Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Wrist weights - you've got to try this!

Who said I'm discounting the importance of that? However, I already know what the tone of a Horowitz or Gilels sounds like. I'm also aware of just how much you have to exaggerate the contrasts between notes within a chord, in order to get that type of tone. What is difficult is to actually produce it.

If the 'just think of the sound and you'll make it' argument stood up, the Dohnanyi exercise where you play a five note chord with four notes quiet and one note loud would be easy. Imagining the sound of a loud fourth finger and four very soft notes around it is easy. If I need to check, I can use two hands to train my ear. That's really very simple. The physical procedure of actually achieving that sound with just one hand most certainly isn't, however. Need anything more be said, to show what a flawed approach that is? If a pianist cannot voice any finger within a chord at will- how they can possibly be saying "if it aint' broke don't fix it". It's fine if you want to sound boring, but shouldn't we be aspiring to something a little more profound than merely playing the right notes in the right order? Thinking of something more profound is not enough, sorry. You also have to make the listener hear it.

Knowing the goal within sound is the beginning. However it is not related to the means that can produce that goal in any particular sense at all. I really can't believe that such an irrational argument is still used. If someone taught a kid to ride a bike by saying, "think of pedalling along without falling off" would anyone regard that as worthwhile advice? Equally, you might as well suggest that all you have to do is think about the idea of a skateboard that can fly and you'll discover the means to produce a back to the future style hoverboard. And you might as well preach that only natural talents should be permitted to play to a high standard. In reality, you don't necessarily have to be a Volodos- who has the talent automatically produce a sound through sheer willpower. However, if you don't learn (or chance upon) the means, you don't get anywhere whatsoever.

I think that's a good point. Mess with the weights, get the sound you want into your ears and then drop the weights but keep the sound.

Nyiregyhazi, I wasn't replying to your post specifically. It just turned up that way. I'm not sure how to post "clean" without a Re attached.

Having said that, I still think what I said works. At least it does for me.

Okay, I see. Would you honestly say there's nothing about your sound that you would like to improve though? Are there no sounds you can imagine but which you cannot make? I really don't think many pianists would honestly be able to say they're entirely happy with the transfer from mind to fingers. That's why most of us hate listening to recordings of ourselves. Because we rarely do make exactly the sounds that we think of. This is why it's so important to learn ways to control the sound better. We should not just settle for something that is merely acceptable- and hope that greater mental aspirations alone will necessarily lead to a magical improvement in what sounds you can produce.

Well, how many of us have Tier One instruments with which we're 100% satisfied? I think it's a rather grey area between our own limitations and those of our pianos, so in either case we do the best with what we've got.

Steven

So if your piano had a broken string, would you just leave it- perhaps visualising the string working as you would like, in the the hope that this might get it working? Or would you take active steps to improve the situation?

My piano's not top rate. However, I know full well that my inability to voice my fourth finger loudly in a chord (while playing every other note pianissimo) cannot be blamed solely on the piano. And it's not my ability to imagine such a sound that is lacking. It's my ability to produce it. I could imagine that sound (which I can produce at the drop of a hat, if I use two hands) for a few hours every day. Or I could continue to work on training my hand to find the movements that might produce it. I wonder which would be most productive?

Guys, I need to put light on some misconceptions. The weights are not used to strengthen weak hands.They are not for exercises. They are not a long term addition to practice so there is little potential for harm. They are a very temporary addition used to create awareness. Muscle tension is a very necessary part of playing beautiful tones but there must be a balance between tension and relaxation.

I have very strong hands for a woman my size but I use too much force and have developed a habit of using too little movement in my wrists, elbows, shoulders and neck. My muscle tension is not from weak muscles. It is a result of decades of playing on a piano with extremely heavy, unresponsive action. According to Bernstein, this habit means I lift the hammers too quickly on a well regulated piano, like my new Steinway, which creates a harsh tone. I was unaware of this rigidity and I was unaware that I was tensing up and not using the weight of my arms behind my playing. I was, for the most part, playing only with my very strong and fast fingers. When I moved to my Steinway and got a new teacher, I learned that I was actually making myself work harder than I needed to out of decades of habit. I was stunned at the difference in tone that my teacher achieved on the very same piano I had just played. The weights are illustrating for me what arm weight (relaxed joints) sounds like. They are also making me more aware of muscle tension in my shoulders.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

That is precisely what I am talking about. Right again. But even if you don't have a problem like ProdigalPianist and I do, you should experiment with the weights just to see how it changes your tone. You may be very surprised.

I'm continuing to read Bernstein's book and I'm finding, once you get past the introductory philosphy, it's chock full of very specific ways to analyze your playing, practice and problem solve.

I see the point, certainly. A friend recently showed me a similar thing, by resting on my hand while I was playing. You certainly feel what's it's like to sink into the fingers without a 'fast' finger aspect. However, I wouldn't rule out finger support as being an major issue too. That's not necessarily quite the same as seeking strength, but extra weight to support will certainly train fingers to line up more solidly, without collapsing. We're not talking about having muscles like Arnie, but strength is certainly a component. This is probably what Neuhaus was looking for, when he would rest on his students hands while they played. He was heavily into the stable 'arch'. Wrist weights are basically an exact equivalent to this teaching process. Think of Gilels and Richter. They had enormous strength in those hands- so much strength that they scarcely had to exert themselves when playing. This almost certainly was a major factor in the beauty of tone they could produce.

Of course I would fix a broken string, as I think anyone would. But a quest for, say, "perfect" regulation and voicing would be a vain pursuit.

It's not a perfect world. Even if we had perfect technique, we would still be limited by the imperfections of our instrument (to say nothing of other variables like mood, energy level ... or even the urge to sneeze, losing your place in the score, your cat jumping in your lap, etc.).

Steven

Fair point. I'm sure even Volodos doesn't sound exactly as he intends to. However, the point is simply that if you start telling yourself that there's nothing to fix in your playing, you stop progressing. If you can think of a sound but can't produce it, it's time to stop worrying about that which you are perfectly capable of imagining and start looking for the MEANS by which you might get the two to match up.

I'm afraid you don't see it. It has nothing to do with too little finger support. It has to do with too strong and rapid a finger strike. I've got tons of finger support and strength.

Imagine developing your technique as a youngster and then continuing for 4+ decades on a piano that you couldn't get a sound out of without extra effort. It would make you very strong and fast because you would be habitually compensating for the poor regulation. Moving to a piano with lighter more responsive action would feel wonderful but years and years of old habits would have to be overcome. It's akin to taking off a 50 backpack. You walk awkwardly for a few moments because your legs are used to more resistance, but you only have the backpack on for a few hours so you quickly adjust. I have many thousands of hours of practice time on the old clunker to overcome. Also, no one ever commented that I was not moving my adjacent joints enough. The result has been a harsher tone than I would like.

The weights are simply creating a better awareness of the sound I can potentially make if I ease up those joints and change my fingerstrike.

Deborah I think it makes perfect sense. What you are describing is a tool something that can be used to learn what it feels like to play properly with arm weight. I think people who have played this way since they were beginners maybe don't understand how hard it is to unlearn & correct a life-long habit like being a finger weight player. The first thing you have to do is become aware of how it feels to do it right. Arm weights are a useful tool for this. I had a similar problem until a teacher worked with me to fix it.

Wish I'd thought of the weights (or heard about it). Interesting !

How heavy are they anyway ?

How did your teacher help you overcome this?

I'm using one pound weights, one on each wrist.

[quote=gooddog]

"I'm afraid you don't see it. It has nothing to do with too little finger support. It has to do with too strong and rapid a finger strike. I've got tons of finger support and strength."

I see that exactly. However you are apparently ruling out the idea that it has anything to do with support? That is not accurate. If there is more weight, there is more to be supported. The fingers need more active support, if they are to avoid collapsing. That's a definable statement of fact, not an opinion.

"It's akin to taking off a 50 backpack. You walk awkwardly for a few moments because your legs are used to more resistance, but you only have the backpack on for a few hours so you quickly adjust."

Precisely. You don't think that your legs have to work harder, to prevent you from collapsing to the ground, when you walk with the backpack on? Well, they do. That's gravity. Your fingers work in an according manner. That's one of the primary reasons why it feels so much easier when you remove that weight. This is exactly what I feel when I practise while resting a little weight on my hand, from my other arm. Start by working a little harder and it's enormously easier when the weight is gone. That's because it gets the muscles working. Sure, the effects can be immediately noticable, but that doesn't mean that no added strength is accumulated in the long run. Indeed, most beginners wouldn't be ready to take that kind of weight. Their joints would likely collapse and they would probably start straining. It takes time to build up the support. It doesn't matter whether you want to refer to that as a form of 'strength' or not, but not many five year olds would be able to support that weight upon their fingers. A strong hand certainly would.

I'm not denying the issue of how it enables you sense what it's like to use weight rather than speed. However, it also introduces a greater force to be stabilised. The fingers take that load on, just as your legs do when you wear a heavy backpack. If the fingers cannot support that weight, physics dictates that neither can they apply it to a key with any efficiency. I'm not seeing why you do not accept that. Why would it feel easier, when you remove the weight, if not because of what the fingers have to support? Removing the weight should introduce MORE effort, if it were solely about the issue of using the arm's weight. Remove the weight and the arm has less weight. That should rationally introduce more requirement of effort, not less. I don't think your explanation quite makes sense.

PS. Try a similar exercise where you lift a finger of one hand and hold the end joint in position with the other hand. Then move it into a key (solely moving it with the other hand, as though someone else were moving it for you). It still surprises me how big the sound is when I do this, with minimal speed or effort. I'm not discounting the notion of arm weight, but that big sound comes from the stability of the finger, not from weight. Even the faintest slackening in the joints of a finger can substantially reduce the energy that reaches the hammers.

I find a very similar change to the sound in both of these exercises. It seems to me that the real constant is the stability of the finger. You can't apply efficient arm-weight through a slack finger, any more than you can play through a piece of foam.

I see what you are saying, but I think the weights are altering my strike speed not conditioning my muscles or affecting stability. I only have them on for a few minutes so it is not possible for them to make a change in my strength. When I take the weights off I am trying to recreate the weighted feeling by relaxing my shoulders/wrists/elbows to create the richer sound I got with the weights on.

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to reiterate what Bernstein said: "Since the weights pulled my arm downward, I instinctively counterbalanced this pull, thus engaging muscles in my arms and fingers that I had never used before. This enabled me to lower each key a little more slowly - a technique for controlling sound." I think strike speed is the key here.

Did you try the exercise I mentioned, that results in a similar feel? You might be surprised at just how much sound comes out, when you hold the last joint of a finger still and tap it into a key. When a friend did this for me, I wa surprised at the enormous sound that came out. I now use the exercise on myself, to feel what it's like to get that huge sound from a supportive finger.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm denying what your saying. I actually agree entirely. I'm just saying that you're only focussing on one aspect of what the weight introduces to the equation.

The weight cannot instantaneously aid strength, but it pushes down on your hand. The keys push back up. More forces act on your hand, helping it stabilise that little bit extra. It's definitely in there, whether you focus on that aspect of the experiment or not.

Fair enough. No I haven't tried what you suggested but I will tomorrow. I've practiced too much today and my forearms are tired for reaching big stretches! I also think my family has had enough of the Brahms I'm working on. If only there was an exercise to make my fingers longer!

"thus engaging muscles in my arms and fingers that I had never used before."

I think this is of key importance (as well as the speed issue- which is indeed a huge thing). Both arms and fingers. It's not about moving from the fingers here, but learning which muscles stabilise, when you simply rest upon a key. You may have strong hands, but it may be that you haven't actively used particular muscles for support. Perhaps if you've had problems, you overworked certain muscles, but also underworked those that merely work in supporting role? Once those start to become activated, it's easier to get them playing a more active role in normal playing. The muscles that steady a finger enough to allow armweight to reach the keys efficiently are not necessarily the same as those that are used in finger-based playing.

Unless I'm wildly mistaken, Neuhaus' exercise (which is basically exactly the same thing) was as much about this support as it was about learning a slow movement. Just look how supportive the hands of Richter and Gilels were. There's nothing flaccid about those fingers, when they weight into a chord. I suspect that this exercise showed them how to do that, without counterproductive clenching coming in. When you feel exactly which muscles are required to balance, you can avoid clenching those that are not relevant.

and he won't.

Would you like to put your money where your mouth and start to actually ignore me please?