I have been having a similar issue that Roxane had with her old piano as described in this thread . It was suggested that it could be that the piano needed regulation or it was possible that it was the design philosophy of the piano.

The "problem" is that I sound very good no matter how I pay on my piano (Estonia 168). It does not make much difference whether I was playing at 60% or at 85%. However, when I play on a Steinway (NY, L, O or B) or even on a friend's Baldwin (5'8"), I get exactly what I put in -- if my technique is off, I sound off but if my technique is right on, I hear it right away. This happens usually when I try to bring out a note in a chord or when judging the timing of my pedal use.

It's not an issue with my piano if notes are played separately or when no sustain pedal is used. There is also no issue with playing ppp or fff -- I get exactly what I put in and it's easy to hear.

My piano's action is very even, the key depth, weight, and the blow distance have been regulated and when I hit the keys one by one, nothing jumps out and everything sounds even to me. My tech has also checked the pedal mechanism and everything is exactly where it should be. My piano is tuned every 2 months.

My piano has a very lovely tone and the Renner action is very precise but I just have been frustrated that I can't hear my short-comings on my piano. I sound good at home but when I go to my lessons, my playing has no presence and it does not sound convincing....

Roxane's solution was to buy another piano but this option is not available to me.

So my question is -- what else should my tech check? Or is it possible that my piano is just a forgiving piano and that's the design philosophy behind it? Thanks!

A couple things occur to me. First, people get very used to the piano they practice on. Right or wrong. You put a lot of time and energy into it and it shapes your playing. So you get on another piano, and it responds differently and it shows you where you are deficient.
Secondly, people get nervous playing in front of other people and this will also show problems, especially on a piano that is not your own.

OK, please don't take offense, but most people are lazy practicers. They are not absolutely purposeful on every note, listening with intention and making sure they know the how and why of every single note. This requires a level of training,discipline and focus that is frankly not very fun and also takes years to develop. The more specific you are in how you want every single note of a piece controlled both in its sound and the technique required to create that sound, the more comfortable you will be playing on different pianos that respond differently.

I don't understand the concept of a piano being "more forgiving" or not showing the faults in one's technique.

I think it's more a question of not being accustomed to a particular piano or the Steinways not being in as good regulation. I don't think it's a sign of bad technique if one has to try harder on a piano one is not used to compared to a piano one plays on often.I think this would be the usual case.

How could a piano be more forgiving?

If there is such a thing I want one!!

You never know how lucky you can be. I play badly and can hear every single problem of intonation and every other kind, too. It never occurred to me to accuse the piano, though.

Kerman hit the snail on the head, as to my piano delinquencies. As they say, "I wept that I had no superior pedaling technique, until I met a man with no feet."

Hi Sophie,

Isn't it just that you have grown into your Estonia?

I have small dislikes in my piano sometimes, depending my mood (as you know) but I do know that I am very used to it's action and pedal etc.. when I play different pianos they feel 'odd' ,when I have my weekly lessons it takes me 10 to 15 minutes to 'switch' to my teachers 'kawai' mode. When I then return home and play I am happy to 'feel' my own piano again...

Keith, thanks for your post. It makes sense to me.

What about this -- I recently discovered that if I record myself (with my Zoom H2), I can better hear the deficiencies from the recordings (still not 100% but better than listening to myself live). But this is just not a very efficient way to practice.

Even world class pros are often given hours to practice on a particular piano before a concert. And since it's almost always a Steinway D that they play on, it's not nearly as difficult as adjusting to a piano from some completely different manufacturer.

Ha ha, I know. Ignorance can be a bliss!




This is what my teacher said also when I first posed this question to him some months ago -- i.e., that it's simply the inherent variation from piano to piano. But when I get home to play my Estonia afte my lesson (with the "improved" technique), my Estonia also sounds better though the difference is not as night-and-day and I have to listen for it to notice the difference.

To me, some pianos are naturally more forgiving and sounds good whether my technique is 60% or 90% on that day. This takes nothing away from Estonia as I think it is a fine make. I used to own a European make that Fine ranked similarly to Estonia and for a short while I had that piano with a recently made Hamburg Steinway and the difference in forgiveness was night and day. The European piano that shall remain nameless is a well-respected brand with top notch components including a full Renner action and hundreds of years of tradition in the piano making behind it. A few great pianists auditioned the piano when it was put on sale and while they all sounded great (some were concert pianists), they didn't sound that differently from me and that points more to the piano than the difference in techniques between theirs and mine as our techniques are miles away.

Edit: Forgot to mention the nameless piano is an almost new piano with action regulated perfectly by a great piano technician (I have seen unsolicited endorsement of this technician on this board before). In other words, there was nothing wrong with that piano - I think it was a case of "it is what it is": well constructed by a great maker with great components, but it is just not naturally as responsive in terms of sounding differently to different touches. I was lucky enough to have come across a fantastic deal on a recently made Hamburg Steinway and bought it even though I still had the other piano. I then used the proceeds from the sale of the other piano on the Hamburg and I have never regretted the decision.

Every piano and you all probably know this already, plays and sounds differently than the next one. Some may have a heavier or lighter touch. Some are in better regulation and tune and are voiced better than the next. This will all make a big difference in how you may be able to play on that particular piano. If you are a concert artist, well, they may be able to better compensate because they are very used to playing on a variety of instruments. Comparing one piano to the next is futile really because what one likes, another may despise. Of course, proper regulation, proper tuning and proper voicing is everything as a final result of power and control.

I think you should take your piano down to the bad part of town and let it hang out with the rough pianos. Maybe you should get it a motorcycle and black leather jacket, tattoos, piercings...

Sophie,

Praise yourself a happy person!

If the above is a bit too good for you you should perhaps consider swopping your 168 with mine?

schwammerl.

Piano's too forgiving? Easily solved - convert the piano to Protestantism.

Isn't the OP talking about toanl range more than anything else? I thought Keith would have suggested this...

So everything else being equal (excellent regulation, voicing and pedals), then it seems that Sophia is talking about the limited tonal variance her piano has in relation to the Steinways or Baldwins she has played. Is this not a possibility? If everything is not equal, as in her original query, what else can be done to give her piano more variance in tone?

Although she may be playing worse on others pianos in front of others she also mentions that she can also play BETTER on them, and this was her observation.

So, perhaps the answer to her question is: Yes, her Estonia is a forgiving piano because it doesn't have as broad of a tonal range as the other instruments she is comparing it to. Maybe this isn't the case with all Estonias, but it can be the case with hers.

There are pianos that are more forgiving for good reasons. When you play them with a controlled and efficient technique, they produce what is expected. There are pianos that are forgiving for bad reasons. They are so limited tonally, that no matter how you play them, everything comes out evenly.
There are pianos that are less forgiving for good reasons. They are super sensitive, and if your technique is not controlled, and your musical purpose clear, they will surprise you. There are pianos that are less forgiving for bad reasons. They sound bad outside of a very narrow window of sound no matter how you play them.

Your piano is too forgiving? My question to you is, how long have the two of you been together? Probably not very long. At the beginning of the relationship, you can do no wrong. Later on, he can do no right.

Very well put, Keith!

Using Keith's outline, is the original poster asking how to make her Estonia from forgiving bad to unforgiving good? We will have to wait for her to confirm...

it's best to have a piano that is a rigid taskmaster (i too own a 168). It will do exactly what it is supposed to.

Try using the 'soft' pedal and maybe using too much sustain pedal if you want your playing to sound blurry.

My unforgiving piano contributes to my future excellence.

(yeah right)

Well, I would guess the OP's Estonia falls into the first of the four categories(especially since it was carefully regulated). So it seems to me that if a piano is more forgiving for good reasons any change from the status quo is not desirable.

If the OP's problem with the Steinway is not do to unfamiliarity, then I would hope the reason is your third category, although I'm not sure if Steinways are usually considered super sensitive unless specially prepared.

Does this make sense?

Interesting since both the OP and Apple have an Estonia 168. One person's too forginving can be another person's taskmaster.

Keith,

Please forgive me (in a good way) for my question.

You sell Estonias. You prep them. Maybe you customize them like some of your other lines, so this should be easy for you.

Upon first play, Estonias have a gorgeous tone. The first time I ever played one I commented to a dealer friend that no piano should sound that pretty. The question is: can you change the tone and the mood to suit the lit? Let's assume for a moment that Sophie's issues go beyond familiarity with an instrument and nervousness when playing for her teacher.

What can you get from an Estonia in terms of tonal manipulation? Can you jolt the mood when you want? Can a note or a phrase be cold and aloof when you want it to? Or is an Estonia inextricably sweet like the girl next door?

Apple - hope you're feeling better.

A big thank-you for everyone that has responded to my inquiry. I really appreciate your time in trying to decipher my piano.

I think my piano is probably forgiving for the good reasons, but I would like it to be unforgiving for the good reasons also because I don't think it is in its current state.



Ha ha. It's been 10 months and my Estonia continues to be forgiving! It does appear that I can do no wrong when playing on my Estonia!

I don't think it can be both. As I see it unforgiving for good reasons is basically just a higher degree of forgiving for good reasons.

Sophie,

I found a thread from Dec. 2008 which deals more or less with the same subject and that is perhaps worth reading?

Some pianos "easier" to play than others?

schwammerl.

Hi Schwammerl, thanks for the link.

While the thread is related and is an interesting discussion, my issue is really that I can't hear on my Estonia what I can hear on the Steinway/Baldwin. I feel that certain habits/techniques I formed while learning on my Estonia do not translate to these pianos while the habits/techniques I formed on the Steinway/Baldwin translate back to the Estonia and actually make my Estonia sound better. I'm beginning to wonder if it's because my Estonia sounds "too" lush and thus interferes with my hearing....(of course, this is just a wild guess from me).

OK, this is somewhat of an anticlimax -- I was practicing on my Yamaha digital piano with fully-weighted keys last night (which I have not used for a while) and realized that I could hear very well (with the headphone on) if I'm playing unevenly or if my pedal timing is off, etc. I suppose it's because the whole thing is a computer so it outputs exactly what I input. Of course the digital piano is no substitute for a real acoustic but it actually is very helpful! Certainly a cheap fix for my problem.

What an interesting twist of event!

Edit: My digital piano is a regular Yamaha YDP-160, nothing fancy.

^^^ SophieM, my Yamaha digital (Grantouch DGT2A) lets me know when my chords are uneven or timing is off, but does not allow me to reproduce nuances in tone based on alteration in touch. So, the digital is useful in a way, but does little for improving my tone production. But hopefully your experience with the digital is more positive!

i kind of get what you saying Sophie.. the Estonia is very lush .. the notes sustain forever.. the decay is practically nonexistent.

However, i find that if i stand up and listen to what i play the clarity is improved 200%. I really haven't tested this on other pianos. I also find if i move the music desk forward what i hear has more 'clarity'.

Totally agree. How's your Hamburg B treating you?

JMO, but I think there is an issue of design philosophy here that you have touched on, and it might possibly be more relevant than Keith's comments about lazy practice habits and stage fright during lessons.

I had a piano in the past that I often stood to play, bad arm angle and all. I wasn't looking for clarity though, just escaping its in-your-face tonal projection.