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#1248307 - 08/13/09 08:26 AM Teenagers and classical music
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
It seems that the vast majority of teens dislikes classical music and can't even name any composer beside Mozart, Beethoven, etc...

Many people beleive that it's weird that i love classical music because i'm only 18. So far i have met only 3 people that liked classical music, but even they are listening to it only occasionally.

It seems that many people thinks that every classical piece is just long, boring compositions that never ends... How many people actually knows that an average Chopin piece is 5-10 minutes long?

What do you think should be done to make classical music more popular? Should Lisitza dress like Britney? Would kissin have to put the disco ball on piano?
Seriously, i think that parents should educate their kids about music.
90% of my friends listens to crappy music like Kanye West, Spears, 50 cent, Rihanna etc...
If parents would taught their kids what's good and what's bad music, maybe more people could appreciate classical music.

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#1248318 - 08/13/09 08:42 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 398
Loc: Berlin
No offense, but how can you summarily rule that their music is "bad", while yours is "good"? Wouldn't your friends be entitled to believe it's just the other way around?
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aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#1248330 - 08/13/09 09:03 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Basia C. Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 358
Loc: Sweden
Good and bad muscic? All music is good music (within limits grin ). I don't find it very strange that we have different tastes in what sounds exiting and interesting.

Well, to spread interest for classical music I can see the following openings for example:

What classical music DO most people like? One answer is film music. Maybe it would be possible to build up a interest starting from that point of view?

Why do you like classical music? Could the same thing inspire others too? If so, don't hesitate to share.

I think grown-ups might have already desided that they dislike certain music styles, and might not want to change easily. If you want to influence it should be better to start with younger people.

It's probably a lot due to tradition. You like what your parents and other role models like. Why would you like classical if noone at home or among your friends like it? Solution to that would be to create more opportunities for people to listen to classical, and to meet others that do. Classical music getting media attention is probably very important too.
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Nothing is accomplished without enthusiasm. - Ralph Waldo Emerson




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#1248411 - 08/13/09 11:16 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Basia C.]
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Originally Posted By: Bunneh
No offense, but how can you summarily rule that their music is "bad", while yours is "good"? Wouldn't your friends be entitled to believe it's just the other way around?


I agree that music can be judged only to a certain point. But there are definitely some "artists" that can be "eliminated" easily...

What i love in music is creativity. I love unique songs or pieces. I love artists that are creative, artists with talent...

The singers that i pointed out in my point are all sell outs. They create music that is popular. They have very little talent and they do not care about they artistic freedom...

I don't mind if someone listens to them, but the sad thing is, that so little people appreciate different and quality music... Most people listens to "catchy" commercial songs that can be written in 5 minutes...



Originally Posted By: Basia C.
Good and bad muscic? All music is good music (within limits grin ). I don't find it very strange that we have different tastes in what sounds exiting and interesting.

Well, to spread interest for classical music I can see the following openings for example:

What classical music DO most people like? One answer is film music. Maybe it would be possible to build up a interest starting from that point of view?

Why do you like classical music? Could the same thing inspire others too? If so, don't hesitate to share.

I think grown-ups might have already desided that they dislike certain music styles, and might not want to change easily. If you want to influence it should be better to start with younger people.

It's probably a lot due to tradition. You like what your parents and other role models like. Why would you like classical if noone at home or among your friends like it? Solution to that would be to create more opportunities for people to listen to classical, and to meet others that do. Classical music getting media attention is probably very important too.


I disagree that all the music is good. I am not suprised that we have different tastes, but with the fact, that some people do not care for the quality of music. In every ganre you can find good singers... Metal, rock, country, pop, soul, funk...

I do agree with you about the last part of your posts. I have noticed that many people are listening to the music that others are. I found this pretty sad. Although i'm only 18, I listen completely different music that my friends... Chopin, Brahms, Alkan, Michael Jackson and Nine Inch Nails are not excatly "most wanted" amongst my friends (Although everyone likes at least one MJ's song).

I still insist that parents should expose the kids to different styles of music...
My nephew is only 12 years and he has a great taste (Beatles, Lennon etc...) because his father listens to good and various music...

When i'll have kids, i will definitely expose them to all styles...

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#1248482 - 08/13/09 12:46 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
NocturneLover Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Dantooine
Times change and back in Beethoven's time, classical music was pop music. I too had many peers who only listened to hip-hop and rap and although those songs do sound cool, nothing enriches your soul like classical music.

The other day I was listening to Chopin Nocturne op. 9 no. 2 on Youtube and I realized there was a suspiciously high number of views and it turned out there was a group named "Muse" who had this piece at the end of one of their songs. This is how the masses are acquainted with classical music, and frankly I think it is a good idea for uber-popular artists to include classical music. This is how the teenage population is exposed to it.

The same can be said for Clair de Lune, which in fact owes its popularity to many of the movies such as Twilight and Ocean's that feature it. Who knows? After hearing the piece in their favorite movie, some teens will want to take up piano and they will develop a more cultured love of classical music. wink
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"...music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." -Ludwig van Beethoven

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#1248508 - 08/13/09 01:15 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Basia C. Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 358
Loc: Sweden
There certainly is music I like, and music I don't like; music I think is played well and music I think is played poorly. However, I believe that it's not really possible to have an absolutly objective definition of what quality is that is always valid for art or music.

Wasn't it Mendelsohn's music that was bad just because Wagner said so? (And didn't Wagner even change his mind about it?!) And the impressionists' paintings were considered horrible for a long time. Or take a look at the discussion in the thread about the dark side of competitions in pianists corner; everyone in that thread is not agreeing on how to judge quality.

To make it even more complex, we certainly do not choose by appeared quality alone. Sometimes I buy fast food just because it tastes nice and I'm in a hurry, not because it's particulary well made. A kid might want a schoolbag that looks like the other kids', not one that is original. And sometimes we simply go for the best price. There is nothing really wrong with that. As for music someone migh like an artist because of the lyrics, the interesting rythms, because the artist is from their home town or happened to be playing live at their first date.

What I want to say is that you will not be sucessful in convincing someone to have a try listening to your favorite music if you tell them their idol can't sing. wink

( By the way, we have a Swedish artist, Robert Wells, that is really terrific in spreading interest for music, including classical. He has a classical background, but he is amazing in all gengres and mixes all styles in his concerts. http://www.wellsmusic.se/ )

Generally speaking, I think we are going towards a little better times when it comes to classical music. My impression is that people do listen more to different kinds of music nowdays. A teenager might actually have both a piece of Mozart and a classical movie theme along with rap and heavy metal on the Mp3. What do you think?
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#1248512 - 08/13/09 01:21 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1074
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: GreenRain
It seems that the vast majority of teens dislikes classical music and can't even name any composer beside Mozart, Beethoven, etc...

Many people beleive that it's weird that i love classical music because i'm only 18. So far i have met only 3 people that liked classical music, but even they are listening to it only occasionally.

It seems that many people thinks that every classical piece is just long, boring compositions that never ends... How many people actually knows that an average Chopin piece is 5-10 minutes long?

What do you think should be done to make classical music more popular? Should Lisitza dress like Britney? Would kissin have to put the disco ball on piano?
Seriously, i think that parents should educate their kids about music.
90% of my friends listens to crappy music like Kanye West, Spears, 50 cent, Rihanna etc...
If parents would taught their kids what's good and what's bad music, maybe more people could appreciate classical music.


For my daughter's birthday I gave her some cash, and one of the places we went was Guitar Center, where she and I picked out 3 guitar books. One I picked, had classical pieces, just because the tablature was easy to read and it was at about her level. She instantly fell in love with the simplified version of Moonlight Sonata, and has also started working on Fur Elise. I didn't push it, I just put it out there. Her summer guitar class at the local junior college (she's 16 and in high school, but can take classes there)was great... The instructor gave out weekly packets including famous rock guitar riffs from Roy Orbison to heavy metal, along with country finger picking and a classical piece. So adults just need to put the classical out there as one choice among many, and as other posters have said, all music can be good or bad...I like classical, jazz, blues, rock, folk, country, dixieland, R & B, boogie woogie, heavy metal, and we listen to everything in our home.

Perhaps when you're starting your own family you might try to be open minded to other types of music besides classical, otherwise your own kids might just end up hating it.

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#1248526 - 08/13/09 01:44 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Nikalette]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
They're probably a lot more familiar with more classical pieces than they think -- the music itself I mean, not who wrote what and whose picture you show them. Play them some Grieg, and I guarantee they'll know it. A Rossini overture or two, they'll know it, some Wagner, they'll know it. They just don't know what they know, for a better way of putting it.

And I also don't quite buy the polarization of "good" music and "bad" music. If you accept that 90% of everything is crap, then most music sucks, including most classical. And most of it IS junk. There's over 500 years of the stuff if you broaden the term; it can't all be good. It's stacking the deck to compare several centuries of music, which has had time to boil away and leave only the best of the best, with only a few decades of modern stuff.

I'd definitely say that good classical is better and more creative and beautiful than a lot of the McCrap you find around today ... but better than Simon & Garfunkel? Better than Billy Joel or Queen? Better than Elton John, Carole King, Journey, Stevie Wonder, or Carly Simon? Mmmmm ... not so much. Luciano and Bubbles can kick the collective asses of most modern singers, too -- but Frank Sinatra? Sam Cooke? Cass Elliot? Ann Wilson? Steve Perry? Barbra Streisand? Mmmmmmm ... again, not so much. (There's probably a few people around today who will assume a position in the modern "classical" canon, too. I'm just not as tuned into what young people are listening to today.)

In general though, don't forget that you're comparing the best of the best of about 400 years of music with a form of music that is younger than some people posting here.

And definitely open yourself up to more forms; I was raised on classical and opera in my house and loved it. I still do. But the late seventies were when I first became aware of "outside" music, just in time for rock to hit a period of extravagant melodic performance with hugely popular, very high solo male voices. Am I ever glad of that. I would rank "Send Her My Love" alongside "Una furtiva lagrima" in a heartbeat. And if you ever want to see Baroque opera in its native format as it might have truly looked 300 years ago, I recommend you watch Styx perform "Kilroy Was Here."

And I like listening to cheez-whiz sometimes, too. *shrug* Sometimes you want a gourmet meal, sometimes you want a burger and fries.


Edited by J Cortese (08/13/09 01:45 PM)
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#1248639 - 08/13/09 05:18 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
RobinL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: GreenRain

The singers that i pointed out in my point are all sell outs. They create music that is popular. They have very little talent and they do not care about they artistic freedom...



Surely to create music that is popular requires talent? I accept not all of them write their own songs, but I think Mr. West does.

I listen to classical and pop - take the best of everything I say.

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#1248651 - 08/13/09 05:44 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: RobinL]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
"Sellout" just means popular sometimes, although I do understand that there is a kind of pre-produced mass "talent" that seems to fall into that category, and that the "talent" involved is usually talent in the marketing and plastic surgery and not in the songwriting.

But a lot of times, anything that's well-loved is also called a sellout, no matter the uniqueness or brilliance and beauty of the music itself. It's a word that has a meaning that's often lost in the noise of people using it to attack anything well-loved.

I remember the old slam directed toward a lot of what are now regarded as excellent bands in the 80s: "corporate rock." All it appeared to mean was that the band members could actually play their instruments and no one had choked on vomit or destroyed themselves with heroin before the age of 30. Sure, there was pre-packaged McMusic at that time with better marketing and gloss than lyrics, but that was never the stuff that got slammed.
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#1248688 - 08/13/09 07:13 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: GreenRain

What do you think should be done to make classical music more popular? Should Lisitza dress like Britney? Would kissin have to put the disco ball on piano?
Seriously, i think that parents should educate their kids about music.
90% of my friends listens to crappy music like Kanye West, Spears, 50 cent, Rihanna etc...
If parents would taught their kids what's good and what's bad music, maybe more people could appreciate classical music.


I think it's more about people shying away from complexity in all its forms. If Classical music is like reading a novel, most contemporary music is like watching the movie version. The latter is easily accessible and quickly forgotten, while the former takes a bit of effort and imagination, but is much more rewarding in the long term.

The problem is that many parents today have only been exposed to rock and pop music in their youth themselves, so there is little they can teach their children about more intricate forms of music. I frequently go to Classical music concerts here in Boulder, and it seems like the median age is around 60 to 70. It's pretty sad, really. The current generation of children will have to overcome the cultural ignorance of their parents' generation on their own it seems.

If anything, a youth who appreciates and prefers Classical music (which of course does not mean never listening to anything else) simply has good taste and in all likeliness above-average intelligence.
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#1248749 - 08/13/09 08:52 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
BarbVA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 166
I find this an interesting topic from someone who claims to be "only 18", when I was 18, it was "I AM 18", had my own place and responsible for and supported myself. I'm not trying to be rude, but how many of us really grasped in our teenage years the appreciation for our parent’s music, whether it is Classical, County, Bluegrass, Heavy Metal or Rock?

Could it not be said that perhaps some parents spend more time teaching their children proper grammar? Why are the parents to fault? Should the question simply not be, why can't more teenagers accept and enjoy the beauty of classical music? Why does it have to be the parent's fault?

On that note, I have 5 children ages 6-23. Two of them enjoy classical music. My 16-year-old boy puts it on every night as he says it helps him sleep. My 23 year old asks me all the time if I've learned certain classical pieces yet, I've not. But he wants to know as soon as I do because he loves those songs. So why is it my fault that 2 of my 5 children enjoy it and the other 3 don't? Answer, it's not, everyone develops their own taste and style in music genre and it may change throughout the years, but it is NOT the parent’s fault that your friends listen to what they listen to. I'm sure their parents are just as mortified.

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#1248844 - 08/13/09 11:24 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: BarbVA]
Mozartfan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 7
Well I too know this, I used to be a teenager myself about 2 years ago, but most of my friends think the same about classical music. I can tell you stuff like electro house is not music because it's not properly structured other genres yes.

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#1248850 - 08/13/09 11:30 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Mozartfan]
Sean-Patrick Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 20
Im 14 and im a HUGE classical Music fan! Prefer romantic era though.. Chopin ftw! And honestly- I think 'good' and 'bad' music varies from person to person. Bare in mind, one mans meat is another mans poisin. smile

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#1248917 - 08/14/09 05:14 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
I loved classical music when I was a teenage and my children also love classical music today. The reason is very likely because my parents love classical music. Still, I found few of my friends in high school cared for it. Some of them are still friends and we still get together but what we have in common isn't music - more like life, parenting, jobs, the economy.... It's ok that most 18-year-olds can't name composers other than Mozart or Beethoven. Do you realize the score from the Transformers movie is classical music. It's good and my kids love it too, so do many 18-year-olds, but they don't realize it's classical music because it's cool or hot if you're refering to Ms. Megan Fox.

There are many phases in life, and being 18 is about fitting in, friends, talking about music. You just need to find 18 year olds that also enjoy classical. Rare but they are out there. I found some when I was 18, not easy. The good news is, by the time you are 30, nobody cares what you listen to, and by the time you are 40, you don't care what anybody else listens to.
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#1248970 - 08/14/09 09:07 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Larry B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 377
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

And I also don't quite buy the polarization of "good" music and "bad" music. If you accept that 90% of everything is crap, then most music sucks, including most classical. And most of it IS junk. There's over 500 years of the stuff if you broaden the term; it can't all be good. It's stacking the deck to compare several centuries of music, which has had time to boil away and leave only the best of the best, with only a few decades of modern stuff.


Beautifully put! And your examples are perfect.

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#1249166 - 08/14/09 02:00 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Larry B]
Motorama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
Spear is pretty talented to me.
But I consider Britney Spears as the combination of all her producers, composers, lyricists, mixers and so on.

In many of her songs I feel creativity, talent, original sound management and I'm entertained while I listen to it, which is what is important. So I don't think there is any objective way to classify bad music and you're wrong if you think you've found one.

That being said music is first of all communication and social aggregation (as explained in Levitin's book "The worlds in six songs) and the most natural and smartest thing a human can do is to possess a musical culture which is up to date and to devote most of his musical knowledge to modern popular music expressions. That's how you feel part of a society and its expressions.

So classical music is great to me and I love it and its complexity and structure is due to past circumstances and to past ways of expression. Likewise the minimalism of our modern music fits perfectly our modern times, our social dynamics and our technology. You're forgetting that even "classical composers" started to promote minimalism, futurism or "presentism" if you want, which makes the argument about shying away from complexity rather irrelavant.

Whatever conservatives say, it's the most natural thing for a young person to be attracted more to what is modern than what is old, in fact we have to thank this instinct if there's such a thing a progress.

I still think that music appreciation is individual and that people have a right to dislike classical music and we have the right to respect their taste, like they would respect the fact that I might dislike a lot of music they like.

Complexity means nothing, it's the most meaningless thing ever, complexity is not conscious, it just happens. No composer plans to compose a "complex" piece, he just composes according to his inspiration and complexity might or might not be needed, in that specific case, to express what he wants to express.

There's nothing about classical music inherently better than any other music, there's nothing about classical music that should make its appreciation and knowledge compulsory. Classical music is first of all historical music, music of the past, music inspired by circumstances that are defunct now and will never come back.

Whatever school or government program or project to make people appreciate classical music would not only be useless but also offensive. People don't need to appreciate classical music, period. You want to educate people in music, you want to cultivate their musical comprehension and appreciation? Good, but use the kind of music they, as individuals, like.
So the black metal lover should be forced to appreciate classical music, but should be helped in having a deeper understanding of the music he likes, its structure, its history, its social meaning. That's the only kind of musical appreciation education we can put forward.

Also, let's not forget that it's music people don't listen. There's a big difference between music and songs.
In songs the lyrics are even more important than the music.
But it's instrumental music fault for having broken the bridge between popular music, popular audience and contemporary instrumental music. It's contemporary music that isolated itself in a ivory tower of closed mindedness and arrogance.

Project like Masterprize, are the evidence that people of every kind and age, are attracted to classical and contemporary music when an effort is made to remove all the snob holier than thou attitude from that music and its performers. Soundtrack suites are another example of the interest people have for instrumental music.

Unfortunately theaters and halls still have that snob and unenthusiastic attitude that turns people off. Keith Edwards explains it better than I could in this article:

The Future of Classical Music


As for teenegers, I would avoid making stereotypes about the their tastes. The truth is that whether you take a group of teenagers or a group of old adults or a group of parents, there will always be just few free thinking, enlightened individuals in the group. The rest will always comform. So there isn't the slightest difference between teens or older adults, they're just individuals, each different from the other and more or less influenced by social conformism.

Also, it's not like all young people are trying to be fashionable or are interested in shallow culture (one aspect of pop culture, there's also a lot of non shallow pop culture) Life isn't an episode of Hannah Montana or Lizzie McGuire and real people at not like that.

There are millions of kids taking music lessons, playing in orchestra or bands, practicing piano and most of them love classical music and knows a lot about it.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 06:11 PM)

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#1249212 - 08/14/09 03:08 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
I don't have the time to reply on every post now, but I definitely will tomorrow!

But i just want to say that some people missunderstood me. I'm not saying that all and only classical music is good. I also listen varios singers and bands. I am not listening to the classical music more than 50% of the time.

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#1249318 - 08/14/09 06:03 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: GreenRain
I don't have the time to reply on every post now, but I definitely will tomorrow!

But i just want to say that some people missunderstood me. I'm not saying that all and only classical music is good. I also listen varios singers and bands. I am not listening to the classical music more than 50% of the time.



Yeah, I think we did sort of wander off from where you started ... but I also think that the definition of what constitutes classical music is a bit broader, and that some of the stuff that the kids you were talking about listen to is probably slotting into the classical canon as we speak.

And I also think that they probably know more classical music than they think they do. It's just not fashionable to act like it. :-)
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#1249322 - 08/14/09 06:15 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
I will believe that teenagers love Classical music when they show up at a Classical concert/opera/Cole Porter musical/whatever out of their own accord, and not because their parents or grandparents dragged them there.

Having "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" on your iPod doesn't count as proof. In the long term the Classical music scene is in major trouble if the younger generations cannot be bothered to attend live performances!
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#1249335 - 08/14/09 06:51 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
Motorama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
That got nothing to do with teenagers.
The classical music world is apethetic and closed minded and is making people of all kind shy away from it. Read the article I posted. The classical music scene has been in major trouble for at leat fitty year and it's nothing but its fault.

Anyway classical music is just music.
I love fantasy and fantasy novels but I don't get alarmed by realizing that lot of people don't like that kind of literature and it's their right not to. The topic is way more complex than exploiting lame stereotypes about young people, when I know more young people who love classical music than people in their 40's or 50's.

Classical music doesn't strike a chord in everyone.
I have known eleven year old kids that after listening to a classical piece on the radio, wanted immediately to know more about that music and started to buy cds and to read specialized magazines. Likewise I have known lot of adults that couldn't give a care.

I still think that it's pretty natural for a society to be more knowledgeable about the music of its present than the music of its past, because it's the music of the present that expresses social dynamics according to the sensitivity and circumstance of the present. If the music of the past wants to be more known and appreciated, those promoting it must find ways to make it more appealing, accessible, affordable ... first of all by getting rid of that ridicolous patronizing snoot attitude.

Anyway the best evidence that among teens, like in whatever other group, there are several classical music lover, is the fact that millions of teens are studying music and playing an instrument.

During the classical era no one would listen to baroque music.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 07:09 PM)

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#1249336 - 08/14/09 06:52 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
jotur Offline
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I remember when I'd look around at an opera, or a symphony concert, and think "there's only gray hairs here, whose going to be in the audience 40 years from now?"

40 years later - I'm one of the gray-haired ones. And 40 years from now, it'll probably be someone else. Something happened in those 40 years smile

Cathy

"who's", dum-dum.

smile

"dumb-dumb", dumb-dumb.

laugh


Edited by jotur (08/14/09 07:33 PM)
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#1249345 - 08/14/09 07:06 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: jotur]
Motorama Offline
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The reason why people in their 70's listen, probably, more classical music, is that when they were young most of the LPs available were classical music. Classical music has been the first one to be recorded for the phonograph, so there was more classical music around than pop music. It's a sort of old age traditionalism that lead people to get back to what they used to listen when they were young.

When the 5 year olds of nowadays will be 70, they will probably listen to "old music" which will be the music we consider now modern and not classical music.

But my hope is that concert halls will be desert soon, that's the only way to seriously hope for a reform in the classical environment ... to get rid of the snoot vibes, of the old dead weights, of all the pseudointellectual ilk and give classical music back the life sparkle it deserves.

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#1249349 - 08/14/09 07:21 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: jotur]
angelas Offline
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Hey...you go GreenRain. I'm with you on the music thing. I reckon there's heaps of crap out there and do not subscribe to the doctrine that there is "no good or bad music". I'm only a beginner piano player but know decent music from crap and there's a lot of crap out there. Half of it is females gyrating, half-naked in front of the camera and about 30% is rap or R&B and then there is death metal, thrash metal and punk (usually guys screaming into a mic with or without hair).

My dad love light opera, jazz and blues and mum loved Dusty Sprigfield, Elvis, Gene Pitney. I couldn't abide it as a kid but funny though, that as the years have rolled on, I've gone back a little to the stuff my parents listened to - particularly jazz and blues and have found myself trying to get the kids into Steely Dan, the Doobies, Supertramp and mostly 70's stuff. If they moan, they get disco or Frank Sinatra. I just love disco and Frank. My kids don't always get it but I think they appreciate it a little more as the days roll by - not that the world evolves around my music tastes, but I think there's more to music than Britney and Rihanna. You wouldn't go to a concert to hear an arrangement of "oops I did it again" or "umbrella" or something by Lady gaga.
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#1249353 - 08/14/09 07:29 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: angelas]
J Cortese Offline
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I don't think classical concerts will become deserts ... but they will change, if only because the latest generation of classical musicians are coming from an age cohort that took rock and pop for granted as good music.

Classical music will never quite catch up to today's pop, but it shouldn't really. "Classical" means immortal, and you can't tell what's immortal and what isn't until enough years go by for the corpses to start piling up. You can't tell what's timeless and what isn't right then and there.

So it'll always be a generation or two out of sync, but contemporary music of some form will find itself a place there. And like jotur said, there's always greyhairs around. :-)

Also -- one additional little bit -- classical music concerts can't be called entirely snooty because they're just so damned much CHEAPER than pop concerts. I paid $50 to hear Andreas Scholl sing, and as much as I like his voice, if Perry ever went back on tour, I'd probably have to fork over two grand for SROs. For $150, I can hear Placido Domingo this November. That wouldn't get you within 50 miles of a Prince or Madonna concert. *grumble grumble* Tell ME what the true "music of the people" is ... *steps off personal soapbox*
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#1249363 - 08/14/09 07:40 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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Comparing classical music to pop music is like comparing apples to orange. They're completely different. The circumstance in which they were created, their role in society, the social dynamics they cover, the means by which they're promoted.

No one can tell what crap music is, because there's no objective way to define good or bad music. Tchaikovsky is still considered crap by a lot of educated listeners as he was 100 year ago.

Seated tickets category 2 for Madonna concert was 95$

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#1249364 - 08/14/09 07:40 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
tangleweeds Offline

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Originally Posted By: Motorama
The reason why people in their 70's listen, probably, more classical music, is that when they were young most of the LPs available were classical music. Classical music has been the first one to be recorded for the phonograph, so there was more classical music around than pop music.


I think your sense of history is a bit off. The first phonograph was patented by Edison in 1878, and by the 1920's there were plenty of recordings of the pop music of the day, which are now treasured as examples of early jazz. And if you do the math, people now in their 70's would have grown up listening to the pop music if the war years, which was big band and swing, while people a little younger were the first rock and roll generation.

While there are indeed plenty of people who remain fixated on the music of their adolescence or early adulthood, there are also many of us who find that our tastes in music continue to grow and develop as we age and mature, and I have to admit that I feel a bit sorry for those age peers of mine who still listen to only arena rock of the 70's, or (god help them) the music of the early MTV years.

I've discovered and enjoyed so many different styles of music since then, such as classic jazz, world music, or later classical composers like Bartok and Stravinsky (I was a big Bach fan as a teen, but didn't like anything post-baroque).

While I think it's normal for teens to relate best to the music that defines their generation, I believe that those who continue to grow and develop musically will learn to enjoy both new music and music of the past.
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#1249368 - 08/14/09 07:49 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
J Cortese Offline
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Originally Posted By: Motorama
Comparing classical music to pop music is like comparing apples to orange. They're completely different. The circumstance in which they were created, their role in society, the social dynamics they cover, the means by which they're promoted.


If you can demonstrate to me the difference between a Baroque opera and a Styx concept album, including the way in which it was received by the audience, I'll eat my hat, your hat, and any other hat you toss at me.

"Classical" music is not one type of music, you know. We're talking half a millennium of stuff, here. Pop and rock are much the same -- you can't find me one metalhead who will cop to listening to a boyband.


Edited by J Cortese (08/14/09 07:50 PM)
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#1249370 - 08/14/09 07:50 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: tangleweeds]
Motorama Offline
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Originally Posted By: tangleweeds
[quote=Motorama]
While there are indeed plenty of people who remain fixated on the music of their adolescence or early adulthood, there are also many of us who find that our tastes in music continue to grow and develop


But growing and developing doesn't mean following the classical or complex musical path. Actually, for someone listening to a lot of operas and classical in their youth, having their taste growing and developing might mean discovering pop music and electronic music. Can you see how relative the whole concept is? The pattern might often be from complexity to semplificty and minimal, rather than the other way around.

Quote:
While I think it's normal for teens to relate best to the music that defines their generation, I believe that those who continue to grow and develop musically will learn to enjoy both new music and music of the past.


It's normal for every human of whatever age to relate best to the music that defines their living era (in fact I have a book of a sociologists who blame it on old people for becoming old, meaning mentally old, focused on the past rather than the present, which is their present too) and yes it's perfectly normal to enjoy music of the past too. What I think is not normal is to enjoy and know only the past and enojy nothing and know nothing of the present. That's humanly flawed imo.

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#1249377 - 08/14/09 07:55 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
J Cortese Offline
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As long as you're always interested in something unfamiliar and curious, I think that's all that matters. Sometimes, old people find pleasure in what's old because that's how they grow. They were fascinated by newness when young, and now the past is the great unknown frontier to them. They may not simply be "stuck" in the past, they may be exploring it themselves with interest and curiosity now that they themselves are old.

The older I get, the more interested I'm becoming in VERY old music, like early Renaissance and medieval stuff. The sort of stuff they wrote before they entirely knew how to get different instruments to manage not to sound like crap together.

I'm sure this will be interpreted by some as a middle-aged woman becoming stuffy in her old age, but to me, this stuff's totally new. There's a LOT of "the past" to play with. And the kicker is that the whole damn thing was occasioned by my listening to a bunch of 80s arena rock and realizing that most of those guys were chest-voice countertenors.


Edited by J Cortese (08/14/09 07:56 PM)
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#1249380 - 08/14/09 07:57 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Originally Posted By: Motorama
Comparing classical music to pop music is like comparing apples to orange. They're completely different. The circumstance in which they were created, their role in society, the social dynamics they cover, the means by which they're promoted.


If you can demonstrate to me the difference between a Baroque opera and a Styx concept album, including the way in which it was received by the audience, I'll eat my hat, your hat, and any other hat you toss at me.


The difference can't be summarized in few words because it's a complex environment difference. It's like the difference between a Charlie Chaplin movie and a modern movie. You might claim that the portrayal of humans and society is still faithful in his movies as it is in modern movies, but no one will ever be able to make that kind of movies again, because the social circumstances that influenced them are not there anymore. The same for a Beethoven sonata, the reason why he composed that kind of music it's because of social influences and circumstances that belong to the past are not coming back.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 08:01 PM)

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#1249391 - 08/14/09 08:08 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
J Cortese Offline
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Okay, so there's just as much difference between all forms of music.

Metal, pop, boyband, melodic rock, disco. All totally different.

Beethoven, Haendel, Mozart, Schumann, Strozzi, Berlioz, Prokofiev ... all totally different.

At that point, you can't distinguish between ANY form of music, and so categorizing anything as "classical" versus "contemporary" is meaningless.

And besides -- I'm not asking that question casually. Convince me you know why I'm comparing those two. It's not THAT complex. If people can write concisely about the start of World War Two, they can write concisely about this.


Edited by J Cortese (08/14/09 08:11 PM)
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#1249397 - 08/14/09 08:18 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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Classical music is a pretty meaningless term I agree as it doesn't define any genre. On the other hand there are well defined genres in the classical music group like romantic, classical, baroque, neoromantic, impressionistic, minimalist. And they are the equivalent of modern and pop music genres (disco, new age, melodic rock, techno and so on)

Still what contemporary or modern music means is pretty straight forward. No Doubt, being a rock punk band from 90's is neither modern nor contemporary. This of course is a chronological definition and says nothing about the quality (subjective concept) and the genre of the music I'm talking about.

I don't know anything about Styx.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 08:19 PM)

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#1249402 - 08/14/09 08:23 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
J Cortese Offline
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Maybe if you actually defined what you think these terms DO mean instead of what they don't, and not reactively, there might be hope of an actual conversation here. clearly, you think the word "classical" means something or else you wouldn't be expecting/hoping so fervently for it to die out.


Edited by J Cortese (08/14/09 08:23 PM)
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#1249416 - 08/14/09 09:01 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Motorama Offline
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I love classical music which to me defines the accademic instrumental music in its classical forms (sonata, symphony, concert ...) created by composers with a scholar knowledge of music theory and harmony and representing the only true structured and written down music before the advent of more sophisticated forms of popular music (including nowadays modern music) since popular music used to be folk music, mostly improvized. I play classical music on piano and I have a big collection of CDs from Scarlatti to Grieg, from Vivaldi to Sibelius. So I don't want classical music to die.

What I mean by "classical enviroment" is better explained, as I said, in the article I posted. Classical music became the establihsment of a certain elite, it became a status quo rather than an expression with people showing their belonging to an higher social class by attending concerts they didn't even enjoy. In the middle of the 20th century the avantgarde built a thicker wall between the real world and the "classical music" ivory tower. In a way the emotional and expressive dimension was ignored, boycotted by the supremacy of the structure in itself. Pleasure in listening was considered suspect, edonism was a flaw. Everything became ideologically puritanical and snoot. That's why what is a powerful music lost, in the teathers, all its essence, with an audience of unemotional zombies. That's also when composers began to believe that if at least half the audience didn't walk out during the performance of their works, they had failed and their music was worth nothing. And I could mention the ridicolous composition schools environment, with teacher giving bad grades if there wasn't a dynamic mark in every bar (there are funny jokes about what a contemporary sheet music is supposed to look like) Lot of modern soundtrack composers have heap of anecdotes about the closed mindedness and dogmatic behavior of teachers, composers, performers in the "classical environment" and Keith Edwards has a good article about it: Detergent School of Composition

As much as classical music is powefully actracctive, the classical music environment and the concert hall is powerfully repulsive, even for a music lover like me, and I can't blame any person (young or old) if they're not attracted to that world. Competitions like Masterprize are the evidence that people, young or old, are still attracted to classicla/contemporary instrumental music when the environment is friendly and human.


Edited by Motorama (08/14/09 09:50 PM)

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#1249427 - 08/14/09 09:15 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Motorama]
jotur Offline
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huh?!?

Cathy
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#1249446 - 08/14/09 09:50 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
GreenRain Offline
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Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
I will believe that teenagers love Classical music when they show up at a Classical concert/opera/Cole Porter musical/whatever out of their own accord, and not because their parents or grandparents dragged them there.

Having "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" on your iPod doesn't count as proof. In the long term the Classical music scene is in major trouble if the younger generations cannot be bothered to attend live performances!


We are not talking about proofs, but about classical music. I do not attend concerts. Does that mean i'm not a fan of music?

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#1249449 - 08/14/09 10:02 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: GreenRain]
Motorama Offline
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Originally Posted By: GreenRain
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
I will believe that teenagers love Classical music when they show up at a Classical concert/opera/Cole Porter musical/whatever out of their own accord, and not because their parents or grandparents dragged them there.

Having "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" on your iPod doesn't count as proof. In the long term the Classical music scene is in major trouble if the younger generations cannot be bothered to attend live performances!


We are not talking about proofs, but about classical music. I do not attend concerts. Does that mean i'm not a fan of music?


We're also forgetting the impact of commercials and promotions. The reason why people know about Maddona concerts it's because it's publicized in the television, radio and magazines. How did they publicized the premiere of Rite of Spring? How would they publicize the same event nowadays?
How would you publicize classical music cds? I learned about a great rock group called Carpark North from the net. But before finding it out I didn't even know its existence.
Would you think it was my fault not knowing about this group?
So how are people supposed to know and to find out about classical music? (still we must accept that most people might not like it, simple because of subjective taste)

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#1249617 - 08/15/09 03:57 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
angelas Offline
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I introduced my father to Steely Dan and he introduced me to Brubeck.
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#1249952 - 08/15/09 06:43 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: jotur]
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Originally Posted By: jotur
I remember when I'd look around at an opera, or a symphony concert, and think "there's only gray hairs here, whose going to be in the audience 40 years from now?"

40 years later - I'm one of the gray-haired ones. And 40 years from now, it'll probably be someone else. Something happened in those 40 years smile


Yes, maybe that's the only hope for Classical live performances, that somehow people are magically turned into Classical music lovers as they age and mellow. Better late than never I suppose. Still, then they've basically missed out on something great their whole lives, and it will be too late for them to teach their offspring. So you see them dragging their grandchildren to concerts.

Originally Posted By: tangleweeds

While I think it's normal for teens to relate best to the music that defines their generation, I believe that those who continue to grow and develop musically will learn to enjoy both new music and music of the past.


The whole concept of a generation being defined by the pop culture of its day is pure marketing BS anyway. Somehow people have become so eager to define themselves by what they like and reject. So we have the Classical music snobs in one corner, who consider everyone retarded who listens to the Top 40, and in the other corner the afficionados of everything new, who wouldn't even give Chopin a chance in the Liberace version. It's absolutely silly!
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#1250233 - 08/16/09 09:59 AM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: tangleweeds]
OzRadio Offline
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Registered: 06/02/09
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Originally Posted By: tangleweeds
[quote=Motorama]

While there are indeed plenty of people who remain fixated on the music of their adolescence or early adulthood, there are also many of us who find that our tastes in music continue to grow and develop as we age and mature, and I have to admit that I feel a bit sorry for those age peers of mine who still listen to only arena rock of the 70's, or (god help them) the music of the early MTV years.



I agree. I've always thought the whole "get kids into classical" mantra was overstated. I'm 34 and don't listen to any music that I listened to as a teen. My parents owned no classical. I was exposed to it later in life and now it's 95% of my listening. In my opinion classical will be just fine, albeit as a niche market.

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#1250415 - 08/16/09 06:36 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: OzRadio]
Martin C. Doege Offline
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In principle I agree that there is good and bad music in basically every genre. However, the main difference between Classical and contemporary music remains complexity. Bach's music, for example, is mostly in counterpoint, which is far more intellectually stimulating than music that simply manipulates the listener emotionally with chord progressions. Even as a child (and perhaps particularly as a child), one benefits from complexity in art I think. You can learn to love Classical music later in life, but you will not benefit as much from it.

I prefer works of art that are equally fulfilling intellectually and emotionally, and most modern music falls short. Looking at the sheet music of a Top 40 hit single is almost always a disappointment, because then you realize how little substance there is to it musically...

Quoting from one of Josef Hofmann's books, which you can download from archive.org (altough I can never figure out how his name is spelled correctly):

Quote:

BAD MUSIC

Q: Must I persist in playing classical pieces when I prefer to play dance music?

A: If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life.

If you associate with the noble thoughts that constitute good — or, as you call it, classical — music, you will be counted with a higher class in the world of music. Remember that you cannot go through a flour-mill without getting dusty.

Of course, not all pieces of dance music are bad; but the general run of them are such poor, if not vulgar, stuff as hardly to deserve the name of "compositions." Usually they are mere "expositions" of bad taste. Of these I warn you for your own sake, and if you wish to avoid the danger of confounding the good and the bad in that line it is best to abstain from it entirely. If dance music it must be, why, have you never heard of the waltzes and mazurkas by Chopin?

Q: Do you believe the playing of the modern rag-time piece to be actually hurtful to the student?

A: I do, indeed, unless it is done merely for a frolic; though even such a mood might vent itself in better taste. The touch with vulgarity can never be but hurtful, whatever form vulgarity may assume — whether it be a person, or a piece of music. Why share the musical food of those who are, by breeding or circumstance, debarred from anything better? The vulgar impulse which generated rag-time cannot arouse a noble impulse in response any more than "dime novels" can awaken the instincts of gentlemanliness or ladyship.

If we watch the street-sweeper we are liable to get dusty. But remember that the dust on the mind and soul is not so easily removed as the dust on our clothes.
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#1250440 - 08/16/09 07:50 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
J Cortese Offline
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"If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life."

You cannot be serious. Anyone who thinks that I'm about to bust my hump and spend four grand and countless hours out of a finite and rapidly passing lifetime merely to asset tribal membership in the right troop of baboons is out of their tiny little mind. If that's all I wanted out of life I could have slept with one of a number of rich men (and gotten another away from his wife if I'd been classless enough to try) one or two decades ago.

It never fails to amazes me how many people who claim to "love" music manage to contrive to actually like as little of it as possible. I suppose the smaller the pond, the bigger a fish one thinks one is.
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#1250446 - 08/16/09 08:03 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Originally Posted By: J Cortese
"If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life."

You cannot be serious. Anyone who thinks that I'm about to bust my hump and spend four grand and countless hours out of a finite and rapidly passing lifetime merely to asset tribal membership in the right troop of baboons is out of their tiny little mind. If that's all I wanted out of life I could have slept with one of a number of rich men (and gotten another away from his wife if I'd been classless enough to try) one or two decades ago.

It never fails to amazes me how many people who claim to "love" music manage to contrive to actually like as little of it as possible. I suppose the smaller the pond, the bigger a fish one thinks one is.


The point he is trying to make is simply that your taste in art has repercussions in other parts of your life.

Art is a form of education, and it's up to you whether you want to listen to a Brandenburg Concerto or to some Black dude going on endlessly about how his b___h needs it thrice daily. It's your choice, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with belonging to a certain group, but rather with what is and what isn't good for your soul. Music that elevates vs music that demoralizes is the distinction made here...
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#1251546 - 08/18/09 06:31 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
RobinL Offline
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Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
In principle I agree that there is good and bad music in basically every genre. However, the main difference between Classical and contemporary music remains complexity. Bach's music, for example, is mostly in counterpoint, which is far more intellectually stimulating than music that simply manipulates the listener emotionally with chord progressions. Even as a child (and perhaps particularly as a child), one benefits from complexity in art I think. You can learn to love Classical music later in life, but you will not benefit as much from it.

I prefer works of art that are equally fulfilling intellectually and emotionally, and most modern music falls short. Looking at the sheet music of a Top 40 hit single is almost always a disappointment, because then you realize how little substance there is to it musically...


Perhaps the sheet music is rather simple relative to classical music. But the same experiences can be attained using both - a "simple" song by one of my favourite "pop" singers can give me goosebumps when played live just like one of Brahms' symphonies. And for that matter, so can a good hip-hop. There's more to emotional depth than complexity and sophistication, and as for intellectualising - well I must admit I don't see enjoying listening to music as an intellectual enterprise (although I admit that analysing a piece of music can be intellectually rewarding).



Edited by RobinL (08/18/09 06:34 PM)

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#1251572 - 08/18/09 07:23 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Basia C.]
Terry. E Offline
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Originally Posted By: Basia C.
Good and bad muscic? All music is good music (within limits grin ). I don't find it very strange that we have different tastes in what sounds exiting and interesting.

Well, to spread interest for classical music I can see the following openings for example:

What classical music DO most people like? One answer is film music. Maybe it would be possible to build up a interest starting from that point of view?

Why do you like classical music? Could the same thing inspire others too? If so, don't hesitate to share.

I think grown-ups might have already desided that they dislike certain music styles, and might not want to change easily. If you want to influence it should be better to start with younger people.

It's probably a lot due to tradition. You like what your parents and other role models like. Why would you like classical if noone at home or among your friends like it? Solution to that would be to create more opportunities for people to listen to classical, and to meet others that do. Classical music getting media attention is probably very important too.
I agree. All types of music are good in their own way, it depends how you view it and what it does for you. Me I love listening to House Music and electronica, but I sitll have love and respect for Jazz and Classical. Not all music is defined as bad because you do not seem to recieve the message it portrays. BE OPEN MINDED MAN!

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#1251579 - 08/18/09 07:35 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: Martin C. Doege
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
"If, in your daily life, you wish to be regarded as a lady or a gentleman you are obliged to be careful as to the company you keep. It is the same in musical life."

You cannot be serious. Anyone who thinks that I'm about to bust my hump and spend four grand and countless hours out of a finite and rapidly passing lifetime merely to asset tribal membership in the right troop of baboons is out of their tiny little mind. If that's all I wanted out of life I could have slept with one of a number of rich men (and gotten another away from his wife if I'd been classless enough to try) one or two decades ago.

It never fails to amazes me how many people who claim to "love" music manage to contrive to actually like as little of it as possible. I suppose the smaller the pond, the bigger a fish one thinks one is.


The point he is trying to make is simply that your taste in art has repercussions in other parts of your life.

Art is a form of education, and it's up to you whether you want to listen to a Brandenburg Concerto or to some Black dude going on endlessly about how his b___h needs it thrice daily. It's your choice, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with belonging to a certain group, but rather with what is and what isn't good for your soul. Music that elevates vs music that demoralizes is the distinction made here...


And I'm sure that classical is exactly equivalent to music that elevates, and all contemporary music is degrading in all cases.

It may surprise you to know that I would personally equate a great deal of classical music with your "Black dude" (way to badmouth an entire subgroup of humanity there, too). The endless spate of "then the chick dies" in a lot of classical music and opera is, in fact, demoralizing, and oddly enough there isn't a single "Black dude" in sight.

For demoralization, I'd put Violetta dying of tuberculosis to hammer home the message that one strayed, a woman must die pretty far up compared to your average 80s power ballad.

And wasn't it Berlioz who wrote stalker letters to some English actress who jilted him, and then decided he'd murder her and her new husband and only backed out at the last moment? His music sure didn't seem to elevate HIM.

Then, there's Wagner.

Music is music, and if weeping while Butterfly romantically offs herself because some jerk babydaddy flew the coop automatically makes one more "moral" than listening to Christina Aguilera sing that you're beautiful no matter what anyone says ... that's a pretty loused up definition of "moral" by anyone's lights.

But I guess the jerk babydaddy wasn't a "Black dude," so it's okay.


Edited by J Cortese (08/18/09 07:55 PM)
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#1251598 - 08/18/09 08:01 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Whoops, wrong chick in Berlioz's crosshairs, there. It wasn't the actress that he wanted to murder, it was another woman who called off an engagement, and he decided he wanted to murder THREE people and not two. My bad. I can't imagine why she might have wanted to call it off.

The point being that classifying an entire vast gulf of music, all of it written by, played by, and listened to by humans in all their weird diversity, as "moral" or "immoral" depending on nothing more than the age, race, or social stratum of the people who are believed to listen to it is a crock.
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#1251958 - 08/19/09 01:16 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: J Cortese]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

And I'm sure that classical is exactly equivalent to music that elevates, and all contemporary music is degrading in all cases.

It may surprise you to know that I would personally equate a great deal of classical music with your "Black dude" (way to badmouth an entire subgroup of humanity there, too). The endless spate of "then the chick dies" in a lot of classical music and opera is, in fact, demoralizing, and oddly enough there isn't a single "Black dude" in sight.

For demoralization, I'd put Violetta dying of tuberculosis to hammer home the message that one strayed, a woman must die pretty far up compared to your average 80s power ballad.

And wasn't it Berlioz who wrote stalker letters to some English actress who jilted him, and then decided he'd murder her and her new husband and only backed out at the last moment? His music sure didn't seem to elevate HIM.

Then, there's Wagner.

Music is music, and if weeping while Butterfly romantically offs herself because some jerk babydaddy flew the coop automatically makes one more "moral" than listening to Christina Aguilera sing that you're beautiful no matter what anyone says ... that's a pretty loused up definition of "moral" by anyone's lights.

But I guess the jerk babydaddy wasn't a "Black dude," so it's okay.


That's why I specifically used Bach as an example. Mahler, Liszt, Wagner, Bartok, Schoenberg etc. are sometimes depressing, and sometimes simply musically worthless, so there is definitely a large amount of bad Classical music. Ragtime is almost considered Classical now, so of course Hofmann's rant against ragtime should not be read in the literal sense. At the same time, there is wonderful contemporary music, and especially film scores often rely on liberal "inspiration" from the better 19th century symphonic composers like Brahms.

But the fact remains, the most truly uplifting (and by that I don't mean superficial kitsch as in Pop songs) music is Classical. Nothing contemporary compares. And if you listen more to good Classical music, then Pop, Rock, etc. suddenly seem pretty boring and one-dimensional by comparison. The Happy Meal is less appetizing when you can dine at the French Laundry every night.

And as for the intellectual content of music, of course this is not something one consciously does during listening, unless the music is badly made. For example, with a lot of Beethoven piano music I cannot help but analyze it, because it's so easy to see how it's put together, but e.g. something by Chopin always appears so seamless that I wouldn't even know how to analyze it if I had to. But the subconscious picks up a lot more than the conscious, and I think it grasps the complexity quite well.

Quote:
It may surprise you to know that I would personally equate a great deal of classical music with your "Black dude" (way to badmouth an entire subgroup of humanity there, too). The endless spate of "then the chick dies" in a lot of classical music and opera is, in fact, demoralizing, and oddly enough there isn't a single "Black dude" in sight.


Drama is when everyone dies at the end, comedy is when everyone ends up marrying. Or at least that's what I remember from school. smile

Hollywood has created this weird mix of comedy and drama, where at the last minute everything works out for no particular reason. And I think that has contributed in a big way to the perception that real drama is dark and gloomy. It depends on how you look at it. It seems to me that in drama, people always die because of their own mistakes, whether it's Hamlet or Violetta. So in that sense it's very moral. Good drama is moral because it teaches you that your actions have consequences, whereas most present-day music tells you that lots of sex, violence, and crime are OK, which by definition makes it immoral.
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#1252067 - 08/19/09 04:45 PM Re: Teenagers and classical music [Re: Martin C. Doege]
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I looked up the word "classical" in the dictionary. The word is defined (as pertaining to music) as "music of the late 18th and 19th century which is characterized by an emphasis on balance, clarity and moderation."

As for the word "classic," it is defined as that which is held up as the standard of excellence; of recognized value, traditional and enduring."

That's all I have to say because nothing more is needed.

Kathleen
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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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