This is very helpful information, thank you!

I brought up the ODD guestion originally. I agree, it is hard to diagnose from a post.

ODD children are argumentative or outright disobedient in even the simplest tasks...Like using the correct finger numbers. Much more so than the average child should be and they can't help it. It can indicate the beginning of mental illness.

But there could be many reasons for this child's personality quarks. The mother is realizing this in not normal and that is a good indicator that something is wrong. It could be many things. I wont list them here.

keystring,
This could point to a problem with the parent, but could also be because of her willingness to stay with the Suzuki method. Her daughter does play several pieces fluently, and has done well in the state school music audition system. Did I mention in my OP that the student is a Suzuki student?

BevP

Wow! I certainly do. I never knew there was a name for it though.

Yet another point about this student:

If I choose to give this particular student latitude with the fingering, or perhaps, not challenge her on her flat fingered technique, what happens when she moves on to another teacher, which, she most likely will, someday?

If I choose not to correct these technical quirks, then I become another in a line of teachers who saw her poor technique and fingering choices, and did nothing about it. The parent will find another teacher, and the cycle will continue. How many of us here have taken on transfer students with poor habits and wondered what the heck happened along the way? And, then will cringe at what a horrible time we'll have trying to correct poor habits?

BevP

Playing devil's advocate (not that your student is a devil) -- but what's wrong with her fingering? Maybe she's not being defiant, maybe that fingering (1 3 1 3 5)works better for her. I have a hard time imagining why (2 4 2 4 5) would be that much more convenient. Kids often have a hard time creating space between their 4th and 5th fingers.

Sounds to me like she's headstrong, creative (i.e. wants to explore "other ways" to do fingering) and therefore is probably not a good match for Suzuki method.

I'd hesitate putting a bunch of letters after this kid and labelling her. She sounds bored to me.

~Jennifer

I personally do not see much that is wrong or diagnostic of any pathology here. I do see that I am in the minority though.
Humans come in different flavors and I think the child's mom is commendable for being upfront and apparently honest with you. Dealing with this kid will be a small challenge that will enrich your teaching skills.
Plus I hate the word "obedient". Piano class is not obedience school! I for one was always curious to see what is on the other side of obedience and "norm"..

Personally, I thought the issue had less to do with discipline and obedience than the basic expectation that teachers know more than their pupils and that lessons aren't about self-discovery. An adult student takes direction from a teacher, so why not a child? If a student isn't there to learn from the teacher, why be there at all? In public schools, the predicament is understandable because it's a compulsory situation. Piano lessons are not.

I think it's a different set of circumstances if the teacher is simply wrong or incompetent. I had such teachers as a child (for piano and in public school), and I did push back. In this case, though, there's no evidence whatsoever of inept teaching or, in my opinion, that the child is anything but inappropriately stubborn, whatever the reason for it.

Steven

Well said Bev! You are right (IMHO) to be concerned about that. Plus, when she gets further along, it will be much harder for her to do things, if she was allowed to play incorrectly in the beginning. For example: the child that was allowed to write "to" instead of "too" his entire elementary school career. He won't be changing it when he gets to middle school!

As I look in my Suzuki manual, one of the teaching points of this piece is the fingering. I'm sure most kids would want to play this passage with the fingering of 1 - 3- 5. My assumption is that Dr. Suzuki or Kataoka decided to finger this 2-4-5 as a means to stretch the fingers. I realize it might not be comfortable for some students, but I'm going "by the book" here.

If the student plays the passage with 1-3-5, they will have to change the fingering somehow to land on the lower G in the descending arpeggio that follows it.

i.e. (hopefully I can get the fingerings and notes to line up)
Please note the piece switches between C and E, then goes up to G, then arpeggiates down an entire octave to the G below the starting C. I couldn't get the notes and fingerings to line up.

Here is the student's way, I would guess, as we really never explored the what happens when you arpeggiate downward:
C E C E G E C G
1 3 1 3 5 3 2 1

Here is the way from the Suzuki book

C E C E G E C G
2 4 2 4 5 4 2 1

It seems to me that the second way is *intended* to be easier, so that the student doesn't have to switch fingers.

She may not be a great match for the Suzuki method, but the Mom is in love with it.

What prompted me to post originally was my surprise at the fact that she did not even try the other way. It's not like she tried 2-4-2-4 and said anything to communicate that she was uncomfortable. I demo'd 2-4-2-4, when she didn't
play that way, I verbally instructed her to play 2-4-2-4, and she didn't do it. That was the point of my original post, I think. At least try the fingering.. that's what learning is about, in my opinion.

This student also plays Kabalevsky's, "Clowns" entirely legato, though I've tried to get her to play it as written, with staccato's and legato's. I didn't teach her this piece. The Mom was interested in having this child play the piece at the state auditions, and it will be my job to help her polish it. Given my limited experience with this student, I'm afraid that we will disagree on how this piece should be played, as well. What should I do then? At some point, she's going to have to follow directions or face the consequences at the adjucation, right?

*sigh*
I'm all about creating harmony with each student. I do feel that the fingering issue may be indicative of a bumpy road ahead.

BevP

Right again Steven What is the point of paying a teacher if you don't trust them to do the right thing? The thing that will benefit the student the most in the long run.

For what it's worth, I think you're doing the right thing. Of course it's more comfortable to play it her way, but if allowed to play it that way she won't be prepared when stretching passages come up.


I'm sorry, I hope you can get this worked out!

Wait ONE MINUTE! It just occured to me that my husband is probably ODD too....N0w it all makes sense.

There is also the question of the
validity of the Suzuki Method itself
for piano instruction. The method
was apparently invented for the violin,
which seems particularly well-suited
to it. But given the popularity of
piano, it was apparently jury-rigged
for piano instruction, but it does
not appear to be as well-suited to
piano instruction. And there
is even question of its validity
for serious violin instruction.

The psychological aspect of piano is
universally overlooked. Of course, a
generic fingering scheme can be
forced on any student, and he'll
manage to play with that. But, aside
for its unsuitability to the
student's individual physiology,
if it doesn't suit the student's
individual psychology, this is going
to gnaw at his pysche until the
mind eventually rebels and shuts
down the student's playing in some
way.

No teacher can have a clue as to
the student's individual physiology
and psychology, and this is why
I believe no teacher can correct
things like posture, fingering,
technique, etc., since these are
all intrinsically wrapped up with
an individual's physiology and
psychology.

I realize this isn't quite the topic, but the most comfortable fingering for me is 1 3 1 3 5 4 3/2 1. I'm not really a "by the book" type of person, though, and from what little I know of the Suzuki method, it expects everything to be done the same.

I think we're all a little ODD... and a little ADD, and about every other sequence of letters out there. Just have to learn how to live with it.

There's question as to the validity of this criticism, given that it consists solely of vague generalities. There's nothing like slipping in "seems, "appears" and "apparently" when you want the cover of slipperiness for unverified allegations instead of providing the necessary details to back up your claims.


This sounds more like the wild theorizing and posturing of a self-styled contrarian than anything with a basis in reality.


If it weren't possible for a teacher to know anything of an individual's psychology or physiology, I wonder how it's possible for a physician? Maybe all teachers need to go to med school so that they can understand all those special details intrinsic to each unique individual they meet.

Steven

I still prefer her fingering even if it's not "by the book." I think that fingering is so physiologically dependent that it is foolish to force a prescribed fingering on a young student. Both ways work so I would choose my battles and move on. I understand your frustration though if she refused to even try the alternate fingering.

Do you think she enjoys the piano or is being forced? This sounds like pretty classic "I don't want to do this so I'll make life a living hell for my teacher till mommy lets me quit" behavior.

~Jennifer

I think she enjoys playing, actually! I'll just have to wait and see how things go this fall.

BevP

Let's see if I can create a coherant post - so many things I want to respond to!

My husband was a classically trained violinist, and we, as parents, were suspicious and generally negative about the Suzuki method. Then one day, the Atlanta newspaper did a story on the 10 newest violinists in the ASO. It was divided about evenly between those who had learned traditionally and those who had learned Suzuki. What a surprise to us, that both methods yielded symphony-quality musicians. Our daughter eventually had her first 5 years of lessons via Suzuki, and traditional since then (she's a college junior now, violin performance major.) All of her traditional teachers were surprised to find out she'd learned via Suzuki - they didn't expect her to be such a good reader! And she has an incredible ear and memory.

But I admit to having more concerns about the Suzuki piano method, although I have zero experience with it. To the OP, I wonder if you only teach Suzuki? Are you Suzuki trained? Or is this is your ONLY Suzuki student? Do you use any other material along with?

I posted elsewhere about a new transfer student I have who knew nothing about finger numbers or rhythms. Clueless! She came to me having just "finished" level one Faber. But the teacher had only used the Lesson book; no theory, technique, etc. I stewed for a couple weeks, not sure how best to help her, and pulling my hair out at lessons as we spent 30 mintues on 2 measures with little success. Prior to total baldness, I decided to to start her over at the beginning of level 1. This time we are skipping the Lesson book, and only using technique, theory, and performance. Last week she came in happy and excited, and actually made progress. Her relief was visible.

Prior to that week, I would have also labeled her Oppositional-defiant. Every time I tried to tell her something, she ignored me, interrupted me, or argued with me. Last week she actually spoke her thoughts out loud as she worked on her pieces, "Let's see, this is finger one -- No, that's five, this is one..."

I realized that what I thought was a behavior problem was actually probably a combinaton of being overwhelmed, embarrassed, and ashamed. Much easier to avoid the issue than to constantly be made to feel stupid and inept.

So... all that to say ... perhaps you could add in other material - an appropriate level Dozen a Day book, for example. Something that is more quickly attainable, that reinforces or works fingerings and techniques, something that she hasn't already learned the wrong way. Help her take some baby steps in the right direction and help her develop some confidence.

Please note the piece switches between C and E, then goes up to Bev told us:
"G, then arpeggiates down an entire octave to the G below the starting C. I couldn't get the notes and fingerings to line up.

Here is the student's way, I would guess, as we really never explored the what happens when you arpeggiate downward:
C E C E G E C G
1 3 1 3 5 3 2 1

Here is the way from the Suzuki book

C E C E G E C G
2 4 2 4 5 4 2 1"

If a G/1 had appeared before the first C/2 it would make sense that this is preparation for a G octave G/1 and G/5, with the inner fingers of C/2 and E/4. This is good training actually. Now if there was a little more to the exercise itself, the 2 would have to stay and be played on the C.

Letter Name C-E-C-E-C
Fingering 2-4-2-4-2
Counting ti-ti-ti-ti-Half-Note

If this example appeared in music literature as it is written, I would play it with the fingering the girl used because it appears to be in the Key of C and you have just "created" the octave span, whereas, in the 2-4 example, the octave scan is already there with 3 of the notes/keys and the only finger extention possible is with the 1, and to complete the task, placed on the G.

So, both are valid, I think. I would ask the student to do it as written first, and then to discuss her "options".

Fingering ichoices are based on where we are coming from to where we are going and also on the size and shape of the hand:
long fingers/short fingers - wide hand/narrow hand.

By examining all possibilities, one finds freedom in fingering as long as it is effective in sound production and efficient in movement.

Her reading of spatial relationships from the music page may be different than yours. Perhaps a good part of the remedy could be learning to read by distance and direction and recognizing line to line or space to space 3rds, 5ths and 7ths, and
line to space or space to line 2nd, 4ths 6ths and 8ths. This would tell her how far to open her hand from a 5 finger postion. this may be all the "argument" you need to make in helping her to find "best" fingering.

One question I would ask you is: Are her fingering consistent in the same piece played at different times?

Is she random/abstract in nature and not at all concrete/sequential? You would notice these things by the way she chooses to work through new music, and the way she tackles writing on a page of music. For instance, when asking her to circle all quarter rests on the page, she places the pencil whereever she wants and circles randomly with no organization such as from the top of the music, along each line, circling each on as they appear in reading of the music.

If this is something she does, she may also need some eye training for learning how to move across the page.

I see hidden clues in what you are writing about, but there is uncertainty in my mind until I would see this in action and also from working with her.

There are missing links in her piano education and they can be found in the manner I'm posting about.

Challenging situation you have there!

+1

Gyro, would you be so kind as to post some video footage (or at least audio) of you playing?
I would love to see your 'ideas' in action.
Many people can talk the talk, I'm just curious if you can walk the walk.
I think your ideas in this area are downright ridiculous but I'd be willing to be proven wrong through a demonstration...

Sal said:



Amen to this. This O.D.D. thing is a new one to me, but they are all starting to sound alike of course, with the 3-letter initialization, and lots of D's. I can't shake the picture of a couple employees in some room somewhere trying so hard to come up with new "disorder" names. First the three full words, then a "sound check" to make sure it sounds cool when initialized into the 3 letters. And of course, the boss occassionally coming around with a "These are awesome Jackson. You are really on a roll, keep it up. I'll get these out there right away"!

Or, maybe I've just watched too many Saturday Night Live skits over the years.

Lollipop,
Thanks for your help. Adding in a Dozen a Day does sound like it would be helpful with this student. I will suggest it, because she seems the type that would really benefit in a number of ways. I am a Suzuki teacher, Suzuki trained, by someone who studied directly with Dr. Suzuki. She is not my only Suzuki student, nor my only Suzuki transfer student. (gosh..can you say that 3x fast?)

I do supplement with other materials, Music Road being one of them, for reading purposes. She's about 1/2 way through book 1, coincidentally where the book introduces 3rds. However,
introducing more technical studies will be helpful in giving her something simple to read that is easily mastered, along with developing good technique.

I'm glad you can understand the frustration of taking on a transfer student, and am also happy that you had success with your student!! I hope I have the same breakthrough of understanding with mine, as well.


BevP

Hi Betty,
The student and I only got through the first 4 phrases of this piece. It is written in C, and when she gets back in the fall... boy, will I have a lot of info to use to guide her through this piece!
I will check to see if her fingering is consistent, and try to make it so if it isn't, and when I get to know her better, I'll know now to look for other clues with regards to her learning style. I still think there may be behavioral issues, based on what her Mom has shared with me, and we'll just have to see what happens.

Gosh, wouldn't it be wild if her Mom decided not to re-register her for fall after all this? LOL

Thanks for your guidance,
Bev

A few months ago I reviewed a book for amazon.com that some of you might find helpful:

Alphabet Kids

It's basically an alphabetical listing of various psychological and neurological disorders that children can have. The authors devote 2-4 pages per disorder, with a listing of symptoms, prognosis, and treatment options.

It's written for a lay audience, and as far as I could tell from the entries on disorders that I was most familiar with, it is quite accurate in its portrayal of the disorders and their assessment of the current state of the psychological literature.

I'm not sure it's a good book for parents to get; too many of the disorders are nonspecific, and I worry that reading the book could lead to 'medical student syndrome' where you start thinking your kid has all the disorders listed there. But I think it's an excellent book for teachers who may encounter a wide range of diagnoses in their classrooms.

Monika, that sounds really useful. It's going in my shopping cart, and I'll probably get it next time I mass order.

I think as teacher is is important to understand a little about this. Sensory integration is also a big one that affects how children learn. I had a student who always started playing the piano by flattening her hands on the white keys and “feeling” the black keys in between her fingers. This girl is Ausbergers after learning a little about sensory issues and Ausbergers, I realized that feeling the cool keys on her hands was very soothing. I give her time to do that at every lesson. No matter how much I cringe at watching those fingers go that flat just before she plays.

I have a student who is very quiet. When she is concentrating she lifts her hands up next to her head and shakes them. She puts her hand back on the keys and before playing shake her fingers next to her head again. It is very strange and it doesn‘t seem like she can control it. I don’t know what it is. I just started her little sister and she does the same thing. Does this ring bell with anyone? They are both very bright and this quirk is something I have to work around but i would like to know more about it.

I had another student who had a visual impairment and could not track visually. He started piano as a therapy for this problem.

Later I had another student that showed the same tracking symptoms. She struggled seeing that the notes went up or down or repeated on the staff. I mentioned the concern to the parents (who were both doctors) and they were delighted to find an answer for why their daughter was having trouble in school. It was a tracking problem. Not ADD or LD (learning disability) as she had been labeled

On my new student form. I ask “Any medical conditions or concerns I should be aware of?” We need to be aware of diabetes, food allergies and siezures just to name a few.

1 3 1 3 5 is perfectly fine.

I don't a see the reason why you should force her to use differnet fingering unless it's neccessary.

But if you REALLY insist, then demonstrate with 13135 and she will play with 24245.

LOL why didn't I think of that

One of the best classes I took in my undergrad years was a course in education called "Psychology of Exceptionality"...the exceptional child in the regular classroom (to teach classroom teachers how to deal with Spec Ed mainstreaming). It focused more on physical and learning disabilities than emotional (or whatever ODD would be classed as), but there were a couple of the things I thought were especially enlightening.

Not only did the prof *lecture* about the effects of these issues on children...she had us all take the tests for the learning disabilities (this is where I found out I had a form of discalcula...after a decade and a half of thinking i was just 'dumb in math')...and she had us do *activities* that simulated what it was like to try to deal with a physical or learning disability...fine motor coordination wearing thick gloves, following verbal directions while the instructor had her back turned and while we were wearing earplugs, reading pages of writing where the letters were jumbled to simulate dyslexia.

It was an amazing learning experience. SHe was a gifted teacher.