Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#1251302 - 08/18/09 11:31 AM Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused...
SeilerFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 746
Ok, I know about the Piano Technicians Guild (ptg.org). Great organization.

I once asked a technician if he was a registered technician, and he replied: yes. Then, however, I couldn't find his name on ptg.org in the registered member directory. Are there other forms of reliable registration that certify that a technician has been rigorously tested to certain standards and that he might have referred to?

Then, what does the term "college-certified" mean? Did someone study piano technicianship at the college level? Or does this rather mean that such person has been approved to work on a college's instruments by such college?

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#1251343 - 08/18/09 12:47 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: SeilerFan]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Registered with whom? Your question wasn't specific enough to get the information you wanted!

Piano technicians in the US are unregulated - there is no official agency to authenticate a "stamp of approval" or determine that any technician works at any skill level on a day to day basis.

Word of mouth referrals are your best indication of the quality of work from any tech...

Ron Koval
Chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#1251380 - 08/18/09 02:00 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: RonTuner]
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1292
Loc: North Carolina
RonTuner wrote:
Registered with whom? Your question wasn't specific enough to get the information you wanted!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I think you can do better than this RonT. SeilerFan's question is crystal clear for anyone WANTING to answer the question!!!

There is an organization called the Master Piano Technicians...I forget the actual name. But you pay your dues and get a really official looking certificate. That's it!!! No testing required. As long as you pay your dues you can call yourself a "master" piano technician. Beware of these "masters" of the craft in most cases.

SeilerFan, you obviously have some knowledge of the Piano Technicians Guild. The PTG is the one and only organization in the USA, that has established standards in order to be classified as a Registered Piano Technician. Here in our "beloved" Piano Techncians Forum, many discount the need for testing and even PTG membership. As RonT states the profession of piano technology is unregulated. So there is no requirement for membership in anything.

However, the PTG has established a set of rigorous tuning and techncial exams for those who wish to qualify at the RPT level. I do not use the word rigorous loosely, even though I am sure the term will set more than one of my Fellow Forumites aflame. It always does.

The bottom line is the one and only organization in the USA that has established a standard for "registered" status, is the PTG.
_________________________
-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician

Top
#1251551 - 08/18/09 06:51 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Ron Alexander]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3222
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Recently, there was some guy with a website who apparently though pretty highly of himself and highly enough of "RPT" and the word, "Registered" to use it on his website but didn't think highly enough of his skills or the tuning profession to join PTG or take the exams. He was a "Registered Piano Tuner". He was "registered" alright, a registered alumnus of some college, so he thought he had the right to try to fool the public and draw search engines to his website by using the acronym and the word.

He did not have that right. Legal action was brought against him and he was forced to remove the ambiguous language. He was also a "Master" because he belonged to the organization, Mater Piano Technicians of America which as no testing and issues no certifications or credentials of any kind. MPTA also made him remove the word, "master" and his affiliation with that organization.

PTG also does not "certify" anyone to be able to do anything. It does however provide the credential and the right to use RPT and what the letters stand for to individuals who are members and who have passed its exams. That right is protected by Federal law. Anyone who infringes upon it is subject to legal action.

Ron is right, the piano tuning profession is unregulated. Anyone can call themselves anything they want and can claim anything they want in their advertising except with regards to RPT.

People who have graduated from a piano tuning school receive a certificate but that also does not mean that the school certifies that the individual is capable of anything at all, it only acknowledges that the individual attended the school and completed the course. This does not mean that there are not highly skilled people who took that course and have gone on to become excellent technicians. There are such people. They may or may not use the word "certified" in their advertising.

It boils down to one simple fact: only RPT's have demonstrated that they have met PTG's standards and are bound by a code of ethics. Anyone else can claim anything they want and it may or may not be true.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1251576 - 08/18/09 07:32 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


It boils down to one simple fact: only RPT's have demonstrated that they have met PTG's standards and are bound by a code of ethics. Anyone else can claim anything they want and it may or may not be true.



That's quite true. And, no problem from me here Ron...PTG DOES set rigorous and noble standards... There is actually much to celebrate between the PTG members and her non-member brothers and sisters in the trades, by way of mutual interests and courtesy back and forth. Particularily where those non-members attempt to continue learning, and to stay on track with the latest in the trade.

Just like piano teachers, gymnastic instructors, and musicians everywhere, piano tuners must ultimately rely upon their reputations and marketing to stay in business. I've run into the word "certified" a few times in use here in SW Michigan...it can mean anything, as has been stated above. But, in Michigan it is illegal to use any words or titles or ititials that imply a certification or registration or a credential without actually possessing that certification etc...But, you will see it none the less...

Caveat Emptor...

RPD




_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

Top
#1251586 - 08/18/09 07:43 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: RPD]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
People who have graduated from a piano tuning school receive a certificate but that also does not mean that the school certifies that the individual is capable of anything at all, it only acknowledges that the individual attended the school and completed the course.

And passed the tests given there in order to graduate.

With coursework costing in the thousands of dollars, as well as other living expenses.

And having hands-on training.

And that they applied great effort, patience, and faith.

And received tutelage from very fine instructors.

And that they cared enough to leave their homes and actually live there. Some of the students I saw endured great hardship... separation from spouses/families, poverty, etc.

And gamble their futures first by attending, and then daring to start their own businesses, sometimes from nothing... Without the protections and benefits given to employees.

So... Is this all meaningless?


Edited by daniokeeper (08/18/09 08:39 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1251658 - 08/18/09 09:41 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: daniokeeper]
SeilerFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 746
Thanks for your perspective, guys...

Top
#1251684 - 08/18/09 10:46 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3222
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
People who have graduated from a piano tuning school receive a certificate but that also does not mean that the school certifies that the individual is capable of anything at all, it only acknowledges that the individual attended the school and completed the course.

And passed the tests given there in order to graduate.

With coursework costing in the thousands of dollars, as well as other living expenses.

And having hands-on training.

And that they applied great effort, patience, and faith.

And received tutelage from very fine instructors.

And that they cared enough to leave their homes and actually live there. Some of the students I saw endured great hardship... separation from spouses/families, poverty, etc.

And gamble their futures first by attending, and then daring to start their own businesses, sometimes from nothing... Without the protections and benefits given to employees.

So... Is this all meaningless?


No, it is certainly not meaningless. Neither is RPT as some people on this forum have outright stated in the past. The point is that not all such graduates could pass the PTG exams although certainly many could if they chose to attempt them. Some such graduates have attempted the RPT exams but failed on the first or first few attempts but ultimately succeeded.

I know one such person locally who attended a fine school and did all that you mentioned. He joined PTG briefly but failed the written exam. When given a pre-screening for the tuning exam, he failed that too. From what I know of his skills and admittedly he does have some knowledge and skills, he could not pass the PTG technical exam either. But he has a certificate from a well known school. In his mind, he is "certified" and advertises himself that way. With the use of an ETD, he can actually tune a piano quite well. So, I don't consider him or his advertising to be fraudulent or even unethical but he is not and RPT and would have to improve his set of knowledge and skills in all areas before he could qualify.

Then, there are those who took a cheap correspondence course or a tuning course at a summer camp. They received a certificate, so they claim to be certified. There may be those who signed up for a Yamaha session as one poster on another forum recounted but never showed up and still received a certificate.

So, as unfortunate as it may be for those who went to a good school, learned and developed fine skills and passed the school's exams, it is still possible and apparently it happens rather commonly that people virtually bereft of any standards whatsoever can make the same claim, "certified" and even worse, "master".

They can do it legally. They can call themselves anything they want and they can claim anything they want. Even if there is some kind of law against making such a false or inflated claim, it would likely be a civil matter for which one individual would have to sue another. Even such agencies as the Better Business Bureau or the Office of Consumer Protection can do little more than write a letter.

On the other hand, there is only one way to earn and use the title, RPT. There is an obvious value in that. Infringement is a Federal crime, PTG vigorously pursues it and always wins enforcement.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1251710 - 08/18/09 11:31 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2373
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


....Ron is right, the piano tuning profession is unregulated. Anyone can call themselves anything they want and can claim anything they want in their advertising except with regards to RPT....



This statement is somewhat misleading and implies that only the PTG watchdogs advertising of false credentials or false membership. Almost any organization that takes dues from its members will go after fraudulent non-paying "posers"... even the Master Piano Technicians of America (if you didn't cough up the 25$ to join). Schools and colleges can be contacted by the public to verify someone claiming or advertising to be a graduate, holder of a diploma, title or certificate of program completion, and often are. Any institution or organization of merit is usually adamant about protecting their integrity and their financial income the same as the PTG.
Some of the piano technician schools that have operated out of colleges or universities incorporate the studies into a complete curriculum that also meets the governing Ministry of Education requirements, often with 2-3 year F/T courses that must include general studies in communications, English, math, physics, science of sound, piano history/development, business ethics, accounting, woodworking/cabinet making/tool making and customer relations. Along with being tested in mechanical aptitude, full aural tuning exams, tested technical proficiency at repairs, regulating and refurbishment, they also train students to do full restoration work on the pianos' innards, including sound board/pin block replacement. The training is very "hands on" and pianos from the paying public are worked on to help subsidize the courses often. They have also prepared students to step into a piano manufacturing setting fully prepared for what awaits them by teaching relevant skills such as winding bass strings, building jigs and fixtures to speed operations and the instruction in safe use of larger power tools.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#1251714 - 08/18/09 11:46 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3222
Loc: Madison, WI USA
But everyone else is "certified" too.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1251722 - 08/18/09 11:55 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
As long as we're sharing anectodal stories...

There's a local tech - recently passed and earned his RPT. As far as I can tell on followups doesn't tune equal temperament. No, it's not a well temperament (I'm more than familiar with how to check that); more a random temperament. He CAN tune to the test; for some reason he chooses NOT to tune to that level for everyday work.

It's like those "bad" teachers we keep hearing about... they can pull it together while the administration is looking, but left to their own devices...

RPT means a tech pulled it together to pass 3 tests - nothing more, nothing less.

Ron Koval
Chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#1251730 - 08/19/09 12:13 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
If someone is claiming PTG RPT status falsely, they SHOULD be gone after. If I was on the jury, I'd convict. Fair is fair.

I recently celebrated my 30th anniversary as a tuner. In all those years, I have never once claimed membership in the PTG. If someone wants an RPT and only an RPT, I don't argue. If that's their mindset, I'll always be "suspect" regardless of what I do if they hire me. I thank them for their interest and go on about my life. When asked about my background as a tuner, I simply tell folks that I attended a tuning school in the late 70's, the sort of things I studied, the types of jobs I've done, and the number of years in business. Period.

Btw, I was just checking out the MPT site. They have some pretty illustrious names among their membership.


Edited by daniokeeper (08/19/09 12:21 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1251737 - 08/19/09 12:42 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: RonTuner]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1484
Loc: Old Hangtown California
One thing that I was asked by the examiner when I passed the RPT tuning exam was: would you be happy enough with this tuning if it were done on a clients piano? And would you charge them for it? It was pointed out to me that passing the exam with a score of 100% could easily yield a very noticable uneven temperament.
The tolerence is 1 cent in the midrange so if F3 were .9 cents sharp and F#3 were .9 cents flat the score would be 100% but what would the intervals associated with these notes sound like?
The message was that passing the exam is a significant event but it is also one of many highlights on the long road of skill developement in regard to tuning. Gitting skill level to the point that you can pass the exam is not to be underestimated but the exam is not the end point, it is a minimum required skill level for RPT.
To be tested by your peers in such a manner is a humbling and very rewarding learning experience that no tuner should shy away from. Not everyone is comfortable with demonstrating their skills to a professional for scrutiny. This has always struck my curiousity.
PTG is not separate from the professional piano technician. It is the professional trying to promote the professional. We have standards for minimum skills as well as ethics and more - continuing education included.
It is the best place to start in a search for a tech.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

Top
#1251810 - 08/19/09 08:37 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Gene Nelson]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
We had just one such thing happen here. A person had taken and passed the well known course in piano technology. They then, advertised as being an RPT. When confronted about this ad in the yellow pages, their answer was that they had taken this course from so and so and had no doubt in their mind that they could now pass as an RPT so they placed an ad into the phone book. Well, this forced them to make 2 options. Either turn off the phone for false advertising or take the tests and pass them. No problem this person said. They took all of the required tests and failed miserably forcing them to disconnect their phone. Because of THEIR inadequacies and because of their mistake of placing that ad and then failing, they had such a bitter taste in their mouth after failing that they refused to have anything to do with the PTG. That was nobody's fault but their own. That person is still in business. I follow up after them on a very regular basis and cannot believe the workmanship that I encounter which is still horrible.

I used to have a dentist who also obviously passed his testing. He did root canals, crowns and other things. There was never even one time where I was not in total misery when he worked on my teeth for even fillings. He wasn't giving me enough Novocaine or was giving it to me in the incorrect places. When I mentioned the pain I was still in, he would it seems, pretend to give me a shot but I felt no difference. When doing root canals, he resorted to giving me a shot directly down into the center of my tooth directly into the root of my tooth in order to stop the pain. Can you imagine how much THAT HURT? It wasn't until I changed dentists that I no longer had any pain at all.

My point, is that this dentist passed his exams. But IMO, this most certainly didn't make him a good, honest, ethical or moral dentist. All this did was give him a certificate to hang on his wall.

How many other horror stories do we hear and read about continually with doctors and dentists or other fields? And they are forced to take exams in order to practice.

In our field, it is totally voluntary. 100 % voluntary. It tells me something if one of us is willing to put our necks on the line to take and pass these exams. Nobody has any real clue as to what is actually involved in these exams until they actually take them. Just ask some of us who have taken and given them. They are much harder than one might assume.

In my opinion, it is better to have some sort of credential behind your name, than none at all. Whether that be North Bennett School or another school or being an RPT. At least these people have taken something and then the PTG puts on seminars and conventions. Do these schools also do something similar or are you now on your own from this point forward?

Now, on the other hand, regardless of a persons credentials, what they choose to do with those credentials after that is their business but if they are caught being unethical or continually doing shoddy workmanship after being an RPT, at least we then have the option of giving them the boot.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1251824 - 08/19/09 09:21 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Gene Nelson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3222
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Gene, I completely agree with the sentiment but in fact, if you have a +0.9 opposing a -0.9, and there are a few other values well within tolerance but not exactly the same as the master you will not get a 100, you will get a 98.

The reason is because of the pitch correction number. I tried this over 20 years ago. I tried to design a well temperament that would still "score" a 100 on the tuning exam. It is virtually impossible. I had each pitch within tolerance but the pitch correction feature of the exam will inevitably shift at least one note out of tolerance. Aural verification will prove the "error".

Now, Ron's post is another matter. It is actually quite rare that anyone scores a perfect 100 in temperament on the tuning exam. I've observed the work of many, many tuners over the years. Nearly anyone's temperament whether tuned aurally or with an ETD could be improved. That's what master tuning committees do when they spend 30-45 minutes on a temperament that was already as good as the initial tuner could get it. That initial tuner is usually the one who conducts the exam and is generally considered to be among the best there is. ET has a very precarious balance to it. In the end, absolute perfection of it is an infinitely unattainable goal. Whether slight imperfections really matter or not is another question.

Now, both Joe and Ron have chosen not to take the exams (Joe also not to join PTG). That is their prerogative to do so. But you see, they are both often plagued with the question and are forced to answer it on occasion and then explain why not, etc.

I believe I know who Ron is talking about. Yes, he struggled to get the tuning exam passed. It took four attempts. He struggled as an immigrant to this country, facing a language barrier and a lot of rejection and discrimination against him. For him, RPT was a personal goal and he finally succeeded. That does not mean he is a top notch technician and it doesn't mean that he is better than either Ron or Joe. But he achieved the most important personal goal in his life up to now and his life is now better for it. With the kind of ambition he has, it is not likely that his knowledge and skills will deteriorate and digress; he will continue to improve and grow more successful in business.

I should also add that the ET via Marpurg idea I have for accomplishing the goal of passing the tuning exam is an example of what Gene pointed out. It is by definition, not perfect. When I have tuned it and when a student of mine tuned it and got a perfect score, there were still audible if however slight errors but the score was perfect.

You can be an RPT if you score 100 on all exams in every column (which nobody ever has) and you can be an RPT if you score 80 on every exam in every column. You can also be a "certified" technician such as Joe and Emmery, having gone to a good school and having learned and developed great skills certainly sufficient to become an RPT passing all exams in all columns with very high scores and possessing knowledge and skills that aren't even tested. You can also be a "certified" or "master" technician that can't pass any of the PTG exams at all.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1251834 - 08/19/09 09:45 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
And you can become “Accredited” by the BBB:

http://www.bbb.org/us/Business-Accreditation/
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1251864 - 08/19/09 10:53 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: UnrightTooner]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Bill & Jerry,

Thank you for the kind words.

Just a few things, though.

I'm not plagued by questions about the PTG. I'm fairly well established by now, so it seldom comes up. If someone is more comfortable with an RPT, by all means hire one. I occasionally will have a customer that will purchase a new piano from a dealer I'm not associated with. I'll advise them that, "If possible, try to get along with that dealer's tuner at least during the warranty period. But, if you just cannot get along, you can still call me." Oddly enough, when I quit trying so hard to"prove myself", things improved. Sporting a few gray hairs didn't hurt, either.

Also, I don't claim to be certified. Just what I posted above. Nothing more; Nothing less.

As for being on my own, that's fair. But, you get out of things what you put into them. In the old days, I was poring over musty old books by W.B White and others, trying to learn anything new I could, or anything I missed. If there was a technical issue on a new piano on which I was in doubt, I wasn't too proud to just phone the manufacturer and speak to their tech. I'd ask questions when placing orders with piano supply houses. So, I kept learning, though not formally. Today, we have the internet. There's great opportunity for advancing one's knowledge that way. It really come down to applying one's self.

I believe that it is true that the clientele creates the tuner they want. If a tech receives sufficient requests for voicing, that tech will learn how to voice. If the tuner is a great voicer, but there is no demand, those skills will atrophy. But, he'll concentrate on those things that the clientele do want him to do. He'll learn to think like them to help them achieve their own goals.

It's an old story... You go to school to learn 'whatever'. But, the real education happens after graduation... when you find out what's actually demanded of you.





Edited by daniokeeper (08/19/09 11:12 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1251867 - 08/19/09 10:58 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2373
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Some of the F/T Schools of piano technician/technology do have a "brother/sisterhood" of sorts that continues for graduates along with the often life-time friendships that build. Teachers and instructors will continue to help graduates with problems and alumni are invited to attend seminars, guest lectures and arranged dealer/tech classes. Of course, fees are sometimes involved but these costs are offset by the fact that there are no yearly dues to be an alumni of the school, it comes with the diploma. School text resources and library rights are also extended to alumni if they choose to research something in the future. If RPT's and PTG members wonder why graduates from these schools often do not pursue the additional credentials the PTG can offer(as is so often asked), they should remember that these same graduates often wonder why many of the PTG members and RPT's won't attend these schools for the additional credentials and hands on skills that they offer. Costs for both are about the same in the long run.
Interestingly enough, on the few occasions I have been asked about my training, the people seemed more interested in how I learned and the depth of that learning, rather than who the issuing body for the credentials were in a still unregulated field.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#1251880 - 08/19/09 11:14 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: daniokeeper]
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1292
Loc: North Carolina
Of course, formal schooling at any level, degrees, diplomas, certificates, etc, mean something. In fact they mean quite a lot. They are the basis upon which, what I will call "whole life" education is built. Hands on experience counts for a lot too. In too many instances hands on experience and training under a well qualified mentor is not given enough credence.

I can count on two or three fingers, the number of times I have been asked if I am a member of the PTG. I personally...strictly my opinion..do not even mention the PTG to my customers. I dont plan to even when I become an RPT. Why?? Because I joined the PTG for very selfish reasons. After many years of working as a "lone wolf" piano tech, I wanted to learn more than I was learning by trial and error as I encounter new things. I wanted to know if I am as good as I think I am. During every chapter meeting, and at the national convention this year, I realize I made the right decision (for me at least) to join. There are learning opportunities in the PTG that exist nowhere else, without great expense. I dont say the foregoing in an effort to recruit or urge anyone to join. That decision is an individual thing. Along with everyone else here, I am simply stating an opinion.
_________________________
-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician

Top
#1251906 - 08/19/09 11:59 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Ron Alexander]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
When asked how I learned to tune, I explain that I took lessons from a blind tuner. (This was the only possible way for me to learn to tune at the time.) Rightly or wrongly, this always impresses the customer. Likewise, I could see various credentials rightly or wrongly impressing customers, also.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1252031 - 08/19/09 03:46 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3222
Loc: Madison, WI USA
All of this reminds me of the scene in the Wizard of Oz where the Wizard says to the Lion, "What you need is a testimonial!" The Wizard hands the Lion a parchment and the Lion's life is forevermore changed.

On the subject of blind tuners, customers have said to me many times, "I thought you had to be blind to be a piano tuner. The one we had when I was growing up always was".
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1252071 - 08/19/09 04:52 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I believe I know who Ron is talking about. Yes, he struggled to get the tuning exam passed. It took four attempts. He struggled as an immigrant to this country, facing a language barrier and a lot of rejection and discrimination against him. .


Ah, ... no. And I'm not talking about "perfection", I'm talking about 5 cents, 8 cents, 10 cent differences, creating that interesting "reverse well" type of temperament that's been written about many times before.

I'll be tuning a Winter spinet in an hour or so. I intend to put as much effort into making it sing that I do with the larger pianos used for concerts. And it WILL play nicely - sure the bass will be constrained by the dictates of design, but the middle and top blended together.... sublime. If a little voicing will help, I'll include some time for that as well. I'll be in and out in an hour, the partnership with my Verituner making effecient use of time and skills.

THAT's why my clients keep me and recommend me to friends, not because of any test I may or may not have taken, or which group I may belong to...

Ron Koval
Chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#1252100 - 08/19/09 05:38 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: RonTuner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2373
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Way to go Ron. Its nice to see a techs "patent" personal touch on a tuning when it turns out alright. It gives credence to the artistic nature of the work.

Rowan Atkinson quote:

"I, on the other hand, am a fully-rounded human being, with a degree from the University of Life, a diploma from the School of Hard Knocks, and three gold stars from the Kindergarten of Getting the **** Kicked Out of Me”
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#1252196 - 08/19/09 08:51 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Emmery]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
For my part, I'm very gratified to see the overall civil discourse on this topic...we've all come a good distance from the more edgy past...thanks, all!

RPD (my initials...and if my last name started with "T" I'd be in such trouble LOL!!)
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

Top
#1252284 - 08/19/09 11:32 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: RPD]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Oh yeah, I agree totally Rick. I actually find it quite interesting reading some of the other posts such as Emmery's and some other intelligent ones. The others we just ignore. grin Sorry, can't be all to serious now, can I???

As for what you are referring too, for my part, I most certainly do not want to get into that one again either. Once is enough for me! smile

You're probably right about your initials! wink
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1252385 - 08/20/09 07:14 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
When "we" mention that "we" ignore something, "we" aren't really ignoring it at all, are "we"?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1252394 - 08/20/09 07:45 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
All of this reminds me of the scene in the Wizard of Oz where the Wizard says to the Lion, "What you need is a testimonial!" The Wizard hands the Lion a parchment and the Lion's life is forevermore changed.

.....


Well Said!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1252471 - 08/20/09 09:53 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3222
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks Ron and Jeff. Ron, I would treat the Winter spinet just as you do. I carry my RPT card in my wallet but in 26 years, I've never shown it to a single client. In that same amount of time, there may have been a half dozen people who have asked me if I was a PTG member. I have mentioned it many more times, of course but usually it does not come up. It is on my bill, on my reminder cards, in my phone book ad, etc.

Interesting about the "reverse well". All I can say is, "See, I told you so." I'm not making that up. There is a reason why it occurs and I identified it long ago.

Regarding the person whom I thought you may have been referring to, his "testimonial" was very important to him. I guess, just as it was for the Lion. Let's not discourage people who desire it from getting it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1252494 - 08/20/09 10:23 AM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4936
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
...

Let's not discourage people who desire it from getting it.


Likewise, let's not disparage those who do not desire to get it.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1252611 - 08/20/09 12:36 PM Re: Certifications of Piano Technicians... I am confused... [Re: UnrightTooner]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
I'll say this much.

If I had a clientele where I absolutely needed to be on the "bleeding edge" all the time, I would apply to the Guild. For instance, if I was employed by a piano store chain where there were dozens of different brands of new pianos, many of which had non-traditional design features, I could certainly see the benefit.

I'm just a small town tuner. The overwhelming majority of pianos I work on are of traditional design. My sense of these pianos and of my customers is that they are best served by my continuing to concentrate on the fundamentals, such as continuing to refine the quality of my tuning, hammer technique, regulation, and repairs. Of course, it's not as sexy as being on the bleeding edge. But, it seems (to me) to be what's wanted here. Just a plain, traditional, (usually smile ) reliable tuning service folks can just call. Though I do make an effort to keep up by incorporating modern tools like the Verituner, and by reading and researching.

Just because I didn't join the PTG, please don't assume that I don't respect the choice.


Edited by daniokeeper (08/20/09 01:52 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Dream Keys Complete - Your Opinion Please
by Vas
32 minutes 45 seconds ago
First tuning my piano with TuneLab
by Pablo Arturi
Today at 04:03 PM
Getting back into it
by Upside
Today at 03:32 PM
In search of my piano name Brand
by Leoni
Today at 03:05 PM
"Black Widow" - Iggy Azalea
by Zach Evans
Today at 02:13 PM
Who's Online
158 registered (accordeur, 255, Altair, ajames, alans, 48 invisible), 1488 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76224 Members
42 Forums
157567 Topics
2314417 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission