|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
71 members (Abdulrohmanoman, Charles Cohen, accordeur, BWV846, Animisha, benkeys, Anglagard44, 14 invisible),
2,335
guests, and
433
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
TLT, I just read the other stuff you posted and I think you understand it. Here's a simple chart that shows the application in terms of the chord. http://www.apassion4jazz.net/modes.htmland this shows, what scales one would use with what chords: http://www.apassion4jazz.net/jazz-chords-scales.htmlAgain, although I explain it here, I don't want you to get to caught with the details of memorizing all this. Some of these modes are rare in Jazz. The common ones from the Major scale (outside of Ionian) are Dorian (ii chords), Mixolydian (V chords), Lydian (Maj7 and #11 chords) and from the Melodic minor modes, Altered (ALT chords), Whole Tone (#5 chords), Diminished Whole Tone (Half Diminished chords). The common major scale modes are self explanatory. The melodic minor modes have more unusual shapes.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336 |
TLT, I just read the other stuff you posted and I think you understand it. Yes, I think so too, otherwise I would just give up! Again, although I explain it here, I don't want you to get to caught with the details of memorizing all this.
No fear. The common ones from the Major scale (outside of Ionian) are Dorian (ii chords), Mixolydian (V chords), Lydian (Maj7 and #11 chords) and from the Melodic minor modes, Altered (ALT chords), Whole Tone (#5 chords), Diminished Whole Tone (Half Diminished chords).
OK, answer me this. When you talk about using a particular mode over a particular chord, is the music modulating with each chord change? Does do (as in 'do a deer') change, along with the sharps and flats? I'm just finding this difficult to believe. I think jazzers are using the word 'mode' in a different sense from that described in Wikipedia. Jazz has it's own language, and I can accept that, I'd just like to know if that's what's happening.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 14 |
Ten Thumbs- I think you are right to say that improvisors and Wiki look at modes in different ways. I want to try and address a couple of things from your post by relaying how I've used modes.
When I IMPROVISE on a tune in CMajor, I often "blanket" all the CMaj sounds with melodies from the same scale. Dminor7, Gdominant7, CMaj7 all lead my ears to the do-re-mi of the CMaj scale. Whether a melody starts on 'do', or 're', or 'mi' is irrelevant. It's all CMaj to my ears. TO ME, that means that I am (perhaps unintentionally, and probably simultaneously) applying to the CMAJ tonality ALL of these modes: C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeolian, B whatever this one is...
When I PRACTICE, it helps me to organize (and not forget things) if I use modes. I want to make sure my fingers can play CMAJ melodies beginning on any note and ending on any note. Thus, it is helpful when practicing the CMAJ SCALE, to practice this scale through all of its MODES (ie - all of its starting positions!) I play a C Ionian mode in 4 octaves, then a D dorian mode in 4 octaves, etc. This covers every starting position in the CMAJ SCALE.
When musicians assign a MODE to a chord type, generally, they are just being specific as to which key the melodies they are playing are derived.
When a player references D Dorian, he/she means melodies based on the sound of CMAJ. SO, a Dminor7 chord can be articulated with notes from CMAJ.
When a player references D Aeolian, melodies will come from the sound of the FMAJ scale. Here, Dminor7 can be articulated with that "raised 6" sound, the Bb note in my example.
Is this helpful? Please help me clarify - I'm quite passionate about "clarification"!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
TLT, you use the term "modulating" in a way that I didn't understand.
Just to be clear, moving from mode to mode within the same key is not modulating. Going from | Am7 D7 | GMaj7 | which is | Dorian Mixolydian | Ionian | is still in the key of G.
Now some people will just look at this as the key of "G" and not be conscious of shifting modes.
But that's one approach. During "PRACTICE", I definitely see more of chord tones floating inside the scale and extensions in between. Not everyone looks at it this way. This is what I was taught and allows me to think about chord tones on downbeats.
Now in "PERFORMANCE", I don't think about any of this at all. I'm just thinking about melodies. In fact, when I'm playing, I'm usually just listening and the training of chord tones on down beats allows me to predict what sound will come out. I'm not being led by my fingers.
This is a different practice style than what PaulDav1d said above at least for me. Now in performance, I think we're on the same wavelength. I will just see key of G and the G scale. It would be very unproductive to be thinking of "rules" while one improvises. And that's what I did when I was starting. Strangely enough, things happen to your brain and it becomes automatic. I think the "practice" style affects ear training IMHO.
Last edited by jazzwee; 08/18/09 11:20 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 14 |
Interesting Jazzwee... During "PRACTICE", I definitely see more of chord tones floating inside the scale and extensions in between. What's an exercise you work on that would help me see this concept more clearly? Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336 |
Got it, thanks guys! That's all I needed.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
Pauldav1d, my teacher has a unique sound. Clearly more melodic and less chromaticism. The way he has taught me is to land on the chord tones on the downbeats. Basically everything is done with intent. If I play something that seems to not be the chord tones (and maybe sounding outside), then it must be that I'm reharmonizing and stating a different chord. In practice, the harmony has to always be clear even without a rhythm section.
Hal Galper's book "Forward Motion" explains the approach well but the book supported what I was taught. I didn't start with the book.
Because of this concept, it became paramount to think of Chord tones vs extensions, since extensions get used only on the upbeats. So once I had to think this way, suddenly the concept of following "modes" seemed less significant. As I said earlier, the main chord tones + extensions are in essence the notes in a Mode.
Now I don't mean to imply here that I'm taught to play Vertically at all times since that is the implication in practice. But this was the foundation of the practice. If I played one note off the harmony, it would be brought to my attention. As my teacher said, this is "what separates the men from the boys in jazz". A lot of exactness.
Once this was embedded in my playing from practice, the focus was more on Horizontal playing. But of course this is tune by tune. Right now I'm working on "Very Early" (Bill Evans) and I can't really grasp anything horizontal with this tune. But my teacher does tell me to spend a lot of time understanding the framework of a tune and not just blindly play the changes. I'm sure the purpose being to look for some horizontal theme. Not always possible but at least I get the approach.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336 |
That's very interesting, jazzwee, I'm learning a lot here.
Now, at risk of being greedy in trying to sort two problems in one day, there is something I would like to confirm with the jazzers here. This was told me by my son's guitar teacher (not a jazz musician, but bluffs jazz!). He said for jazz I should learn modes of the melodic minor. I played what I thought was a melodic minor scale and he said, no, you need to do it 'ascending' both ways.
So I end up with a scale with raised 6th and 7th, but flattened 3rd. Basically, a major scale with a minor 3rd.
As jazzwee had just mentioned the melodic minor above, I thought I would check here I'm doing the right one before practicing it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
Yes TLT, as I said, the melodic minor is commonly used in the chords I mentioned earlier (ALT, #5, Half Dim). And you have correct information on the accidentals.
But personally, aside from making sure I understand the shape in all keys, I don't really worry about fingering issues here myself. Some may disagree but I hardly ever play a scale.
And again to reiterate how I practice this, I look at the chord shape and possibly I might arpeggiate the chord all the way to its extensions (1-3-5-7-9-11-13), so although the notes are the mode for that particular chord, I make sure I view it as chord + extensions. This is my method and personally find it easier to make melodies with this kind of thinking.
Bill Evans plays a lot like this.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336 |
Melodic minor - got it. Arpeggios and scales - interesting. I may add this 'scarpeggio' to my daily routine. Looking back, I think I learned a lot by doing scales. I certainly learned theory through them. I could never really take theory as theory - but if I play and hear it, then that's fine. Btw, the jazz site you referenced is a little gold mine!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
TLT, Remember our little discussion in the other thread about theory? This is what I meant about theory being important, to understand harmony to every chord and extensions. I didn't mean that every one needs to be a "modes" expert. Heck, even my teacher who's a world class pianist wouldn't necessarily remember each mode. In fact, he learned it later when he began to teach. He did know everything about every chord and what to play though.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 617
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 617 |
Now I don't mean to imply here that I'm taught to play Vertically at all times since that is the implication in practice. But this was the foundation of the practice. If I played one note off the harmony, it would be brought to my attention. As my teacher said, this is "what separates the men from the boys in jazz". A lot of exactness.
What about the girls
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
Now I don't mean to imply here that I'm taught to play Vertically at all times since that is the implication in practice. But this was the foundation of the practice. If I played one note off the harmony, it would be brought to my attention. As my teacher said, this is "what separates the men from the boys in jazz". A lot of exactness.
What about the girls OK. The PC version: The grownups from the kids? Of course I'm quoting so don't want to put words in somebody else's mouth
Last edited by jazzwee; 08/18/09 07:19 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336 |
I was wondering whether I was to be a boy or a man but was too afraid to ask! We would say: separates the sheep from the goats.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 14 |
The word 'scarpeggio' made me think of another exercise I learned from a freak of nature saxophone teacher, Ed Peterson. And I used this specifically on those Melodic Minor scales - a major scale with a minor 3rd - but it can be applied to any and every scale. For the example, I'm using CMAJ:
Ed would ARPPEGIATE the chord ascending in 8th notes: In CMaj: C-E-G-B He'd then descend the SCALE, also in 8ths: A-G-F-E
The exercise then repeats without pause from the second mode (arpeggiating a Dmin7 in this example): D-F-A-C And descend down the scale: B-A-G-F
Leading right into an arpeggio based on the third mode, or the chord Emin7: E-G-B-D And descending the scale: C-B-A-G
The exercise continues through all modes (or through all the DIATONIC 7th chords). Ascending the arpeggio, descending the scale...sounds like a really inside-the-harmony bebop drill.
And of course, all the usual permutations are available if you then DESCEND the arpeggio and ASCEND the scale etc.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336 |
That sounds like the intro to Mr Sandman! I can only do two and then I need to sing in 4-part harmony.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
PaulDav1d, that's pretty similiar to what I do although I was practicing it ascending only, 1-3-5-7, 9-11-13-1. But regardless of the pattern, it helped me always visualize the chords vs. extensions as being inside the scale, even of a melodic minor mode. Major scales are more obvious.
Reminds me of the book Goal-Note Method by Shelly Berg. If you visualize your goal note (a chord tone) then you can easily visualize your approaches to it if the mapping of major chord tones to extensions is clear in one's head and practiced.
But like you, I just hear it now. I don't have to think about it. Various methods of teaching. In my case, I never did any singing nor do I work on "licks". I guess we try something till it works.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 16
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 16 |
Another $0.02 on Mark Levine's texts: for me, Levine is pointing toward a large -- and seemingly accurate -- harmonic vocabulary, which he attempts to explain in terms of the chord-scale relationship ideas that have been circulating over the last fifteen or twenty years. The texts' value seems to lie in their being an almost encyclopedic survey of recent common practice. I personally think they're a wonderful achievement, and that they can probably steer readers toward at least some musical ideas they haven't previously encountered. As far as his 'theory' goes, though, I find it seriously lacking. To me, good theory attempts to find the connections between innovations and their precedents, and to look for the musical logic (even of a new sort) that underlies a musical event; Levine's rarely penetrates the surface, and potentially leaves the student burdened with a series of irrelevancies and misconceptions that can only complicate his/her search for musical knowledge. That being said, though, I still admire his books, and congratulate his accomplishment. Michael Leibson www.thinkingmusic.ca
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|