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elene ~

"but think of your hand going up and sort of pulling the sound out of the keys."

I understand exactly what you are saying! The concept of pulling the sound out of the keys is a wonderful way for me to visualize the chord. Also, the visualization of the shape of the chords is very useful and I think key to playing Chopin to avoid the mechanical repetition of the chords which is so NOT Chopin. Supple, supple, supple.

Thank you!

27/2 and 48/1 are about as good as music gets, aren’t they?

I had 27/2 down pretty well last year except for 3 measures-- those who have been playing it probably know which 3. Inspired by LisztAddict, I decided to take another look at it, and went through it with my teacher yesterday. One thing to report: in measure 32, with the triplets that include jumps of tenths, hard to do fast enough, being told to hold my elbow close to my body made a big difference. I was sticking my right elbow out slightly, just enough to slow the jumps down.

Cruiser, I totally agree about those “monster chords” in 48/1. Chopin was cruel to us in that section. My teacher pointed out that while in some cases the LH chords need to be arpeggiated, in other cases it may be best to break the LH chords into two quick sections rather than arpeggiate them. It does seem like that helps to smooth the passage out, but I’m not quite sure what I want to do with it yet. On recordings, the professionals often can give the impression that they can play the whole chord at once, which is physically impossible.

For the big chords in between the octave passages on the third page, try thinking in terms of mapping out which hand has to move first to grab the chord, and where your eyes have to be to make it happen.

At any rate, when I tried that passage again after my lesson, it seemed far more doable. I think one problem was that I’ve had the concept in my head that it is SO hard, which has made it harder.

It is both enlightening and confounding to look at Chopin’s fingerings and cryptic markings for 48/1, which are given in Eigeldinger’s book. If you don’t have that book, order it now!

By the way, check measure 10 in your edition of 48/1. On the second beat of measure 10, under the arpeggiated ornaments, the chord should have E flat on the bottom. Some editions give C, and that’s both a mistake and way more difficult. Interestingly, Chopin gives 1-1 for the fingering at the beginning of the RH ornament in that spot.

Now if I could just get all the way through 48/2 reliably for our e-cital!

Elene

I am still not sure if this sounds like a Mazurka.

http://www.box.net/shared/5h4qbpybv7

Thanks for this tip. I was trying it tonight with the posth. a minor waltz and it worked quite nicely. I'll keep working at it.

Hi LA:

Your recording was as light and gay as I am fairly certain that Chopin meant it to be. I learned this piece a couple of years ago, but I could never get that "joyous" quality that you have been able to give it. Just lovely!

Fondly,
Kathleen

P.S. It is possible that I will be starting on the 27, #2, fairly soon, and I know I will be driving you crazy with the many questions I will have. Be forewarned!!

DragonPlayerPiano suggested I post a link to the "Piano Book" topic that has been running in Pianist's Corner. We've got a great list of books developing but as he mentioned, there aren't many on Chopin. If you would like to add to the list, please do it in the Pianist's Corner. Thanks!


http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1237366/1.html

A QUESTION ON TEMPO

For all you devotees and CHopin-wallahs: is there evidence, either from Chopin himself, or from his students, or people who listened to him play, that Chopin kept the tempo even and consistent from beginning to end? Did he recommend - or enforce - that among his students? Did he criticize other pianists who did not do this?

The reason I ask is that I'm in the process of recording a Chopin Nocturne (in B, Op 32 #1) and the so-called Raindrop prelude. In both cases, changes in the melody and character and mood of the music seems to call for slight changes in tempo. For example if I play the gloomy middle section of the prelude at what seems like an appropriate tempo, then the simple opening section sounds rushed - like a hurdy-gurdy played too fast by an insane Orang-Utang = but if I slow the middle section down it does not hang together well.

But at the same time I know that CHopin always had a metronome on his piano. He idolized Mozart - for whom anything but a steady unvarying tempo would be unthinkable.

I have tried to average the tempos (taking both the arithmetic and geometric averages) and seems like too weasely a solution. I have tried contacting the spirit of CHopin on the Astral by means of trance-inducing mushrooms - no luck! I am at my wits end - soon I will have no recourse but to drown my despair in absinthe and opium. Help me - - - help. me. ...

BTW - my teacher recommends keeping the tempo steady - NO MATTER WHAT!

I think a distinction needs to be made between transient deviations in tempo for expressive purposes (i.e., rubato) and an overall change to the basic tempo of the piece (as you propose for the central section of Prelude #15).

I don't know how a metronomic, rock-steady pace is possible, or why it would be desirable. It's contraindicated everywhere Chopin has expressly written a ritardando or a stretto followed by a tempo, and seems implicit elsewhere for purposes of shaping phrases. But too much wavering causes the underlying pulse to be lost; excessive, exaggerated rubato makes Chopin's music maudlin.

And then there is the issue of "Chopin's rubato," in which he insisted that the left hand should maintain accurate rhythm while the right hand could have rhythmic freedom.

As to whether the underlying pace of an entire section or episode within a piece should be modified when not so marked, I do think it may be warranted on occasion. While the first published editions of Prelude #15 don't indicate a tempo change when the key signature changes, at least one editor has added one: in the edition of Raoul Pugno at IMSLP, it specifies Poco più animato at this point. This assumption seems to be reflected in most professional performances of the piece, too.

Steven

Thanks Steven - that's very interesting. Actually the differences in tempo I am thinking of are rather slight - I'm taking the first section at a quarter note = 78 and the middle section = 82.

I agree that excessive rubato is counter to Chopin's style: there is a wonderful story that Chopin took a candle and blew on it gently enough to make it waver slightly and then he told a student "that is MY rubato' - then he blew the candle out and said "that is YOUR rubato".

But in general I have found that Chopin is very careful about his poco rit's., and ralen.'s and slentandros and perdendos and smorzandos and so on- in the mazurkas and nocturnes and preludes he marks them very carefully and completely so that it would seem that a steady, elegant pulse is something Chopin expected and desired. I find that Chopin was so thorough in making these markings that one can be pretty confident that one is realizing his intentions by playing the music 'as written', and introducing a few pauses, breath takings or minor ritards of one's own only very infrequently.

On the same point it seems Chopin hardly ever writes A Tempo - at least looking casually through the mazurkas - he'll mark a slendando or a ritar - and then it will usually be obvious where the normal tempo picks up again. Or else he will use dashes to indicate a poco stretto or whatever. Come to think of it I don't think I have ever seen an 'a tempo' or a 'piu meno mosso' or 'piu animato' or anything like that from editions I have - which are mostly modern and Ur-text-y. He seemed to assume people would know where to return to the tempo, so perhaps he also assumed that people would know when to pick the tempo up a bit when the music seemed to call for it.

This famous business about keeping the LH steady while adding rubato to the RH alone does at least indicate Chopin's interest in keeping - or appearing to keep - a steady underlying beat. I think I remember reading - was it in that book of accounts from his students? - the at least one of his contemporaries had doubts as to whether he actually did this. I myself think this is just one of the things that piano teachers tell their students to make them feel small and weak and therefor more easy to control.

Hi

I'm new to all this (this is my first post) so I don't really know what I'm doing yet, but I'll do my best.

I love Chopin (as you can probably guess by my name), but it is only a quite recently found love of mine, so I'll give you a quick story of my Chopin and piano life so far.

I started piano around 8 years ago, when I was about 5 years old. However, I did not have much enthusiasm for it, and after a change in teacher to try to rekindle my love for it, my mum was thinking of canceling lessons as I was only putting in about half an hour practice a week at most.

One day, around a year ago, I was listening to some of the pre-recorded tracks on my yamaha clavinova and I came across one that I really liked. This piece happened to be Chopin's waltz in c sharp minor, op. 64 no.2. I told my piano teacher I wanted to learn it, and a few months later, it was learnt. From then on, I couldn't get enough of the piano and Chopin, and moved on to learn Fantaisie-Impromptu, the raindrop prelude and some other easier preludes and a nocturne.

So where am I now, after this revelation one year ago? Well, I play the piano more than ever now and I am currently tackling Chopin's second Scherzo, which is a challenge but I am progressing well, and I have a very long list of pieces to keep me occupied in the future.

So, all I have left to say is, thank you Chopin, for showing me beautiful music.

p.s. I love these forums

I started when I was seven, and have been playing for eight years. Sorry, my mistake.

Chopin4life, welcome. It sounds like you are a more advanced player than many of us.

LA, I’ve been remiss in not getting around to any comments on your waltz and mazurka recordings. The waltz (hey, at last something I can play!): I especially liked the fact that you brought out the little melody in the RH thumb in the first few measures of the B section. Lots of people don’t notice that or don’t bother to elucidate it. The mazurka: It sure sounds like a mazurka to me, with plenty of fluidity and flexibility and great musicality.

Schubertian, I don’t really understand the idea that for Mozart, “anything but a steady unvarying tempo would be unthinkable.” Maybe there’s something I don’t know about in that regard.

You and Steven mentioned that Chopin used a great many specific indications of tempo changes, and that is certainly true-- and one does find “a tempo” as well. One piece that is almost obsessive in its attempts to prescribe every variation in tempo is the 9/1 nocturne. In that piece Chopin is asking the player to slow down for a few measures, speed back up, slow down again-- it’s always seemed a little odd to me, but that’s what he wrote. I think later on he may have given up trying to be so minutely detailed, but it does give us an indication of the way he thought about tempo and the way he must have played himself.

Regarding prelude 15, I definitely speed up a bit for the middle section, but not all that much. I think it’s more a change in feel than a major change in tempo. At any rate, there’s no need to be afraid of pushing the tempo a bit or to feel that that is “wrong.”

I’m dealing with an issue like this in the 48/2 nocturne, the one I’ve promised to record. The middle section, which has a completely different character from the rest, is marked “molto piu lento,” but I can’t seem to make myself slow down much-- nor can I force myself into a huge change in the measures marked “rubato.” (Of course my playing tends to be on the overly straight side anyway.) The players on the recordings I have don’t make a big change of tempo either. Perhaps the answer is that the rest of the piece needs to go faster in order for that section to seem slower. I don’t know. I’m going to play it the way it sounds and feels right to me, one way or another, but I have it in the back of my mind that Angela Lear will be listening and she’ll think, “That’s not what he wrote!”

But if you got those mushrooms to work and you did get in touch with Chopin where he is now, judging from previous experience, I think he’d tell you to be creative, be inspired, don’t overthink it-- maybe “Love the art inside yourself.” And if you happen to come up with an interpretation that isn’t his ideal, oh well. After all, he can’t do much of anything about it, can he?

(By the way, I’ve never heard the candle story, but it’s plausible.)

Your teacher may be another matter, of course. If you have a teacher that seems to want to make you feel small and powerless, I hope you can find another teacher, because that is the exact opposite of a teacher’s job. (My current teachers in various disciplines keep trying to convince me that I can do so much more than I think I can. Which is annoying in its own way!)

Someone did say that Chopin “COULD not play in time,” but yes, he kept a metronome close to hand and apparently was quite exacting in matters of tempo with his students.

Elene

Or just horribly out of my depth. Either way, thanks for the welcome

Let me add my welcome to you, Chopin4life: Your story, while quite personal and interesting, could probably be the story of many. All it takes for some of us is just one melody, one nocturne, one waltz...and we are hooked for the rest of our lives. I like to think that it takes a certain type of sensitivity to hear his music and to respond as you did. And, may I add, that you are (compared to the rest of us) quite young, and I think you must be a very special person.

Please don't be intiminated by the "knowledge" of some of the posters here. I am afraid there are so many out there, who might be just like you, who don't respond because they think they "are out of their depth." Please remember that Chopin wrote for everyone. You don't have to be an expert musicologist to love this music, just a person with a warm heart and a sensitive soul.

Please write again...and to all of you others who are "lurking," out there, please lurk no longer.

My best to all,
Kathleen

Good luck to you

A couple of days ago I wrote:
'I’m dealing with an issue like this in the 48/2 nocturne, the one I’ve promised to record. The middle section, which has a completely different character from the rest, is marked “molto piu lento,” but I can’t seem to make myself slow down much-- nor can I force myself into a huge change in the measures marked “rubato.”'

OOPS. First, those measures are marked "ritenuto," not "rubato."

Second, I realized, quite belatedly, that the pulse in the middle section really does go considerably slower than the pulse of the rest of the piece. I suppose it seemed faster than it really is because of the clusters of sixteenth notes. It was deceptive (or my brain wasn't working). So no more worrying about whether it's slow enough-- I'm already doing what Chopin's directions say.

Elene

Wow thanks for that loveschopintoomuch. I will continue to post on these forums when and where I see fit

We have some Chopin Etudes in the PC recital too.

www.etuderecital.org

We have some Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour episodes from Netflix. One of them, an Emmy award-winning program, featured Liberace, and there was a sketch that had me in stitches even though really it was pretty dumb. The scene opened with Liberace, with a gold sequined tuxedo, matching shoes, and matching BENCH even, ripping into the 64/1 waltz (no, I am NOT going to call it that!) at warp 10. I thought, “Why is he playing it so ungodly fast?” Well, a moment later there was the sound of a siren, and a cop pulled up on a motorcycle. “Do you know how fast you were playing?” asked the cop. “Well, no, officer, I wasn’t really paying attention.” The cop then pointed to the piano and asked, “What year is this thing?” This led to a call checking on the ownership of the instrument. “I need to check on a ’63 concert grand. Black. Oh… First name or last name? Both? Oh-kaayy….” You get the idea.

As usual, you never know where Chopin is going to show up.

Factoid of the day: Liberace got that candelabra thing from watching “A Song to Remember,” that forgettable 1945 movie that was supposedly about Chopin’s life. Sorry-- I know some of you liked it!

Elene

This is going to beat everything!! I was playing a computer game a few days ago. Yes, I hang my head in shame admitting that I do spend some of my free hours on the computer, rather than the piano.

The program asked if background music was desired. When I saw there was a choice that included Piano Music, I chose that. And then I almost fell off the couch when I heard the lovely strains of a Chopin nocturne...played in full!! The next selection sounded like a Debussy composition. After I got over my initial shock, I started to compare the two. I realized then that DeBussy came off as a very, very distant second.

But really! Chopin and Sudoku!! I think I will write the publishers of this game (Hoyle's Board Games) and congratulate the programmer, who obviously held Chopin in high esteem and was brave enough to put his music out there, for so many to hear. Who knows that maybe Chopin gained a few more fans.

On a personal note, and I don't like to use this thread as such. I have not been contributing as much as I would like or nearly as often. The reason is that my bipolar disorder has had me in the blues for several months. My "shrink" started me on yet another medication. I am hoping this one will get me back to "normal," for I so miss all of you, and most of all, I miss playing and listening to our hero.

My very best to all, as always,
Kathleen