Sorry if the question has been asked before. I have done a lot of search but can not find answer to my specific concern.

I have a 7 year old son who has been taking piano lesson under a private teacher for almost a year. He uses a Roland HP203 digital piano since the start. His progress is very good, so far he has just finished level 3 and begun on level 4. I found he obtained absolute pitch at month 2 of his study, and his sight reading ability is probably higher than his technique level.

However my concern is his weak fingers. Since he has very good sight reading, he has the tendency to jump ahead of his current level, sometime way ahead. He seems to put a lot attention to speed but really struggle with play forte, because his fingers are weak. His teacher thought one of the reasons might be that the keyboard of a digital piano is too light compare to a upright acoustic.

I have been wondering which way is better for a child pianist to gain strength in his fingers, by natural growth or by playing with a heavy keyboard. I am open to the idea of replacing his digital piano to an acoustic one, but my son has been having so much fun with the digital and he does not want to have it replaced by an acoustic.

I respect his teacher's opinion very much, but I would like to hear more from other teachers on the forum regarding digital piano's negative effects on finger power. Your comments and advice will be greatly appreciated.

If your son is progressing nicely. as you said, I would highly recommend a good acoustic piano. Personally I don't think you can really learn a good touch on a digital piano. He can still use the digital for fun .

rada

Thanks, rada. That is exactly what I want to hear about. I will begin to look for an acoustic piano immediately.

Do you have any recommendation on which piano to choose? We do not have room for a grand, so it probably has to be a upright. We only have one child, so affordability is less a concern, as long as it won't break our bank account.

Thanks again,
Cinstance

Hi cinstance,

I'm not a teacher, but I did originally learn on an upright as a kid and now practice on a digital piano (Casio Privia PX310 - which has a heavy touchweight) and take lessons on a grand piano.

I think your teacher has a valid suggestion, but he is not necessarily looking at all the options that you have with your Roland, and he may be using the wrong explanation of his reasons for getting a new piano.

First, suggestions to try: See if you have a way to change the sensitivity of your DP. Possibly try a light setting and then have your son try to play as loud as he can. Getting used to having to play harder on the DP should help him produce forte on the acoustic. Conversely, you can make the touch heavier and have him learn how to control light sounds. These settings don't change the weight of the keyboard, they just make it respond differently - light generally makes you press harder to get the loudest shouds and heavy make you have more control over the softest.

Now my reasons for moving to an acoustic would be the ability to create and control different tone colors with an acoustic and also the pedals. Most digital pianos that I have tried have a pedal that is no where near as controllable as an acoustics. I would agree with these reasons, but the weight on a digital should be fine for developing the strength needed for playing.

Rich

you are heading in the right direction. Take your time in choosing a great practice upright piano. YOu will want a quality piano with a professional (not super cheap, budgetminded action).

Quality pays. i would look at Yamahas, Baldwins, Kawais, Petrofs, and Charles Walters (my particular favorite) (and i'm sure other people will have suggestions.

the Piano Forum will help you very much. You ought to be Larry Fine's The Piano Book to educate yourself.

and please.. stay in touch. Many of us love to help people buy the perfect piano.

if you think your boy will stick with piano, you might consider a grand purchase one day. ... something to keep in mind when you establish a relationship with a seller (assuming you buy new).

I thought the Roland 203 has weighted keys, compared to other digitals or keyboards that have only partially weighted ones. Unless you purchase a really good acoustic (my personal preference is Yamaha or Kawai), many pianos have an action that isn't much better than a digital, especially older spinets. I grew up with such a piano and would have been better off with a keyboard (since my piano had trouble staying in tune as well).

Wow. I am really overwhelmed by the responses. I am typing this almost with tears in my eye.

I want to say thanks again for all your comments.

To Rich. The digital piano we have do have sensitivity control, currently it is set at the second heaviest touch (as suggested by his teacher). I will try tuning down it so that he can play forte more easily as we searching for an acoustic. Your comments regarding the tone colors control and pedal also is of tremendous help. Thanks a lot.

To apple. Thanks for the suggestion on piano purchasing. I have just ordered Larry's book. I do hope music can play a role in my son's life. We do have one very nice piano dealer nearby and I will keep in mind your suggestion regarding the relationship with them.

To dumdumdiddle. Thanks for sharing your own experience regarding digital and acoustic. I will keep your suggestion in mind.

Cinstance

I grew up with classical piano lessons
and acoustic pianos only--an old
upright at home, and uprights and
grands in the teachers' studios and
at recitals--since there were no
digital pianos back then. I quit
in high school and didn't play a note
for 20 yrs.

When I restarted as an adult, I
bought an expensive acoustic upright.
A similar model today would be in
the ~$20,000 price range, although
when I bought it, it was less than
$6000. That upright is now in storage,
because I find digitals to be much
more practical for everyday playing.

We are now 20 yrs. into the Digital
Piano Age, and yet that are still
many piano teachers who: have never
played a digital, know nothing about
them and don't care to learn anything
about them, hate the whole idea
of digital pianos, will not take
students with them, and will discriminate
against students who have them.
But digitals now are all but
equivalent to acoustic pianos.
One forum member recently decided
to get a $6000 acoustic upright to
learn on, but for that price you
could get something like the Roland
V Piano, essentially a concert grand.
Yet there are teachers who would
refuse to take a student with
a V Piano, which is just disgraceful,
in my opinion.

Moreover, the basic idea behind digital
pianos is not at all new. They
are much like the old silent keyboards
that first appeared in the late
1890's. A silent keyboard is similar
to a digital piano with the power turned
off. Silent keyboards enabled
a pianist to play anytime and
anywhere and not disturb people.
And more importantly they allowed
a pianist to save his ears and
nerves from the cacophony that
is produced by an acoustic piano.
An acoustic piano can be heard a
block away, and that's just too
loud for many people to sit in
front of and play. Silent keyboards
used to be very popular with concert
pianists in the 1930's, and Claudio
Arrau used one all his life.

Your son's teacher has apparently
never played a digital and knows
nothing about them. And of course
his fingers are going to be weak.
He's only 7.

Horowitzian -

This is totally off-topic, and shows my complete (or almost) ignorance of computer tech, but where do you get your emoticons? They're adorable!

Joan

I am in a similar situation as your child. I have a HP-203 and had problems for the better part of a year to play properly on my teacher's almost-new Boston grand which has a very heavy action. I practiced on the Heavy-1 setting as well.

For me, the solution was hooking up a computer with Pianoteq installed on it and tweaking the velocity curve so the sound "opens up" at a much heavier touch than the Roland sounds (does that make sense? It's not about volume, but rather the amount of brilliance in the sound produced at given strike strength).

Within 2 weeks of practicing with Pianoteq, almost all my issues of playing on the heavy-action grand went away and I now feel comfortable I am not harming my technique in the long run with my Digital.

That might be an alternative for you... But if you have the cash to spend for a great acoustic, do that of course!

I think your teacher is full of it.

I play a 9 yr old Roland HP237Re - and after years of growing up playing acoustic pianos have no problems whatsoever with its touch. I think its a WAAAY better piano than any acoustic I would be able to afford.

Your 7yr old probably just needs to grow a little stronger thats all!

Hi Joan,

I get a lot of them from Runemaster Studios. The 'dead horse' I just found somewhere and saved a link to it. To get the ones integrated into the forum, use these codes and ASCII emotes:





Additionally, in the Full Reply Screen, there is a list of them on the top left of the text box that's labeled with a wee smiley face.

Cheers!

Personally, I really wouldn't recommend going for the 'heavy' touch. It doesn't affect the action in any sense. It just means that you end up thumping a light action hard. That doesn't provide any better preparation for a heavy action. If anything, I'd simply practise loud, when doing some of the the technical work (as most pianists do anyway, on real pianos). Get used to the combination of physical effort coupled with a thin, dead sound and you might end up thumping real pianos out of habit. At least if you hear a loud sound, when thumping a key, you're not going to be inclined to think of that as the normal way to play.

No digital piano I know of actually offers adjustable keyweight. Also, my clp 370 simply cannot absorb true FF playing. Even when I feel I'm 'easing' through a finger, there's an almighty thud. The shockwave is far greater, compared to real pianos- which tend to absorb the energy smoothly.

I mentioned this in more detail in a post on a similar topic, very recently. I forget the topic. When you play loud, real pianos absorb the impact. This is where my CLP really shows its limitations. Once you go to a serious FFF, you barely feel any resistance at all (until you crack against the keybed). Forget the sense of resistance when you play soft. The more you push into a real piano, the more it pushes back. I've never played a DP that even approaches a good upright, nevermind a heavy-actioned grand. I'm surprised they haven't put more effort into the springs.

Gyro- if you have yet to experience the limits of your digital, have you ever wondered whether you're staying too far within your comfort range? As soon as you start looking for contrasts and dynamic range, the limitations immediately obvious. I saw a film of Katsaris playing an AvantGrand. They must have paid him bloody well, because within two or three notes it was obvious that it was merely a very expensive keyboard. I'm stunned that anyone would waste their money on such a heap of crap, when you could by a real 'hybrid' (which the Avant certainly is not) upright for vastly cheaper.

Horowitzian -

Thanks so much. I'll check it out. The dead horse really made me laugh!

Joan

You'll find it even funnier once you get acquainted with Gyro's idiosyncrasies.

Nyiregyhazi,

I'm actually recommending the opposite approach. Use a light touch setting for developing control of loud passages and a heavy touch setting for developing control of soft passages. In other words, work in the region of the curve where it is the steepest and you need to develop the most control If you can play forte evenly on a light setting, then you have very good control over the dynamics. Also if you play piano evenly on a heavy setting then again you have control over the dynamics in that region.

You are right that you cannot change the actual touch weight.

Also, I would say that in my experience weighted pianos do not use springs, at least my Casio does not. It works via a hammer like mechanism and gravity.

Rich

Having repaired the same model as mine I can tell you that it is counter-weighted. My Yamaha P60 has a metal bar at the furthest end of each key. Knowing that does help to play it in a small way.

We started my daughter on an unweighted keyboard. she made progress, but slowly.

Then I bought a decent weighted keyboard Yamaha, similar to your Roland. Her progress took off. This piano was easily as good as the teacher's acoustic.

I would really advise waiting. Seven is too young to really need the acoustic. Yes, at some point a conservatory bound solo classical piano student is going to need one. But I suspect that point is several years away. And the percentage of piano students that end up in that category is small.

An out of tune acoustic may wreak havok with the absolute pitch development as well. Acoustics need regular tuning AND maintenance, and are sensitive to weather changes.

It is possible to practice loud and soft playing by setting the master volume (not the touch) in the opposite direction, by the way.

Yeah, I think the OP was the one who said he'd been recommended to keep it on the heavy touch for normal playing. I'd be really careful about using that setting very much. I can certainly see your point on sometimes using the light touch as a practise method for control of loud passages. Sounds like very good idea for honing sensitivity, but I don't quite follow the other way around though. Surely playing on the heavy setting would simply increase the margin for error- as well as possibly encouraging thumping? I don't think that having to hit a really light action hard, simply to bring any sound out, is terribly conducive towards added sensitivty. Couple the fact that, when you hit them, DPs don't give you the warning of a hideously ugly tone with the fact that it may not even seem to be loud and it could end up being a recipe for bad technique. I think the fingers are best worked by moving a decent weight, not by having to pound something light. At least if you keep on the regular setting, you get the feedback of noisy sounds, to remind you that this is just one way of practising and not a normal way to play. If you get used to hearing quiet sounds in response to forceful blows, it could easily become ingrained.

I don't know the fine workings on what's inside my Yamaha but what I can say for definite is that I do not feeling I'm imparting energy into anything much but the moment where the key stops. I barely feel any resistance at all in loud playing- whether we're talking about a slow weighted motion from contact, or falling into the keys from a height. Whatever's going on in there, as soon as you play loud, the action simply does not push back at you in the way a piano does.

I have been in trouble here before for my opinions of digital pianos.

It is one thing to say a student uses a digital piano because they can’t afford an acoustic or have room for one but I am hearing that you are asking which is better. Acoustic or digital. You came for advice and my advice would be to avoid a digital.

I am not one of those teachers who refuses to learn anything about digital pianos. I have played them extensively. There is a place for digital pianos. In my church enabling a sound man to balance other instruments and voices is a benefit and can only be done on a digital. As a teacher however, I insists on a piano. The touch is different- Not just how it feels but how the sound responds to the touch.

Consider that you are not actually making a tone on a digital piano. . When you play that digital piano, you are playing a RECORDING of at piano tone through a speaker. When you play a chord you are not getting a true harmony in terms of sound waves and physics. It is not true harmony.

I might change my mind if I ever see a concert performance played on a digital piano. Get an acoustic.

A sound man can easily mic a piano and put it into the mix with other things. I had a church gig where we used an acoustic all the time.

Agreed!

I agree that it can be done. I always prefer the real piano and a good sound man. But pianos are harder to find in churches. There is also argument that pianos have to be tuned but the Kurweil at church has had some costly repairs. Nothing more frustrating than right before a sevice the keyboard stops working- or starts doing CRAZY things.

As any technology, I do not believe a digital Piano holds its monatary value long.

Mrs. A, I don't believe you when you
say you've played digitals "extensively."
Trying one out in a store--with a
mind set completely against it--is
not playing a digital "extensively."
If you knew anything about digitals,
you couldn't say the things you did,
because they are more than capable
of taking the place of an acoustic piano.
Certainly a big-time classical
concert could be played on a state of
the art digital today. All that's
preventing it is people in the
piano establishement like you,
who won't have anything to do with digitals.

I've been playing digitals extensively
since 1989, hard playing of the most
difficult classical repertoire, like
the Chopin op. 14 Concert Rondo,
for example. So I know what they
are capable of. I suppose you
would consider silent keyboards--
which you know nothing about--
as something to avoid too, even
though Arrau used one all his life.

Digital pianos have literally been my
salvation as a pianist, and have
enbled me to progress from a
run of the mill terminal advanced-intermediate player to
an advanced-intermediate player
who can tackle the most difficult
concert repertoire.

And I don't care if you play a digital
at church. Your attitude is so
set against them that you must regard
that time on the church digital
with total disgust, and so you can't see
all the benefits digitals
can offer.

I would also prefer that my students have an acoustic piano. However, the reality is that most students have pretty cr***y pianos. They get them for $500 in the newspaper, Craigslist, from Grandma, at yard sales, even off the side of the road for free (as one of my students bragged about... ughh:( ). How many teachers actually know what kind of piano their students practice on at home?

I gave a makeup lesson to a student and went to his home, as it was close to mine. I was horrified at their piano. It sounded like something in a saloon, 3 notes didn't even play... but they loved it because of the ornate woodwork, go figure.

The argument that 'acoustic is always better because it's a REAL piano' doesn't fly, in my opinion. I would rather students begin on a digital (or even a keyboard, for that matter) than a horrible acoustic. There are teachers who will say, "but of course, when I say acoustic piano I mean a GOOD piano", but the likelihood that ALL of our piano students own a quality acoustic piano is slim to none. Good pianos don't cost the same as digitals; they cost more. Yes, there are wonderful gems-of-a-deal to be found here and there, but they are rare.

Gyro, it sounds like you have the same bias toward acoustic pianos that you mistakenly assume others have toward digitals. Who else would describe the sound of an acoustic piano as "cacophony" from which one's ears and nerves must be shielded?

I'd like someone to offer an explanation of how and why a "silent piano" would be in any way useful. Without auditory feedback, how would one know one is playing wrong notes or with suitable dynamics and articulation? It makes as much sense as playing air piano.

Steven

Horowitzian -

Thanks again. And I know what you mean. . .

Joan

Them's some mighty fancy magic powers you got there that let you make such extreme, dogmatic assertions about an instrument you've never played or even seen. What's your next trick, stock market predictions based on hearing an mp3 of the opening bell?