, it's not bad when I have to look hard \:D

I just want to make sure it was fully authentic sounding. Have you ever listened to Brad Mehldau? He has quite a swinging way of detaching is quarter notes. I'm actually practicing to do it as precisely as he has. He drags it a little too and just cuts it off at the right moment. Maybe I'll post a Youtube.
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#1011030 - 02/26/08 01:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Here's one Barb. It's heavy on quarter notes. But this is not even a swing tempo still he swings his quarters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ITJEf624M&feature=related
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#1011031 - 02/26/08 01:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Brad Mehldau playing Blues with Kenny Barron. Pay attention to the quarter notes. There's a lot of it. He drags it and then detaches it and it somehow lands on the second note of a triplet or somewhere around there. He doesn't swing his eighths hard. He relies on landing it on the right spot in time against the rhyhtm section, accomplished usually via dragging.

This is a pretty sophisticated technique that I've observed and shows such and advanced appreciation of rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q97V_CSnqz0

Check out the quarter notes at 1:47
See how he ends his phrases on 3:26 or thereabouts +/-.
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#1011032 - 02/26/08 01:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
This one, the beginning is almost all quarter notes. Very pronounced dragging and it swings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRciRFvRpL0&feature=related
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#1011033 - 02/26/08 01:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Brad again - Riverman. This one is one of my favorite Mehldau tunes because this gets pretty hairy as he builds it up. Lots of quarter notes here too. It's a stylistic thing with him.

Did I ever tell you I'm a big Mehldau fan? Of course I don't have any idea how to play like him \:D

part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpUznqHJEZE&feature=related
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eogNru_bwiU&feature=related
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#1011034 - 02/26/08 01:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q97V_CSnqz0

Check out the quarter notes at 1:47
See how he ends his phrases on 3:26 or thereabouts +/-. [/b]
Gotcha. Thank you for the details on exactly where to look. I'm recording those quarters and will be practicing his articulation along with the master.

Jazzwee, you are a FANTASTIC MENTOR
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"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011035 - 02/26/08 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
I just posted and here are 2 more from you. Yes, I too love Brad Mehldau.
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011036 - 02/26/08 01:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Barb, I didn't search out these videos in order. It looks like Riverman has the MOST quarters. There's so many there you don't have even look for them.
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#1011037 - 02/26/08 02:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
I was watching his youtube Riverman last week. I was entranced by the whole thing. Unfortunately, my brain didn't say "Hey, I'm supposed to be playing quarter notes like that." My ears and fingers are now ready to learn ;\)
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1011038 - 02/27/08 01:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Riverman changes in 5/4 meter (simplified):

||: Cmi add2 | Cmi add2 | Eb7 (add4) | Eb7 (add4) |
| Ab maj7 | Ab maj7 | C add 2 G7sus | C add 2 G7 sus :||

The left hand is played like Jarrett does sometimes:
rocking back and forth "1 + + 3 4 5"
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#1011039 - 02/27/08 01:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
.
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