It's obvious to anyone to sit and hit a few notes, play a melody or a run when auditioning a digital piano.

But if you get a chance to play V-Piano, also try THIS.

Use good headphones. Hit a loud and very short (staccato) chord in a mid octave (say, A1). What do you hear?

Now, try that with Pianoteq or any other digital piano on the floor.
Now try that on a real acoustic piano.


V-Piano will be coming to my apartments as soon as possible. And no matter what.

P.S.
I have now spent a lot more time with the V-Piano and I changed my mind from the earlier post where I said "not good enough for the price". I simply was under the pressure of the huge price tag. Now I am used to the price and have learned to focus only on the sound and the play.

Well, on Pianoteq I hear sympathetic resonance (if the sustain pedal is pressed)

alekkh, I am interested in your thoughts once you have it. Also if you could expand on the differences between the four experiences:
a. Playing an acoustic
b. Playing V-piano
c. Playing Pianoteq
d. Playing a sampled digital piano

My experience with Pianoteq with a less than ideal Digital Piano is that it is so far from an acoustic that I don't even find it good for practising. But I know it may be because of: lack of high end monitors, high end digital piano that may offer better midi response than the DP I have, configuring velocity response to suit one's playing, and headphone listening being different in nature than real natural listening (headphone listening is like listening to a recording, distant and different in feeling).
This example you gave of playing fortissimo staccato is exactly a very good way to show-see-feel the difference between instruments in my experience.
Regards,
Ary

Ary: I don't like Pianoteq with headphones. I have 8 Inch $400 each Monitor speakers and a Nice subwoofer. I had to angle them and tweak Pianoteq just right to get the color and character that was perfect. I have that on my main setup with a very nice action Yamaha PF-500 as the controller. In my bedroom I have a cheap 88 key DGX-505 with 6 inch monitors and a cheap subwoofer meant for a surround sound TV setup. It is ok in a pinch but sucks compared to any acoustic or my main setup.

a. Playing an acoustic: Ideally, I would have a Yamaha C6 Grand Piano. Let's just get that out there right now. I just can't afford the $30K to get a nice used one. Given the choice between a cheap baby grand or a cheap upright, I'd take Pianoteq any day.
b. V-piano. I have not played one. I can't imagine it would be much different than a my main Pianoteq setup. I would rather have the self contained V-piano system over Pianoteq, but not for six thousand dollars. Plus I'd shell out $1000 for speakers and a subwoofer to do it justice, so we're talking 7 thousand bucks
c. Pianoteq: With about $1000 worth of speakers (2 8 inch monitor speakers and a subwoofer), and a great-quality keyboard, it's awesome (My total investment is $1000 for speakers + $360 for Pianoteq + $2200 for the DP = $3560). Like a piano, you have true resonance and string response. You can hear sympathetic resonance which is true to life. You can voice your piano immediately. I wish that like the V-Piano I could voice individual hammers, but I cannot at this point. With headphones (even my $200 set) and $400 total worth of speakers and a cheap keyboard, it's not that great.
d. Sampled digital pianos: I've not played one high end Clavinova that I really like. The 3.5 K for my setup blows away an equivalently priced Clavinova. I can always tell it's digital. I've not played the AvantGrand, but I've played some nice ones. Their fine, but after listening to Pianoteq compared to them I'm thoroughly convinced modelling, rather than sampling, is the future..

a. Acoustics vary. Often they are in a poor shape or built so poorly as to be less pleasant than even $500 digital pianos. But with a well maintained Yamaha or Steinway grand the joy is unmatched.

b. To me V-piano equals to a well-maintained real grand in every aspect, even in touch-to-sound transition. Plus the capability to use headphones and practice anytime. For that reason I actually prefer V-Piano OVER a real grand.

c. To me - no fun. Strange creature that sounds like a guitar, synthesizer, banjo and piano at the same time.

d. I'd place Yamaha P250/CP300 and Roland FP7 pretty high on my list. But V-Piano they are not. As a long-time owner of Yamaha P80 and P140 I would highly recommend V-Piano for anyone looking for a quantum leap in piano experience.

The analogy would be: sampled pianos are grayscale pictures, V-Piano is a full-color poster...

There is still a gap between the V piano and a steinway or a baby grand in good shape. But anyway the V piano is a breakthrough in digital piano, since it's the first one with modelling technology, and they will improve it further of course, this is just the beginning. One thing that is already a great success in my opinion is the "All Silver" mode in the V piano, it's the best sound you can get from that instrument, and it's a completely new sound that you can't get for example with an acoustic piano. All the other modes are impressive but not comparable to a good grand piano, no way, there is still a cold digital sounding halo going on. And let's not forget, however good it is, the sound is still coming from the speakers.

Yamaha and Steinway are pretty much opposites. My $3K 30 year old greymarket Kawai is already better than any Yamaha I have come across. How does the American Vintage Grand compare to a well maintained Steinway B or D? Are any of the Uprights a Steinway Vertigrand? (I know that is a tough one but if one of the preset uprights sounds a bit like the Steinway grand it just may be one)

Thanks!

JoeDaBassPlayer,
"Yamaha and Steinway are pretty much opposites." - yes. And both are equally fun to play.

As for your questions, please stay on topic: "V-Piano: a tip to demo this ultimate piano". Thanks.

Uh, I asked if the American Vintage grand was comparable to a well maintained S&S B or D. I also asked if there was an S&S sounding upright amongst the upright presets. I think that is about as on topic as one can get.

AlphaTerminus, alekkh ay6mpold thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

There are two things that I notice and are subjective to my view:
1. People are very quick to judge and conclude: "this must be like this" "it can't be more or less than". I say this since some people have been assuming the V-piano is comparable with Pianoteq without having tried both things to a full extent. Not only in this case but in many things, jump to conclusions too soon.
2. When it is talked about an acoustic, many have in mind a great grand as the example in question, or that as a minimum standard.
That is not the case for me at least, because: an acoustic responds in a certain way even if it is a console vertical piano, this example of the fortissimo staccato would apply here. In my experience a piano, be it vertical or grand responds in a similar way, repetition and tone aside.
What I mean is: Celesta is one instrument, Harpsichord is another, Forte Piano is another, and Piano -the modern piano- is another one. I don't consider a good new vertical piano to be as different to a grand piano, as a harpsichord for example. To me a digital piano is a different instrument, and I find an acoustic vertical piano to be closer in feel and response to a grand, than a digital.

One other thing, if a digital piano, hooked with Pianoteq, and with great monitors sounds and feels really really good, and responds very well, that defeats the purpose of privacy, since headphones are out of the question. And the digital piano action doesn't hold as much use as an acoustic, should it be played for many hours a day. It also doesn't provide tonal ground for the highest musical level -the AvantGrand shows its limitations when played by Katsaris for example-, and I suspect that it would limit someone who is developing his technique, at least in the highest level. This is different than someone who has his technique made studying on acoustic pianos, such as Hugh Sung. What I mean is, I personally haven't seen or heard a pianist who studied exclusively or mainly on a digital piano. It will be interesting to see when he or she appears.

Until I have the chance to try a High End DP like the V-Piano or a High End Roland or Yamaha, hooked up to Pianoteq with high quality monitors and positioning, from what I have tried in DPs, I don't find them acceptable as a substitute for serious classical piano studying and performing. I rather have a sound of a different instrument such as the organ, and practice with that with no dynamic changes, or use the keyboard -the keys of the DP- with no sound, that is the DP turned off. Because in my experience so far, the way the sound responds, dynamics specially, to playing with headphones is different and unnatural to acoustic piano playing. It is like the hand not only is limited in its dynamic range, but is surprised when playing and reacts in a negative way, registering a different response from the sound. I read some pianists used silent keyboards, with no sound at all, the same acoustic action but not sound. I even prefer playing with the mute rail than playing in a digital piano. But Digital pianos allow for harpsichord and organ reproduction and that is worth so much that it is a great instrument. And so many more of course.

I would love to change my mind about it, since I had to spend a lot of money for sound isolation in my room, and my upright isn't worth more than 500usd -I am saving to change it for a new or gray market Kawai-. It would be awesome to have a Grand Piano experience for the V-Piano price. However outside of the US and Europe, the prices usually are 60 to 100 percent more expensive, plus the devaluated currency, so it ends up being 4 to 7 times as much -comparing someone who earns 10usd an hour to someone who earns 10 of whatever currency their country has.

Regards,
Ary

Is it possible to get one shipped to Argentina, or are the customs/duties/shipping to high?

Possible yes, that I could ever do it? Nope. It would cost not less than 8,000 to 10,000 dollars which would be between 30000 and 40000 pesos. What is important to remind is that if someone works 8hours a day and earns 2000usd a month, and someone works the same here and earns 2000 pesos, that is equal to a little over 500usd. To give you an idea of things. So, if something costs 3 or 4 months worth of work in the US, here it would cost aprox 15 to 20 months worth of salary. Have in mind people have to pay bills so in both cases they can't use all their income for something like this, wherever it is they live.
Regards,
Ary

Hi Ary. I bought our used Kawai for the bargain price of a little over $3K. However, other places were selling similar pianos for closer to $5K. At the moment, the V piano is $6K. I would expect the V piano to eventually come down and be highly competitive in price with a really good used pro upright.

I am sorry that piano prices are so high where you are. That not only makes a V Piano extremely expensive but the alternatives as well.

I tried the V-Piano with both quality headphones and a 2.1 speaker system. My impression is that V-Piano has better tone than most digital pianos out there, but others, particularly Yamahas, have more realistic execution. I just can't get over the fact that the V-Piano dropped melody notes prematurely during the dense section of Rach's Prelude in B minor, my benchmark for test driving digital pianos. I also can't get over the fact that they still screw up basic damper pedal mechanics. Granted, that Rach Prelude isn't the famous one, and one of my damper techniques is certainly esoteric, but if digital pianos with a fraction of the V-Piano's technology and costing a fraction of the V-Piano are up to the task, then I feel there's really no excuse. Bottom line is, I don't care how good it sounds, it's worthless to me.

So here's my own tip for demoing this "ultimate" piano: It's easy to get swept away by how gorgeous it sounds and how great the action feels. But what really matters is expression. Play your most demanding pieces, and listen really closely to how well it executes your playing. If it meets your requirements, then all power to you. (Though I still think it's about $2000-3000 overpriced. )

I'm an noob when it comes to digital pianos, but here's my limited experience, I play classical only:

a) I have an upright. Not an expensive one, probably around 6000$. Actually it is a nice piano, although it is far from the action on a good grand, and the bass section is of course weak. Main problem is neighbours.

b) The first digital piano I've encountered that I could play a delicate piece of Mozart on and really enjoy it. Half the price, and you might find it in my living room right now.

c) So far I have only listened to demos, I'm waiting for a MIDI-USB adapter to arrive to try Pianoteq live. To me it sounds weak in head phones. But there are plenty of options to play with, and there are also other software pianos out there. So I haven't given up yet.

d) I've tried some of the recent top Yamaha and Roland models. I think they're weak in head phones. Not enough resonance or something. Wouldn't buy one, although bass and everything sounds better than my upright, think I feel the same as you Ary, it's just not fun for me.

However, these things are very personal. Also don't despair. Roland will put the V-Piano tech in their digital grands, a special grand speaker arrangement mode is already mentioned in the manual, and eventually also in their cheaper models I'm sure. And Yamaha is probably already busy copying them. The future is bright.

pold: Did you try the V-Piano with head phones on? While the silver thing is interesting, I actually think it was difficult to improve on the sound of the built in Vintage Piano 2. Ambience and everything was just about right at default settings.

Of course we are all after different things in the sound.

Unfortunately I didn't tried the V piano yet, I am judging only by the demos, I know it's different, but now there are lots of demos on internet so you can have a good idea of what it sounds like. The future is bright certainly, I just hope they will work and experiment on the speakers much more than they are doing now.

Most of the demos I've heard really don't do it justice. I'm not sure why. It sounds VERY different. Because of the demos, I did not think it was going to cut it before I actually tried it. The audio demos on the Roland US site are so bad (especially the Vintage Piano 1 sample) that I was going to email them about it; but alas, you have to go through some kind of registration before you can contact them.

I wait for the day when someone here buys the V-piano and reports back.

I purchased one recently.

If I may offer a suggestion:
The 24 presets are just initial neutral settings. They give you an editor program and 100 user presets for a reason. If you do some serious tweaking on the Key page the Piano really comes alive. It took me a few days to discover this, and it made a huge difference.

I also use the digital output and run it through a Dolby™ logic decoder to extract a more ambient effect not achieved through reverberation.

Could you post some audio clips? I'd love to hear the V-Piano at its best. Then again, if you have to do so much tweaking, perhaps it's not such a good instrument after all.

Martin, It's counterintuitive, but the tweaking is actually a positive *if* there are sufficient tools for the job. I currently play Galaxy II - Hamburg Steinway D, Bosendorfer Imperial, and Bluthner baby grand. As delivered, the samples are what's sometimes called "raw." They're meant to be tweaked to the player's taste. For example propianist posted his tweaks for the Steinway. Based on his tweaks, he likes powerful, incisive instruments. To my ears, making a Hamburg Steinway even more incisive results in a cold sound which becomes unpleasant at anything above mezzo forte. I tweaked the Steiny to create a warmer instrument, which my ears prefer.

Fortunately Galaxy's tweaking tools are powerful. I don't have any apps which can create substitute reverb, so I use a little of the included reverb. In any case when tweaked to taste, the raw samples do come alive, just as giles posted.

Martin feels the same way about Roland V as he does about Johnny Depp. Which is the opposite way of how I feel about both of them.

As opposed to J.D., the V-Piano might actually improve in the future. See, totally different things!

Yes, sound adjustments are great, but I still think they could include better presets on the V-Piano. Most users want to turn the instrument on and play, not pipe the audio through lots of software and studio equipment until it finally sounds right. That's really Roland's job I think.

Most DP users are not that tech- or computer-savvy, at least judging by some of the forum questions, e.g. trying to record audio via a MIDI cable being a perennial favorite. So Roland shouldn't count on a lot of post-processing being done by the average user. This may be different for these huge sample libraries, where it's clear they are geared more towards Pro users.

But I'd still be very interested to hear what the processed version of the V-Piano sounds like!

Too true!

No argument. Been there, done that. I don't know about other apps, but the tweaking controls in Galaxy II are pretty straightforward. There's a row of five "tweaking buttons" plus a button for Velocity Editor on the main screen. Pretty much everything can be accomplished by pressing the buttons and working with the drop-down choices.

The velocity editor is powerful. There are presets and there's also a box which shows notes as vertical bars. Users can creat their own velocity curve by altering the bars - one at a time is possible! Pretty impressive, at least to this techno igoranmus.

I played the Roland V Piano again today.

That was after I played 5 other Rolands. I was enjoying the HP 207 (priced by the salesman at $3800)....until I played the V and went back to the 207. It just spoils you for any other digital piano.

Alpha Terminus: You can't compare Pianoteq to the V because Pianoteq is software and not a piano, so you can't compare the action, only the sound. Roland doesn't have the action of the V in any of its other pianos...PHA III with escapement.

And on this, my 5th playing of the V, it was clear to me that what I was really loving on this piano is the action...well at least today. The incredible responsiveness to the changes in touch as I played 2 Chopin pieces is incomparable in any other digital piano and better than some acoustics I have played.

And I don't even like the texture of the V keys , they have a papery applique feeling to simulate ivory and to absorb perspiration, but it's not a huge turnoff, I've just never felt anything quite like it.

Later I went to an acoustic dealer and played several pianos, including a Steinway and Mason & Hamlin grand. I just wish I could have tried the V side by side with them.

If I could pick a piano I played today, it would be 1) Mason & Hamlin grand 2) Steinway Grand 3) Roland V, better than any of the other acoustic grands, and far better than any of the digital pianos.

Giles, did you buy speakers to go with the V? Did you have to buy the stand separately? And a bench? Where did you buy it? And how much did it all come to? I'll go check digital piano prices paid...