I practice on the Estonia at home and play another piano when I go to my weekly lessons. So my teacher does not hear what I sound like on the Estonia.

Since I also like cooking I will use a cooking analogy: mix = overall effect and individual ingredient = a single note.

When I make a beef stew, I want to achieve a certain mix of flavors. But I also want to be able to taste the beef, the carrots, the oinons, etc. when I bite into these ingredients. With the Steinway/Baldwin, I get the mix and also can taste the individual ingredients. With the Estonia, I get a different mix (a nice but different mix) but I can't taste the individual ingredients. It's as if the Estonia beef stew had been pureed in a blender so I can no longer taste the separateness of the beef, carrots, onions, etc. I can't make the Estonia beef stew not pureed because it's automatic and while a pureed soup is a nice soup, I don't want it all the time. I want to be able to taste the ingredients separately if I want to. This is what I mean when I say that I can't hear on the Estonia though I can hear easily on the Steinway/Baldwin.

It's like the individual character of the single notes that make up the chords lose their individual characteristic on the Estonia and thus it becomes difficult for me to accent a particular note in this chord.

I felt kind of awkward and I was debating whether to even start this thread at all because I didn't want to be seen as dissing Estonia but I'm truly frustrated and puzzled by this "auto-puree" effect on my piano and just want to know whether this is something that is changeable by a very competent tech.

In the discussion of much of the above, this observation could be in order:

1] people generally make a judgment of tone and touch BEFORE they sit on a piano. Having observed this for many years, it is my conviction that if fallboard labels would not be read, judgements about pianos would often turn out to be very different.

2] A top tech can effect so many differences in a piano, that the very same instrument can leave a very different impression after.

If people would come and visit a dedicated dealer's showroom, they would quickly learn that custom work performed there, would result in different reviews of any one piano at its different stages.

Everybody knows a dedicated dealer can do a good - a very good - or an outstanding - type of preparation on a piano - or none at all.

We also know that each time, one is left with a possibly quite different feeling about the very same instrument at hand.

The advantage we see in a piano like the Estonia as a 'main battleship' fro demanding customers is that it is an extremely well built intrument to begin with and with right service performed, can equal or surpass most other pianos on the market.

From our experience, the very same piano can and sometimes *does* appeal to very different types of tastes this, both in regards sound and feel.

Without trying to make an undue pitch for Estonia, a serious buyer interested in a high quality instrument should ask him/herself how much more he/she is willing to spend to accomplish the ultimate musical/pianistical result for him/herself in the end.

If it was as easy as simply paying twice or three times the price, the whole discussion here would perhaps not even have to be started.

My 2 cents...

Norbert

Perhaps you could donate your Estonia to a nursing home.

My tech really likes my Estonia and thinks the built workmanship is superb. Without a doubt Estonia is a lot of bang for the buck.

I am glad you started this thread Sophie. The biggest problem is no one here who has the expertise to work on your piano has actually heard it in the environment in which it resides. We haven't heard you demonstrate on one piano what you can do and then on the Estonia what you are trying to do.
We work very closely with our Estonia clients. Some are very happy with the pianos with good basic prep and voicing for evenness and others require some fairly interesting approaches to customization that are not for everybody.
I think earlier in the thread you wrote that you generally play/practice with the lid down. This definately restricts the pianos sensitivity regardless of brand. FWIW, serious pianists do a lot ( if not most ) of their practicing on pianos with lids shut, so you are in good company.
As you pursue a solution to your concern, I hope you wont overly fixate on the instrument itself as being a hindrance to your progress.
I guess you need to keep trying to more and more clearly communicate with your technician what you are after. If you can demonsrate to him on another piano, in person, the sounds you can make, this will be better than words. He may or may not be able to help you, someone else might be able to, or you may find that what you are asking for is unreasonable, unrealistic, or even in the wrong direction. Or you may find you need to try other techs with other approaches, or ultimately even get another piano that does what you want. I have seen many situations like this where the problem was the pianist, their technique, their listening etc, but I have also seen these situations where the problem was the piano or the tech.
I am sorry that I am not more help. We do have people ship pianos to us from accross the country so we can give our special attention to them at PianoCraft followed up with us sending our tech to their house to further work on it for the acoustic of the room it is in and for the pianist, but that gets really expensive.

Keith, thank you so much for your post.

All of a sudden it dawned on me -- can this be tuning like in Pique's The Grand Obsession because the frequencies of the tuning for each note cause the notes to kind of melt together?

Turondat, I was at work today and was wondering the end of the day whether or not I should go back to this forum to read your reply. I have to say you didn't disappoint!

I'm thinking to myself yeah, if only I can be more like Turondat and stop being so damn condescending, needlessly picking apart posts to create controversy, and acting like I know it all. I'll try better next time!

I really do enjoy reading your posts- even when you're wrong, they really make for interesting reading. So don't hate me.

The posts that followed our posts have a lot more meaning relevant to the original posters questions. I tried to answer SophieM's question to the best of my ability but in so doing I inadvertently opened a can of worms. (BTW I really did only read the first page of this thread- that's why I responded to piano-tech "Jerry" because I thought his post on page 1 made a lot of sense)

In the end it is always about the music. The great classical composers left behind specific instructions on how they wanted us to treat and bring forth their masterpieces and the wonderful tones, harmonics, melodies, expressions that flow from the music page. They really left behind priceless gifts. If we just follow their instruction we can worry less about the instrument and more about the art.

Good point!!

The great composers at least for the most part, also didn't have the pianos we have today.

Wondering what they would have to say to all this...

Norbert

This thread was about the pianos, not about the music. Despite your rousing salute to the 'music' and your subtle personal comments, you're as out of touch with the topic in this post as you have been in your others here.

The OP's problem was specific and described in detail. She wasn't having a problem understanding what the great composers' notation meant. She was having a problem of executing what she wanted and her teacher wanted on the piano.

To you this is personal and it's all about you. It isn't. Your comments (your can of worms) was really about an unrelated topic. You entered in a belligerent manner. Your insistent attitude was obvious. You never discussed anything. You simply pronounced judgment.

It is up to the OP to decide which posts, which suggestions, and which comments "have a lot more meaning relevant to the original posters [her] questions". Again, it's not about you, and it's not your place to judge.

SophieM, after reading the article on piano placement in the new Piano Buyers guide, and also reading about recent experiences here with finding the best position, I decided to rotate my piano a few days ago – my room is small and square, so it was just a matter of angles, rather than total relocation. I was able to find a position that allowed each individual note to project more evenly from treble to bass. In its original position, the sound was still nice and even across the octaves, but it was more like your pureed beef stew analogy (which I love, btw!), rather than each individual note having its own voice. Compared to my old piano, the new piano is less pureed, if you like, but after shifting it about, each note is now really alive and sparkling – all the beef and carrots and onions are there to be savoured individually and together! I tried many positions and found some angles that made certain ranges overpowering with the effect of making the sound muddy, although it never sounded as pureed as my old piano.

Yesterday, I listened to Bach on my iPod and then played the same on my piano, and I could achieve almost the same clarity I could hear in the recording. I cannot wait for my tech to come out the next time so that together, we can fine-tune the best placement for the piano. Perhaps you could try moving your piano around a bit? I think you might be surprised at what you might be able to achieve.

I will have to read up on the article and try it out this weekend. This is very encouraging! Like you, I can only do minor placement adjustments as I'm very limited by where I can put my piano in my apartment. Glad you liked my stew analogy.

I sincerely am very touched by all the responses and suggestions that my thread has received, so I want to thank everyone here in a separate post. THANK YOU!