Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum I hate scales!

Thank you once again J Cortese for your very cool eloquence. Couldn't have said it better myself than your first post on this topic.

Added to that, I feel in my teaching I must include scales because they are great exercises that lay out the actual meat-and-potatoes of music. You learn all the major and minor keys. They get in your head and your fingers.
And their relation to one another is interesting. They are another way to familiarize yourself with your instrument and music, and I feel are quite essential.

Unfortunately they can be boring in presentation. I'm in the process of writing a series of books on scales - mainly for kids to make them more fun, and more approachable.

Try running through your scales in different ways - all the white key scales, then the flats scales another time. Try practicing them chromatically - C, Db, D, E, etc. Go Major/Minor. Shuffle up the practice routine, and use them as a warm-up. Have fun. You may even learn to love them as much as I do.

Joan

You won't automatically get any benefit from playing scales. It depends on how you play them. Let's say you play your scales over and over with a sloppy technique and no thought as to how they sound. Your playing is hardly likely to improve. If on the other hand you are focused on developing something then the repetitions will do you good. They are exercises. It's like doing push-ups, you wouldn't just do one would you? Of course you need to do the same thing over and over, just make sure you are doing it correctly.

I would agree that they are less useful for a complete beginner. That's why I teach tetrachords, a pattern that many teachers don't bother with. They work because they can be found in even the most basic pieces and provide a good starting point for developing scales later on.

How much should you practise them? Well, how long can you keep focused? It will differ from one person to the next. If you feel like you are just repeating for the sake of it then you should stop.

Anyway, I am bowing out of this thread. Arguing about the benefits of scales feels too much like work and I have broken up for the summer. So if you want to practise scales then go for it, if not don't.

I think repetition becomes mindless when we lose sight of the point.

I've always had a problem with the phrase "practicing scales." I've never practiced scales. But I have practiced hand shape, tonal control, careful listening, navigating keyboard topography, rhythmic intensity, and tempo control while playing scales.

When you practice scales in order to make your scales better, then it's pretty much pointless, because good scales aren't really all that interesting.

But when you use scales to practice all those other things, then it's extremely valuable and very efficient, because the things you can learn while working on scales can make everything you do at the piano better.

I don't *make* anyone play scales. When I suggest that they be practiced, learned, I doubt that anyone who does this would say that doing it doesn't make sense.

Which to me is the WRONG reason for doing anything!

If there is a point to it, it's not mindless.

My teacher, who had to pass "technique juries" as an undergrad, so has the "chops", used to be one of those teachers who said, "Oh I think you can learn technique from repertoire, so don't worry too much about it."

I kept saying "I didn't really learn scales and arps before and I feel like it's a gap in my skills I'd like to fill." So finally we started seriously working on the harmonic minor scales. As a few lessons went by she said, "Wow I can really see the improvement in your playing". (edited to add: she did not mean, "Wow you are really playing scales better" she meant, "Wow your playing of everything has improved.")

Then we moved onto broken octaves and arps and she said, "Wow. I'm inspired to go practice technical exercises myself. The improvement is really noticeable. I really believe adult students can do as well as kids if they work at it."

*I* personally don't notice the difference in my playing because I guess it happens so gradually day-to-day. But I don't think there's much question that if you want to get your technical chops as good as possible, technique practice will get you there in the shortest amount of time with the biggest improvements.

I have to echo the spirit of ProdigalPianist's post. I do not have the background of that teacher, but I did do a number of technical studies. Frustrated with not being able to get my students to learn their technique, I sometimes let it slip. Then I realized that they were struggling with elements I found completely natural because of those studies.

I have recently taken up more serious scale and chord work for myself in the hope of getting a diploma (through RCM). After a while, I noticed my hard pieces weren't so hard any more. This has continued as I continue my work on scales. I am delighted by the way pieces fall under my fingers.



It is not a "leap of faith" to trust your teacher. I agree that it is not good to do something just because it has always been done that way. It is equally bad, however, to ask someone to teach you and to not trust their judgment at least a little bit. It is hard to explain to a young child why certain school lessons are important. The parent or teacher who has used the skill many times knows that the child really needs it. Your teacher should give some explanation, but you should give it an honest try, too.



You got it! Scales are not about pushing your fingers down in different patterns like Hanon but rather about learning the keyboard patterns used in Western music. The point is to (a) learn the notes that belong in the key and (b) learn to navigate the key efficiently. Sometimes I watch my students try to read a piece and wonder at the difficult time they have remembering which notes are sharp or flat. When the scale is mastered, this becomes second nature. The scale is an element of keyboard geography. You are reducing the key to its simplest and most straight-forward form while learning it. Then when you approach the piece, you can focus on other elements.

Along the same line, you should learn the primary chords and basic chord progressions in all keys. This has the same advantage of reducing your learning time of a piece. You already know the chords. You just have to put them in the right order.

Can I explain every detail of this process? No. But I know it works. It has worked for me. It works for my students. ("Hey! This is just like ______ in my technique!")

I really hope you decide to give scales a real chance to do the same for you.

Practicing your technique is vital! Many pieces contain scale passages, sonatas, nocturnes, fantasias, and most of them require great dexterity and speed. If you don't practice your technique regularly, it is quite likely that you will stumble on scale passages/arpeggio passages in pieces. In RCM grades, there is a technical portion, which is directly related to songs in the repertoire. So its really important to practice your scales/chords/arpeggios.

I'm not going to lecture. How can you hate them? I love them. They are my preferred warm-up. After playing them I feel so fulfilled. I am always scaling between pieces. I didn't always love them. There was a time when they bored the pants off me. But then I learnt to focus carefully on playing them, on my wrists, on the fingering and work with a metronome. I practiced every day and then built up skills. My teacher taught me to really concentrate on the tone and rythym. After one year, the confidence from playing all the scales accurately in both hands and at a decent speed really helped my general playing and technique in so many ways. Of course some students are put off because teachers make scathing remarks on the basis of a misplayed scale and the student is musically frustrated. This is a wrong way of looking at it. It is not always a case of being on test. Practice them alone regularly in your own good time along with your repertoire. Make sure you keep a steady beat and don't go off it. As soon as you've done the scales work on appreggios based on the scales but strictly measured and with alternating dynamics.

I love this thread. I'm going to bookmark it. I hated scales as a kid because the Circle of Fifths just did NOT make any sense to me. I was worried when I started on scales again and when I balked, my current teacher told me to just do them and they'll start to fall into place. I still struggle with them, but I like the result in my playing. My goal is to be able to play through them all majors + relative minors (harmonic & medlodic) + arpeggios + final cadences. I'm just finishing Eb major. When I finish, I suspect that I will make a huge leap in advancement -- like Prodigal, I think the scales were a huge gap (I just learned 2 octaves of the major sharps) that always left me feeling muddled.

Note on playing pop music: There are often abrupt key signature shifts (Barry Manilow comes to mind) and if the scales have become intuitively ingrained -- it makes sight reading fun stuff a LOT easier.

Susan

There are players who just love scales,
and whose practice session is
essentially scales and nothing else.
(Scales are easy compared to
repertoire.)

Most people, however, don't like scales.
It would be unwise for such folks
to force themselves to practice
scales extensively, because that
could turn piano into unpleasant
drudgery. And when some activity becomes
associated with unpleasantness,
that's going to eventually lead to
the person quitting the activity.

However, I have good news for
people who hate scales. I see
scales as mainly a physical drill
in finger-crossing, which is a
basic skill needed in playing.
And since the finger-crossing motion
is similar in all scales, the
argument can be made that a person could
get by with just one scale. And
since C maj. is the most difficult scale
of all (the most difficult thing
to play on a piano is a fast,
irregular passage on all white keys,
since there are no black keys to give
tactile and visual reference points
for your fingers), you might
play just it. (If you need to
practice some other scale
for some reason, you can play it
with C maj. fingering, and that will
get you through it adequately.)

How do you know that "most people don't like scales"?
Where did you get that information?
I love 'em and a practice session for me without scales is not complete. Many pianists I know share this love of scales and need to play them.
C major scale fingering is not traditionally correct for all other scales. Example: any beginning on a black key.

Thank you, Barb!

Part of the reason to practice scales is to get the right fingering, because the correct fingering makes them easier to play. Playing scales helps develop good fingering. And good fingering, comfortable fingering promotes better playing!

Playing scales helps a student recognize key signatures more easily and know which notes are sharp or flat. As J Cortese says, knowing the landscape, the geography.

But many others have stated the benefits above more eloquently, and I don't want to be redundant.

Eat your spinach! Practice your scales! It's good for you.

Depends how you think about it.

If you just repeat 1231234 indefinitely, then all scales can be fingered the same. The only difference is which finger you start on (and you choose that to make sure the correct finger hits the black keys). So then yes, all major scales use C major fingering. Though you may never see that fingering in repertoire.



I like this comment from Kreisler. I think it dispels some of the myths about what scales do. And it points out that scales aren't likely to help much, unless you practice them with the correct intent. We tend to treat scales as magic: play them enough, and you'll learn transferable skills, regardless of how you do them. Probably not true for most people.

I would like to give a little help to anyone perplexed about starting scales on a black notes. There are "rules" about fingering black notes - and no one seems to have mentioned it - so perhaps it's not as well known as I think it should be.

If a piano teacher doesn't know such things, who would?

|_||_| 2 black keys
Place Right Hand Fingers 2 and 3
Place Left Hand Fingers 3 and 4

|_||_||_| 3 black keys
Place Right Hand Fingers 2-3-4
Place Left Hand Fingers 4-3-2

Whenever starting on one of these black keys, use the above assigned fingers and carry through with the 123,1234 fingering that Tim was recommending depending where in the sequence your scale began. Check this out by doing it one hand at a time to verify your understanding of what is being said here by 1)me, and 2) by Tim.

Remember that with the white key starts, the fingering of the scales are the same: C, G, D, A, E
Right Hand: 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5
Left Hand : 5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1

The fingering exceptions start with:
the Major Scale of B - where the LH finger on B is 4
the Major Scale of F - where the RH finger on Bb is 4.

I hope you have fun discovering this and making it your own. If you are serious about wanting to improve and be comprehensive with your scale work, this information should be exactly what you need to make sense of it.

The other way I would teach Major Scales would be to teach you by tetrachord formation. This formula confirms all there is to know about how to create a Major Scale.

Another comment I would make is a personal opinion that if you have not completed your 5 Finger Positions first, and then your Major Scales second, and been accurate in each of those scales, then you should NOT be working on any other scales, such as relative/harmonic/melodic minors yet. If you can't find the letter names nor the fingering of the major scales you should definitely stick with those first before moving on. There are 12 Major Scales because there are 7 white notes and 5 black notes in every octave, he distance a Major Scale travels. The 8th degree, the octave is a repeat of the first degree of each scale.

Do you know about scale degress? They are another worthwhile part of music theory that helps you to greatly understand the construction of a major scale as are the tetrachords.

I am always ready to be helpful. But one of the parts of instruction given by a professional experienced piano teacher is that you would be expected to follow thru with the instruction as given. This, in my opinion, is one of the most misunderstood parts of piano lessons.

There is much structure and foundation to everything we do in music and the road to incredible knowledge about the music staff, the keyboard, sound reproduction, technique, and sensational abilities at the keyboard is because the student accepted and followed the challenge with a piano teachers guidance to become fully versative with music theory.

Forgive me my opinion if it seems in excess of yours. I stand by mine because I have lived them, learned from them, and met the challenges that were before me. I hope that each of you who consider yourselves to be a serious learner can get to this point of discovery as it's one of the best adventures in music study to be one of the "in" crowd.

I hope you take my posting with the enthusiasm that it is being given. Don't waste your time moping and being stuck, there is a "fix" for it. It is following the process of learning in a structured and disciplined way. I think the eagle eyes of a teacher have helped many a developing pianist from going astray. But let's remember, too, that all piano teachers are not created equally - so find yourself a very good one, the best your budget can afford. I suggest that students should ditch the quasi-teachers as soon as they recognize they have one.

Nice clear explanation of scale fingering! It should probably be at the beginning of each scale book the teacher hands out.

Instead, the books have the fingerings written in, with no explanation of why. To me that makes it hard to remember how to finger them, whereas if you understand why you can always figure it out.

At the risk of adding confusion: if you follow Betty's directions, there are a couple of scales that can be fingered more than one way, and a nonstandard fingering fits the rules slightly better. The difference is small. Some teachers are a stickler for the "book" solution, others not. My teacher said my fingering was wrong - but she was happy enough I was practicing she overlooked it. I would have done it her way if it really bothered her, but we both had a sense of humor about it.

Susan, you have the right attitude. Because scales do more than exercise fingers. They teach the vocabulary of music theory too. And scales are allied to appreggios and inversions in all keys. Yes, the circle of fifths is a component in all music and is used by most composers from Debussy to Count Basie et al. By practicing inversions and scales through the Circle of Fifths the music student becomes a fluent musician and sight reader with technical confidence to handle most music.

The practice of scales should not of course be unmusical. And you shouldn't grind away at them at the expense of repertoire. Beethoven famously said that in order to play his sonatas all you needed was the ability to play the C Major scale. Of course, the C Major is the most difficult for reasons explained by Gyro. But, I happen to love scales with my ears as much as my fingers. And I like to choose pieces which have nice scales in them. I am currently working on Chopin Polonaise Opus 53 and Liszt's Un Sospiro. We're talking scales here and I can't get enough of them.

Even if C major is arguably the most difficult scale, I don't think it has anything to do with the reasons cited (i.e., "black keys to give tactile and visual reference points for your fingers"). Instead, I believe it's the most uncomfortable because the fingers are constrained to the front ends of the keytops; the shape of the hands is unnatural, and the thumb consequently has the most limited space in which to pass under the other fingers.

Steven

Hmm. Seems like a pretty good argument for using C major to teach thumb over instead, then.

The C Major Scale

|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
C D E F G A B C (Letter Names)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (Degrees)

When we look at the Key of C, there are 8 adjacent white notes in the octave with a group of 2 black notes and a group of 3 black notes interspersed. Measure it off and really look at it to understand it's composition please.

From the 3rd to the 4th degree and from the 7th to the 8 degree we see adjacent white notes without black notes. These are half steps. The definition of whole step is 2 half steps.

The "tetrachord" formula creates the major scale:
* W W H + W W W W
1 2 3 4 - 5 6 7 9 (Degrees)

To create tetrachords on the piano I recommend using certain fingering:
LH 5 4 3 2 - RH 2 3 4 5
Thumbs are not used for this mental and physical exercise which is finding the notes to be played within the major scale.

* simply represents that this is the "keynote", the note that you are building the major scale on.

Now that we can work with the major scale and SEE the tetrachord formation we learn that the group of 2 black notes have 3 white notes directly in front of them: CDE (See this as a unit)

The 3 black notes have 4 white notes directly in front of them: FGAB (See this as a unit)

White note fingering of the C Major Scale is now determined by the above discovery: RH 1 2 3 - 1 2 3 4 (continously played through other octaves until stopped by the 5th finger completing the last C.)

To teach the LH it's fingering (because of opposing thumbs on our hands), place both thumbs on Middle C and play in opposite directions using the established RH finger to call out the fingering choices for both hands.

Middle C is the "keynote" with thumbs placed "piggyback" upon it.

Say and Play:
(1)2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5
Both hands are moving away from the middle in contrary motion.

This creates a range of 5 C's (Middle C/Space C's/Leger Line C's
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B (C) D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 (1) 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5

Then examine the LH fingering as it appears from the bottom note to the top note in it's range:
5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 LH

You have proven the fingering through use of the contrary motion system which accounts for the opposing fingers.

In Parallel Motion:
LH 5 starts on the lowest C while RH 5 ends at the highest C
(1) 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5
5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 (1)

(1) expresses Middle C

Put these 2 strings of numbers side by side and you have the:
5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5

All this to make my point that this is an essential 1st scale to learn because of it's visual transfer of information.

It is also as mentioned more constricting in hand shape and finger motions that other positions where the elevation of a finger to a black note seems to be more comfortable to many people.

But, it simply seems that way - it is not harder to play.

The undiscipline piano hand as well as the undisciplined mind can not accomodate this pianist requirement. It is only through training and drilling of the scales, starting with the C Major which holds all white notes, that we can make ourselves versatile in thinking and doing major scales. The most skillful of pianists get that way because of their uncomplaining adherance to the music theory system which is based on mathematics and science over and over again.

Human preferances have little to do with the scope and domain of how things are organized on the piano. The graphics of the keyboard require certain shapings of our hands and extentions or contractions of our fingers relating closely to physics.

I could go on and on, but I bet the reader cannot. This is all learned over time and through experience. Looking quickly at a book and impatiently playing through the way you think you see it is not good enough. This is drill time such as learned in the military - the "boot camp" process.

These extreme requirements are probably why most people are not able to completely get the process and the sound of it. Physical d exterity, agilily, flexibility, fluency, strength as well as mental comprehension of the task would be the result of a very good accomplishment of major scales. All 12 of them in sound-pitch, but to make things more interesting, then spelled enharmonically to include more than one naming for the same sound.

I offer this in the hopes of others gaining perspective of how the piano learning systems can work for them.

Hm ... I'm curious as to how much of this I'll remember when I buy my clav, now that I think about it!