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#1249380 - 08/14/09 07:57 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Originally Posted By: Motorama
Comparing classical music to pop music is like comparing apples to orange. They're completely different. The circumstance in which they were created, their role in society, the social dynamics they cover, the means by which they're promoted.


If you can demonstrate to me the difference between a Baroque opera and a Styx concept album, including the way in which it was received by the audience, I'll eat my hat, your hat, and any other hat you toss at me.


The difference can't be summarized in few words because it's a complex environment difference. It's like the difference between a Charlie Chaplin movie and a modern movie. You might claim that the portrayal of humans and society is still faithful in his movies as it is in modern movies, but no one will ever be able to make that kind of movies again, because the social circumstances that influenced them are not there anymore. The same for a Beethoven sonata, the reason why he composed that kind of music it's because of social influences and circumstances that belong to the past are not coming back.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 08:01 PM)

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#1249391 - 08/14/09 08:08 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
J Cortese Offline
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Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Okay, so there's just as much difference between all forms of music.

Metal, pop, boyband, melodic rock, disco. All totally different.

Beethoven, Haendel, Mozart, Schumann, Strozzi, Berlioz, Prokofiev ... all totally different.

At that point, you can't distinguish between ANY form of music, and so categorizing anything as "classical" versus "contemporary" is meaningless.

And besides -- I'm not asking that question casually. Convince me you know why I'm comparing those two. It's not THAT complex. If people can write concisely about the start of World War Two, they can write concisely about this.


Edited by J Cortese (08/14/09 08:11 PM)
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#1249397 - 08/14/09 08:18 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
Classical music is a pretty meaningless term I agree as it doesn't define any genre. On the other hand there are well defined genres in the classical music group like romantic, classical, baroque, neoromantic, impressionistic, minimalist. And they are the equivalent of modern and pop music genres (disco, new age, melodic rock, techno and so on)

Still what contemporary or modern music means is pretty straight forward. No Doubt, being a rock punk band from 90's is neither modern nor contemporary. This of course is a chronological definition and says nothing about the quality (subjective concept) and the genre of the music I'm talking about.

I don't know anything about Styx.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 08:19 PM)

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#1249402 - 08/14/09 08:23 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
J Cortese Offline
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Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Maybe if you actually defined what you think these terms DO mean instead of what they don't, and not reactively, there might be hope of an actual conversation here. clearly, you think the word "classical" means something or else you wouldn't be expecting/hoping so fervently for it to die out.


Edited by J Cortese (08/14/09 08:23 PM)
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#1249416 - 08/14/09 09:01 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
I love classical music which to me defines the accademic instrumental music in its classical forms (sonata, symphony, concert ...) created by composers with a scholar knowledge of music theory and harmony and representing the only true structured and written down music before the advent of more sophisticated forms of popular music (including nowadays modern music) since popular music used to be folk music, mostly improvized. I play classical music on piano and I have a big collection of CDs from Scarlatti to Grieg, from Vivaldi to Sibelius. So I don't want classical music to die.

What I mean by "classical enviroment" is better explained, as I said, in the article I posted. Classical music became the establihsment of a certain elite, it became a status quo rather than an expression with people showing their belonging to an higher social class by attending concerts they didn't even enjoy. In the middle of the 20th century the avantgarde built a thicker wall between the real world and the "classical music" ivory tower. In a way the emotional and expressive dimension was ignored, boycotted by the supremacy of the structure in itself. Pleasure in listening was considered suspect, edonism was a flaw. Everything became ideologically puritanical and snoot. That's why what is a powerful music lost, in the teathers, all its essence, with an audience of unemotional zombies. That's also when composers began to believe that if at least half the audience didn't walk out during the performance of their works, they had failed and their music was worth nothing. And I could mention the ridicolous composition schools environment, with teacher giving bad grades if there wasn't a dynamic mark in every bar (there are funny jokes about what a contemporary sheet music is supposed to look like) Lot of modern soundtrack composers have heap of anecdotes about the closed mindedness and dogmatic behavior of teachers, composers, performers in the "classical environment" and Keith Edwards has a good article about it: Detergent School of Composition

As much as classical music is powefully actracctive, the classical music environment and the concert hall is powerfully repulsive, even for a music lover like me, and I can't blame any person (young or old) if they're not attracted to that world. Competitions like Masterprize are the evidence that people, young or old, are still attracted to classicla/contemporary instrumental music when the environment is friendly and human.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 09:50 PM)

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#1249427 - 08/14/09 09:15 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5291
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
huh?!?

Cathy
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#1249446 - 08/14/09 09:50 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
GreenRain Offline
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Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
I will believe that teenagers love Classical music when they show up at a Classical concert/opera/Cole Porter musical/whatever out of their own accord, and not because their parents or grandparents dragged them there.

Having "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" on your iPod doesn't count as proof. In the long term the Classical music scene is in major trouble if the younger generations cannot be bothered to attend live performances!


We are not talking about proofs, but about classical music. I do not attend concerts. Does that mean i'm not a fan of music?

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#1249449 - 08/14/09 10:02 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Motorama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: GreenRain
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
I will believe that teenagers love Classical music when they show up at a Classical concert/opera/Cole Porter musical/whatever out of their own accord, and not because their parents or grandparents dragged them there.

Having "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" on your iPod doesn't count as proof. In the long term the Classical music scene is in major trouble if the younger generations cannot be bothered to attend live performances!


We are not talking about proofs, but about classical music. I do not attend concerts. Does that mean i'm not a fan of music?


We're also forgetting the impact of commercials and promotions. The reason why people know about Maddona concerts it's because it's publicized in the television, radio and magazines. How did they publicized the premiere of Rite of Spring? How would they publicize the same event nowadays?
How would you publicize classical music cds? I learned about a great rock group called Carpark North from the net. But before finding it out I didn't even know its existence.
Would you think it was my fault not knowing about this group?
So how are people supposed to know and to find out about classical music? (still we must accept that most people might not like it, simple because of subjective taste)

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#1249617 - 08/15/09 03:57 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
angelas Offline
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Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 114
Loc: New Zealand (South Pacific, Do...
I introduced my father to Steely Dan and he introduced me to Brubeck.
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#1249952 - 08/15/09 06:43 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: jotur]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: jotur
I remember when I'd look around at an opera, or a symphony concert, and think "there's only gray hairs here, whose going to be in the audience 40 years from now?"

40 years later - I'm one of the gray-haired ones. And 40 years from now, it'll probably be someone else. Something happened in those 40 years smile


Yes, maybe that's the only hope for Classical live performances, that somehow people are magically turned into Classical music lovers as they age and mellow. Better late than never I suppose. Still, then they've basically missed out on something great their whole lives, and it will be too late for them to teach their offspring. So you see them dragging their grandchildren to concerts.

Originally Posted By: tangleweeds

While I think it's normal for teens to relate best to the music that defines their generation, I believe that those who continue to grow and develop musically will learn to enjoy both new music and music of the past.


The whole concept of a generation being defined by the pop culture of its day is pure marketing BS anyway. Somehow people have become so eager to define themselves by what they like and reject. So we have the Classical music snobs in one corner, who consider everyone retarded who listens to the Top 40, and in the other corner the afficionados of everything new, who wouldn't even give Chopin a chance in the Liberace version. It's absolutely silly!
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#1250233 - 08/16/09 09:59 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: tangleweeds]
OzRadio Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 2
Originally Posted By: tangleweeds
[quote=Motorama]

While there are indeed plenty of people who remain fixated on the music of their adolescence or early adulthood, there are also many of us who find that our tastes in music continue to grow and develop as we age and mature, and I have to admit that I feel a bit sorry for those age peers of mine who still listen to only arena rock of the 70's, or (god help them) the music of the early MTV years.



I agree. I've always thought the whole "get kids into classical" mantra was overstated. I'm 34 and don't listen to any music that I listened to as a teen. My parents owned no classical. I was exposed to it later in life and now it's 95% of my listening. In my opinion classical will be just fine, albeit as a niche market.

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#1250415 - 08/16/09 06:36 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: OzRadio]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
In principle I agree that there is good and bad music in basically every genre. However, the main difference between Classical and contemporary music remains complexity. Bach's music, for example, is mostly in counterpoint, which is far more intellectually stimulating than music that simply manipulates the listener emotionally with chord progressions. Even as a child (and perhaps particularly as a child), one benefits from complexity in art I think. You can learn to love Classical music later in life, but you will not benefit as much from it.

I prefer works of art that are equally fulfilling intellectually and emotionally, and most modern music falls short. Looking at the sheet music of a Top 40 hit single is almost always a disappointment, because then you realize how little substance there is to it musically...

Quoting from one of Josef Hofmann's books, which you can download from archive.org (altough I can never figure out how his name is spelled correctly):

Quote:

BAD MUSIC

Q: Must I persist in playing classical pieces when I prefer to play dance music?

A: If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life.

If you associate with the noble thoughts that constitute good — or, as you call it, classical — music, you will be counted with a higher class in the world of music. Remember that you cannot go through a flour-mill without getting dusty.

Of course, not all pieces of dance music are bad; but the general run of them are such poor, if not vulgar, stuff as hardly to deserve the name of "compositions." Usually they are mere "expositions" of bad taste. Of these I warn you for your own sake, and if you wish to avoid the danger of confounding the good and the bad in that line it is best to abstain from it entirely. If dance music it must be, why, have you never heard of the waltzes and mazurkas by Chopin?

Q: Do you believe the playing of the modern rag-time piece to be actually hurtful to the student?

A: I do, indeed, unless it is done merely for a frolic; though even such a mood might vent itself in better taste. The touch with vulgarity can never be but hurtful, whatever form vulgarity may assume — whether it be a person, or a piece of music. Why share the musical food of those who are, by breeding or circumstance, debarred from anything better? The vulgar impulse which generated rag-time cannot arouse a noble impulse in response any more than "dime novels" can awaken the instincts of gentlemanliness or ladyship.

If we watch the street-sweeper we are liable to get dusty. But remember that the dust on the mind and soul is not so easily removed as the dust on our clothes.
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#1250440 - 08/16/09 07:50 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
"If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life."

You cannot be serious. Anyone who thinks that I'm about to bust my hump and spend four grand and countless hours out of a finite and rapidly passing lifetime merely to asset tribal membership in the right troop of baboons is out of their tiny little mind. If that's all I wanted out of life I could have slept with one of a number of rich men (and gotten another away from his wife if I'd been classless enough to try) one or two decades ago.

It never fails to amazes me how many people who claim to "love" music manage to contrive to actually like as little of it as possible. I suppose the smaller the pond, the bigger a fish one thinks one is.
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#1250446 - 08/16/09 08:03 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
"If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life."

You cannot be serious. Anyone who thinks that I'm about to bust my hump and spend four grand and countless hours out of a finite and rapidly passing lifetime merely to asset tribal membership in the right troop of baboons is out of their tiny little mind. If that's all I wanted out of life I could have slept with one of a number of rich men (and gotten another away from his wife if I'd been classless enough to try) one or two decades ago.

It never fails to amazes me how many people who claim to "love" music manage to contrive to actually like as little of it as possible. I suppose the smaller the pond, the bigger a fish one thinks one is.


The point he is trying to make is simply that your taste in art has repercussions in other parts of your life.

Art is a form of education, and it's up to you whether you want to listen to a Brandenburg Concerto or to some Black dude going on endlessly about how his b___h needs it thrice daily. It's your choice, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with belonging to a certain group, but rather with what is and what isn't good for your soul. Music that elevates vs music that demoralizes is the distinction made here...
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#1251546 - 08/18/09 06:31 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
RobinL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
In principle I agree that there is good and bad music in basically every genre. However, the main difference between Classical and contemporary music remains complexity. Bach's music, for example, is mostly in counterpoint, which is far more intellectually stimulating than music that simply manipulates the listener emotionally with chord progressions. Even as a child (and perhaps particularly as a child), one benefits from complexity in art I think. You can learn to love Classical music later in life, but you will not benefit as much from it.

I prefer works of art that are equally fulfilling intellectually and emotionally, and most modern music falls short. Looking at the sheet music of a Top 40 hit single is almost always a disappointment, because then you realize how little substance there is to it musically...


Perhaps the sheet music is rather simple relative to classical music. But the same experiences can be attained using both - a "simple" song by one of my favourite "pop" singers can give me goosebumps when played live just like one of Brahms' symphonies. And for that matter, so can a good hip-hop. There's more to emotional depth than complexity and sophistication, and as for intellectualising - well I must admit I don't see enjoying listening to music as an intellectual enterprise (although I admit that analysing a piece of music can be intellectually rewarding).



Edited by RobinL (08/18/09 06:34 PM)

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#1251572 - 08/18/09 07:23 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Basia C.]
Terry. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 24
Originally Posted By: Basia C.
Good and bad muscic? All music is good music (within limits grin ). I don't find it very strange that we have different tastes in what sounds exiting and interesting.

Well, to spread interest for classical music I can see the following openings for example:

What classical music DO most people like? One answer is film music. Maybe it would be possible to build up a interest starting from that point of view?

Why do you like classical music? Could the same thing inspire others too? If so, don't hesitate to share.

I think grown-ups might have already desided that they dislike certain music styles, and might not want to change easily. If you want to influence it should be better to start with younger people.

It's probably a lot due to tradition. You like what your parents and other role models like. Why would you like classical if noone at home or among your friends like it? Solution to that would be to create more opportunities for people to listen to classical, and to meet others that do. Classical music getting media attention is probably very important too.
I agree. All types of music are good in their own way, it depends how you view it and what it does for you. Me I love listening to House Music and electronica, but I sitll have love and respect for Jazz and Classical. Not all music is defined as bad because you do not seem to recieve the message it portrays. BE OPEN MINDED MAN!

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#1251579 - 08/18/09 07:35 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
"If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life."

You cannot be serious. Anyone who thinks that I'm about to bust my hump and spend four grand and countless hours out of a finite and rapidly passing lifetime merely to asset tribal membership in the right troop of baboons is out of their tiny little mind. If that's all I wanted out of life I could have slept with one of a number of rich men (and gotten another away from his wife if I'd been classless enough to try) one or two decades ago.

It never fails to amazes me how many people who claim to "love" music manage to contrive to actually like as little of it as possible. I suppose the smaller the pond, the bigger a fish one thinks one is.


The point he is trying to make is simply that your taste in art has repercussions in other parts of your life.

Art is a form of education, and it's up to you whether you want to listen to a Brandenburg Concerto or to some Black dude going on endlessly about how his b___h needs it thrice daily. It's your choice, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with belonging to a certain group, but rather with what is and what isn't good for your soul. Music that elevates vs music that demoralizes is the distinction made here...


And I'm sure that classical is exactly equivalent to music that elevates, and all contemporary music is degrading in all cases.

It may surprise you to know that I would personally equate a great deal of classical music with your "Black dude" (way to badmouth an entire subgroup of humanity there, too). The endless spate of "then the chick dies" in a lot of classical music and opera is, in fact, demoralizing, and oddly enough there isn't a single "Black dude" in sight.

For demoralization, I'd put Violetta dying of tuberculosis to hammer home the message that one strayed, a woman must die pretty far up compared to your average 80s power ballad.

And wasn't it Berlioz who wrote stalker letters to some English actress who jilted him, and then decided he'd murder her and her new husband and only backed out at the last moment? His music sure didn't seem to elevate HIM.

Then, there's Wagner.

Music is music, and if weeping while Butterfly romantically offs herself because some jerk babydaddy flew the coop automatically makes one more "moral" than listening to Christina Aguilera sing that you're beautiful no matter what anyone says ... that's a pretty loused up definition of "moral" by anyone's lights.

But I guess the jerk babydaddy wasn't a "Black dude," so it's okay.


Edited by J Cortese (08/18/09 07:55 PM)
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#1251598 - 08/18/09 08:01 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Whoops, wrong chick in Berlioz's crosshairs, there. It wasn't the actress that he wanted to murder, it was another woman who called off an engagement, and he decided he wanted to murder THREE people and not two. My bad. I can't imagine why she might have wanted to call it off.

The point being that classifying an entire vast gulf of music, all of it written by, played by, and listened to by humans in all their weird diversity, as "moral" or "immoral" depending on nothing more than the age, race, or social stratum of the people who are believed to listen to it is a crock.
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#1251958 - 08/19/09 01:16 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

And I'm sure that classical is exactly equivalent to music that elevates, and all contemporary music is degrading in all cases.

It may surprise you to know that I would personally equate a great deal of classical music with your "Black dude" (way to badmouth an entire subgroup of humanity there, too). The endless spate of "then the chick dies" in a lot of classical music and opera is, in fact, demoralizing, and oddly enough there isn't a single "Black dude" in sight.

For demoralization, I'd put Violetta dying of tuberculosis to hammer home the message that one strayed, a woman must die pretty far up compared to your average 80s power ballad.

And wasn't it Berlioz who wrote stalker letters to some English actress who jilted him, and then decided he'd murder her and her new husband and only backed out at the last moment? His music sure didn't seem to elevate HIM.

Then, there's Wagner.

Music is music, and if weeping while Butterfly romantically offs herself because some jerk babydaddy flew the coop automatically makes one more "moral" than listening to Christina Aguilera sing that you're beautiful no matter what anyone says ... that's a pretty loused up definition of "moral" by anyone's lights.

But I guess the jerk babydaddy wasn't a "Black dude," so it's okay.


That's why I specifically used Bach as an example. Mahler, Liszt, Wagner, Bartok, Schoenberg etc. are sometimes depressing, and sometimes simply musically worthless, so there is definitely a large amount of bad Classical music. Ragtime is almost considered Classical now, so of course Hofmann's rant against ragtime should not be read in the literal sense. At the same time, there is wonderful contemporary music, and especially film scores often rely on liberal "inspiration" from the better 19th century symphonic composers like Brahms.

But the fact remains, the most truly uplifting (and by that I don't mean superficial kitsch as in Pop songs) music is Classical. Nothing contemporary compares. And if you listen more to good Classical music, then Pop, Rock, etc. suddenly seem pretty boring and one-dimensional by comparison. The Happy Meal is less appetizing when you can dine at the French Laundry every night.

And as for the intellectual content of music, of course this is not something one consciously does during listening, unless the music is badly made. For example, with a lot of Beethoven piano music I cannot help but analyze it, because it's so easy to see how it's put together, but e.g. something by Chopin always appears so seamless that I wouldn't even know how to analyze it if I had to. But the subconscious picks up a lot more than the conscious, and I think it grasps the complexity quite well.

Quote:
It may surprise you to know that I would personally equate a great deal of classical music with your "Black dude" (way to badmouth an entire subgroup of humanity there, too). The endless spate of "then the chick dies" in a lot of classical music and opera is, in fact, demoralizing, and oddly enough there isn't a single "Black dude" in sight.


Drama is when everyone dies at the end, comedy is when everyone ends up marrying. Or at least that's what I remember from school. smile

Hollywood has created this weird mix of comedy and drama, where at the last minute everything works out for no particular reason. And I think that has contributed in a big way to the perception that real drama is dark and gloomy. It depends on how you look at it. It seems to me that in drama, people always die because of their own mistakes, whether it's Hamlet or Violetta. So in that sense it's very moral. Good drama is moral because it teaches you that your actions have consequences, whereas most present-day music tells you that lots of sex, violence, and crime are OK, which by definition makes it immoral.
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#1252067 - 08/19/09 04:45 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I looked up the word "classical" in the dictionary. The word is defined (as pertaining to music) as "music of the late 18th and 19th century which is characterized by an emphasis on balance, clarity and moderation."

As for the word "classic," it is defined as that which is held up as the standard of excellence; of recognized value, traditional and enduring."

That's all I have to say because nothing more is needed.

Kathleen
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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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Spelling chords and using correct accidentals
by JoelW
Today at 03:11 AM
HELP! Is this strain because of my technique?
by T.M.E.
Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Is it my technique that's causing this?
by T.M.E.
Yesterday at 10:49 PM
Best brand of upright piano 48" or larger?
by WG40
Yesterday at 10:22 PM
Kawai MP11 vs. Kawai VPC-1 Action / Key Length
by jp2011
Yesterday at 10:00 PM
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