Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Best DP for Classical Pianist?

Obviously, the best piano for a classical pianist is an acoustic. But our lives are in the midst of transition, and we may have to forgo an acoustic for a year or two. Also, there are times when one needs to practice silently. Therefore...

What's the best DP option? Our main concern is with feel and control, and then with sound, and we're really only interested in piano sound -- not all the other stuff. We're open to both portable and non-portable options. Our budget is also not infinite. We really don't want to invest too much into a DP. We will eventually buy an acoustic.

Yamaha's graded hammer actions have a good reputation for durability. Also impressive are the posts on PW re the company replacing defective actions even when they're out of warranty. (Defective actions are rare.)

Some people find Yammy's actions to be too heavy. I think that they're close to the resistance of an acoustic action.

Bottom line on Yammy's actions is that you'll always feel as if you're pressing on the end of a lever with linear resistance throughout the key stroke. This will be most noticeable when playing softly. At heavier strike levels, I can't tell the difference between the graded hammer action and the Detoa action fitted to my digital baby grand.

One other characteritic of digitals that will affect you is that they will always sound like a recorded piano. There are variances among digitals, but don't expect the richness that you experience when playing an acoustic.

A set of studio quality headphones will let you experience the true quality of the included sounds.

If budget is there, a Yamaha CLP340 has the GH3 action. That action has a third censor which actuates a sound without the key being bottomed, facilitating fast repetition.

For the sound, I highly recommend Ivory or Pianoteq.

I thought Roland HP-207 was the best. It felt more firm and slightly heavier than the Clavinovas' keybeds, which are too light for me. Otherwise the actions were fairly similar. I agree with the other person, with Yamaha there is this linear resistance when pressing down the keys, probably because of the springs used. I personally went for the CP300 though. The great thing about this stage piano, is that the key travel is slightly longer than many other DPs, and also has a bit heavier action. All these things matter when training technique and improving finger agility.
Still for classical get the smallest/cheapest Yamaha acoustic upright model with a silent module, if you have to room/cash. That is still gonna beat any DP out there, easily. (Haven't tried Roland V-piano.)

Roland V-Piano.

Isn't the V-Piano super expensive? What about the Kawai ES6? I think that has a stand with three-pedals, which would be nice, plus we'd have portability when we need it. We're mainly looking for something to keep up skills and to use at night. We'll get a good acoustic upright after our move to Boston next summer.

My wife also has access to better pianos -- real pianos -- at work, so this won't be her only practice piano.

Anyhow...

A Casio Privia should hold you over just fine. And if you have a fast computer, you could always use the digital piano to control Pianoteq or some other software piano.

I think you need to change your attitude about digitals.
We are living in the Digital Piano Age, and digitals
are already equivalent to acoustic pianos. And they
offer the advantages of light weight, inexpensive
prices, freedom from tuning and maintenance, durability
and reliability, volume control, and instant record and
playback. Frankly, I don't see why non-professionals
(i.e.: people who are not performers or teachers)
even bother with acoustic pianos anymore, since digitals
offer what acoustic pianos can give and a lot more for
a much lower price.

I have an expensive acoustic upright in storage--
a similar model today would be in the ~$20,000
price range, although when I bought it, it
was less than $6000--but it's going to remain in
storage, because my digital, a $600
Williams, an economy model, is
much more practical, and adequate for any kind of
playing. I'm mainly a classical player, and the
Williams is okay for any classical repertoire,
including big-time pieces like the Chopin op. 14.

If you can afford it, the new Roland V Piano is
very impressive--essentially a concert grand for
$6000. But you can get good digitals for less
than $1000; for example, the Casio PX 800 and
the M-Audio DCP 200 are both $900, and more than
adequate for any classical repertoire.

Some prefer digital, but my wife is a performer and teacher, and no digital -- no matter how expensive or advanced -- can equal a good acoustic, although a decent digital is better than a mediocre acoustic or one that's not well maintained.

Ideally, we'd like to have both. It would help my wife with teaching to have experience on a digital. At times, it would be nice to have a portable piano, and right now -- when we're in the midst of moving and plan to move again in a year -- it makes more sense than an acoustic.

I haven't seen a Casio yet, but we're skeptical the touch will be good enough. So far, we're limiting our search to Yamaha, Kawai, and Roland -- leaning towards Kawai.

Don't let the name deter you. Casio did a surprisingly good job. Considering your budget and intended use, I highly recommend trying before judging.

This is coming from a Yamaha diehard.

My personal preference (both for sound and touch) is the Roland HP-207. The cheaper HP-203 is also quite good. If you prefer Yamaha, than the CLP-340 (or possibly CLP-370) are the best. And Kawai is excellent as well.

For a small, relatively inexpensive instrument, I was very impressed with the Kawai ES-6. It is much better than a (cheaper) Casio. If you like it also, than it's a fine choice. The more expensive Kawais are also excellent instruments.

Ask about trade-in allowances. Depending on what DP (and acoustic) you buy, you may be able to get the full price applied to an acoustic later on.

You might also check into renting an acoustic, as an alternative to a DP.

I would recommend ignoring everyone's recommendations, esp. since you already play and already have a sense for what you like. If you think the Kawai feels awesome, what difference does it make that a dozen people like the Yamaha action? Bottom line is to try them out for yourselves and determine which manufacturer and model best fits your needs. As you've already seen, you have opinions all over the board and you should have surmised by now that there really is no "best". Asking for peoples experiences with reliability or the usefulness of a certain feature can be enlightening, but subjective opinions on things like action and tone are so personal that the only answer is that the best is the whatever you're own experience tells you.

Good luck and enjoy your shopping.

[quote=FogVilleLad]

One other characteritic of digitals that will affect you is that they will always sound like a recorded piano. There are variances among digitals, but don't expect the richness that you experience when playing an acoustic.

I demo'd a P155 vs EP3. The thing I noticed when going back to the P155 from the EP3 was that the P155 sounded like a recording, while the EP3 gave the experience of playing a real instrument. The tonal balance between the two how-ever was quite similar.

Re portability, the way to handle that is to make sure that you keep the box in which the DP is delivered. Your wife is an advanced pianist, so I'd recommend going with a "home" piano - three pedals built into the cabinet - rather than a "stage" piano. The difference in weight is important to gigging musicians who regularly play their DP's - perhaps using them as controllers for software instruments, but the occasional move is not, IMO, important.

Please be sure that your wife checks the Kawai's action for fast runs which require striking the middle of the keys. I haven't tried those actions, but have read criticisms re that type of run. Also, check the return policy. There have been occasional criticisms of actions for uneven key height and other symptoms which I can't recall at the moment. I've read that the most recent actions have a lighter feel and faster repetition.

pilgrimjoel, it sounds like you are looking for the same thing as me. So far I haven't had chance to do much trying out so I can't give any useful advice. You need to decide on the features that matter to you most and this will narrow down the choices quite a bit. I'm also very interested in the Kawai ES6 as well as the brand new Casio PX-330 so if you get to play those please post your opinions.

Yamaha has several different keyboards. I prefer the feel of the GHE keyboard. The main difference is in the release. The other Yamaha keyboards felt heavy and sluggish. The GHE feels very similar to my Yamaha acoustic.

I bought my first digital about a year ago. I don't think you can really get advice on touch and sound, which are the two key elements. This is simply personal preference. Here, however, are some practical considerations:
1. Do you want built in speakers. They don't sound great, and a seperate speaker is better, but you may not want to buy that. Some stage pianos have no built in speakers.
2. How much electronic stuff do you want. Sounds like you want very little, so stay away from keyboards that have lots of stuff, as you're paying for something you don't need.
3. When shopping, it is critical to use headphones. Speakers and acoutics are highly variable, and using headphones is the only way to make and apples to apples comparison. When you do get the keyboard, good headphones are well worth the investment.

Update: Went to a dealer today that sells both Kawai and Yamaha, so it was a good place for comparison.

CA51 -- our least favorite of the bunch, both in feel and sound.
CN22 -- actually felt better than CA51.
ES6 -- best of the Kawais, probably second best of what we tried.

CLP340 -- best of what we tried in feel and sound.
CLP370 -- has wood keys, but prefer action on 340.

As far as price goes, we were quoted 1695 for ES6 with case + another 300 for the stand with 3 pedals. He didn't give us an exact quote on the CLP340. Just said it was well over $3k and more piano than we needed for our purposes. He was really pushing the ES6 and CN22. Not sure why.

Are these prices legit? What's a good price on a CLP340?

FWIW, in the upper Midwest (smaller cities) I've had two "quotes" for the CLP-340 that came in between $2800-$3000. I would wonder if it's a case where the salesperson just makes more money on a Kawai compared to the Yamaha - the "more piano that you need for your purposes" statement is a red flag for me.

Hi PilgrimJoel,
Could you please tell what you prefer in the action of the CLP340 compared to the 370? I just bought the 370. I loved both, but to be honest I felt very little difference in action between the two. I also read somewhere on this forum that the bass of the CLP370 sounds richer. Btw although I love both the 340 and 370, I do find the action quite light on both of them, but both allow for great control and expressive playing. Also the pianosamples are so good that they are a joy to play (to me at least), and not just your regular practicing instrument. You can feel that the keyboard is of a rock-solid quality; if you caress the keyboard of the 370 (gently slide over it with your fingers without pressing the keys down) you won´t feel any horizontal movement of the keys whatsoever.
I kind of expect that bitWrangler is right though. Sounds like both you and your wife are qualified enough to make a better judgement what keyboard would be suitable than many others.

I'm sure that I've mentioned this (or others), but you should also try out the Rolands, if you can. The HP-203 is a bit cheaper than the Yamahas, but has a very good action and sound, definitely comparabe to Yamaha or Kawai. I actually prefer the HP-207 to any of the Yamaha or Kawai models, although it may be too expensive for you ($3500 or so probably). At least give them a try.

Yamaha pricing seems to be all over the map, but $3000 for a CLP-340 is about right. Much over that (i.e. $3500-4000) is too much.

We're open to trying Roland, but they seem hard to find here. I've heard prices ranging from 2400-3100 on the CLP 340 and about 1600 for ES6. I'm guessing this dealer's margins must be higher on the Kawais.

I'm not the piano player -- my wife is. I can judge sound, and the Yamahas sounded better than the Kawai (despite the dealers protestations to the contrary). For some reason, she just preferred the feel of the 340 over the 370. The 370 was good, the 340 just seemed better. Both much better (to her) than CA51. None as good as an acoustic (of course). But with the acoustics, she definitely preferred Kawai over both Yamaha and Estonia.

i always felt that CLP 340 keys are way harder than an acoustic
anyone else feels that way? :P

Well.......I did some research....Played several Kawai's, Korgs and Rolands but always returned to Yamaha

ES6 has the looks /appearance of classical piano, sure when you buy it with three pedal-unit. The specs are not specific classical. It is more a versatile instrument. And for me, with classical eyes much 'nonsense'.

When you do'nt take a Yamaha......a better option for classical is the CA18. Wooden keys, very nice action. The digital piano for purists and efficient people!

I purchased after my research of many weeks in different musicstores the clp 320 black polished ebony for its action, grandpiano-sound and no-nonsense, sober, stylish appearance and I love it.

Best regards and succes,

Johan B

Obviously Yamaha is a decent choice, but I would skip the polished Ebony finish and spend the money on upgrading to a CLP-330 or, better yet, CLP-340, which have a better action and some other significant improvements.

The ES-6 does have some "extra" voices and features, to accomodate people playing non-classical styles (although harpsichord and pipe organ are also nice for classical music). I don't see why that would be any kind of problem though. If you don't need a feature, than just don't use it...

Geoffk,

The clp's have, as you know, two beautiful organs and two very nice harpischords.

best regards,
Johan B

Well, yes, as I said the CLP's are perfectly suited for playing Classical (among other things). I was just pointing out that the "nonsense" on the ES-6 is no problem if you're playing classical either. It shouldn't get in your way.

This two models share the same keyboard/action. The GH3.
The main difference is that the CLP-340 has the ability to split the keyboard, i.e. bass and piano, 14 additional voices and about twice the power to the speakers and 4 speakers instead of 2. There are also some more minor differences.


Peace.

We'll have to play again and maybe check out Roland if we find some. For now, we're in no hurry. If we were to buy today, my wife would choose the CLP-340.

for some reason i find the sound quality of hp 203 a bit better than CLP 340..
also the sound of the CLP 340 seems unnatural as if recorded in comparison with roland
but i guess it depends on what brand one likes.. a yamaha diehard will probably find a yamaha better no matter what for psychological reasons and vice versa.

To Richard: Also, the CLP340 has 40 watts vs. 20 watts in the CLP330. And the CLP340 has a different, 4 layered piano sample - of course that's just specs, but (personally) I find that the sample in the 340 sounds quite a bit better than the 330.

Pilgrimjoel, if you/your wife didn´t buy anything yet, suggest that she also tries playing staccato on the CLP340 and 370. I just started another thread since I noticed a soft ticking sound on my brand new 370 when I play a lot of staccato. I also suggest trying the keyboard action with the power off and do this when the store is not to crowded/noisy.

I never realised that many classical pianists were into double penetration.

?????????????

Humor of another world???

JB

I bet you have been waiting for quite a while to make that joke and just could not contain yourself any longer.

These forums were great. We've played several pianos, but always, something lacking. Now we know what it is. Better penetration would definitely produce a more satisfying piano that helps one forget one is not playing an acoustic.

I am classically trained. Sold my Bosie 200 - as a holdover, I now have a Kawai CN 21. It's low end in terms of sound unless you put on the headphones (and even there it's a stretch to make it bearable). But I bought it as a practice instrument, and in terms of the action, and me being a "Renner" guy, it performs. Though you can never use a digital to create tone, I am amazed at some of the chord beats (tuning term) - I am now working in one of the more lyrical Schubert Impromptus, and as someone who also likes to tune, I am a bit overwhelmed as to who good the didgitals have gotten.

My plan - keep myself up to speed while I look for another true instrument, and never give up the digital - being able to practice while nobody else hears your goof and repetition of difficult phrases has gotten me sold on putting a digital in my life as a German nut serious with Schubert, Beethoven, and Brahms.

No, I never even knew that Digital Pianos were referred to as DPs. Just saw the thread and wondered what was going on...

Yes, I know. When I said that the 330/340 had a "better action", I was referring to the CLP-320 which the previous poster had recommended. This model (320) has a GHE action, so (either) the CLP-330 or CLP-340 would be preferable.

..I got so used to the term that I actually had to think for a moment to understand that it was a joke and not some random insult..

I have to confess that, despite some level of cheesiness, it was actually quite funny.

Hi. I am a classically trained pianist. I just graduated from school with a BM in piano performance, and am going to audition for graduate schools this fall. Anyways, I needed something to practice on for auditions (and after), as I had previously been using the pianos at my college and did not own one. Anyways...
I just purchased a Yamaha CLP340. I really prefer pianos with heavy action and this seemed to best match that. I am very happy with this choice, and have not had any problems yet. To be honest, in buying this DP the main thing I was concerned with was how the keys felt. I would really recommend going for this one, if you have not made a decision yet.

Oh, I forgot to add... I paid $3000 (including tax) for the 340. I think that I got a good price, although I have seen on other boards people posting they paid less. I called a few dealers though, and nobody would go less than what I paid. Without tax, I believe it was about $2800.
Hope this helps some.

Hi Rachel,
Did you also try the 370? If so, did you notice a lot of difference between the action of the 340 and 370?

thx

Is there any difference between 340 and 370 beside wooden keys? I think someone mentioned better bass out of 370?

I start to feel like I´m really spamming this thread..

Anyways, pilgrimjoel, I found the answer in another thread:
(https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...6/topic/006049/Number/0/site_id/1#import)

by Ardur: "Comparing the CL-340 to the CL-370, my impression was that the feel of the keys were indistinguishable, although the CL-370 has a natural wood core for the white keys. Using headphones, I also was unable to discern any difference in sound. Using the built-in speakers, though, the CL-370 had a noticeably clearer deep bass (particularly the lowest octave), and it actually had a metal box underneath the keyboard that the CLP-340 didn't have, which according to the dealer made all the difference to the sound."

By Geoffk (same thread):
"According to the Japanese specifications, the differences between 340 and 370 are:

NW keys
Slightly upgraded case
And "Speaker Box"! In other words, the 370 has the same amp and speaker as the 340, but the Bass is acoustic boxed to give it more depth and better sound."

This one from Horwinkle I also found interesting:
"I think the tone generators in the 340 and 370 are identical (anyway, the specs are identical). So they should both sound the same through headphones."

I also googled for CLP370, enclosure and speakers.
I found a standard sentence on several sites stating that the speakers-"enclosure" apparently improoves depth and resonance.

Btw, only the white keys of the CLP370 are wood, the black keys are not.

I read before that your wife actually preferred the 340 over the 370 both in sound and action. So in that case, the difference in price is probably better spent on good headphones.

This may sound like a betrayal to my own CLP370, but I got it at a discount

I know some people think the wooden keys make little difference but I found the 370 much nicer than the 340 because of them. The way the keys feel under the fingertips is really important. I also prefer the way the 370 looks with the extra front legs. The price difference was not all that much and I would personally pay the extra for the 370. However, I was more even impressed with the Roland HP-207 (as a Classical pianist) because the touch seemed more like an acoustic and it was easier to find the right piano sound for me.

A couple of years ago, someone who posted that he had the tech manual for the Natural Action said that its mechanism was different from that of the graded hammer actions.

The speakers, amps, four-level sampled piano sounds, and polyphony of the 340 and 370 appear to be the same. You can compare the specs here.

Thanks. We'll have to play again and find a Roland. I'm not sure she noticed a sound difference actually -- just that the 340 felt better to her. Both felt and sounded better than Kawai. We were expecting better from the Kawai, given that she prefers their acoustic action over Yamaha, and given what people have said. Although the ES6 was pretty good, so she'll probably try to play that again, too. We're in no hurry.

Hi pilgrimjoel, I´m going to spam your thread once more.
I am noticing with my CLP370 (and also with another CLP370 that I tried in a store, for comparison), that when I play long passages which mainly consist of staccato, several keys are quite noisy, just when my fingers hit them.

In detail, it goes as follows: because of the speed of the passage (I´m experiencing this e.g. with part 2 and 4 of the Suite Bergamasque) and because everything is staccato, a lot of movement comes from my wrist. In addition, the fingers are not resting on the keys but are slightly above it. So basically, I´m softly "hammering" the keyboard. Directly when I hit the keys (not every key has it though) I hear a soft tick-sound (it sounds a bit as if the ivory top has not been glued properly to the key - this seems is not to be the issue though). I don´t know if this will wear off after the keyboard has been played for a few months, or if it will get worse. I told it to the pianodealer, and he didn´t even notice it (or he faked not hearing it), so maybe I´m too focused and too much of a perfectionist. I didn´t find anyone on pianoworld with similar complaints either.

In a loud store, it may be a little more difficult to hear this, but it´s present and I hear it clearly while playing at home at 1/2 or 3/4 of max. volume. Maybe it´s best to test for this with the power off. I wonder how noisy other keyboards are with these sorts of passages, especially the CLP340, since it also has GH3 but not the natural wood thingy.

If your wife is going to try this, could you please let us know about her findings?

thx.

pieper,

We'll try to do that, but it may be awhile. We're not in any hurry to acquire a DP -- unless we sell our C3 and before we find an upright. We were considering consignment, but we've ruled that out for now because we have a year before our move to Boston.

Right now, we're focusing mostly on acoustic uprights, so I'm not sure when we'll play DPs again. We didn't really get a good listen the first time around. Noisy store, and we were focusing mostly on the feel. If we do opt for an upright, then we're more likely to supplement with something portable like the ES6. My wife was pleasantly surprised with it and liked it better than the other Kawais. Does anyone know how it compares to the P155?

We'll also give Roland a chance when we find one -- probably in Chicago.

Speaking of the ES6, has anyone any experience with the ES3?

Even though the new Yamaha N3 is expensive, if you have a chance, check it out. I believe it will re-write the standards for digital pianos. It is that good.

Why don't you just go out and try them all. If this is about feel first, then Yamaha, Roland and Kawai all make excellent actions for the top end digitals. There.

Thanks everyone. We've tried a few Kawais and Yamahas, and we're leaning towards the ES6 -- because we like the portability -- but we're not in any hurry. We'll keep you posted.