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I own a Kawai ES6 and have tried the Yamaha P155. Software Pianos are real nice also. IMO, if you have the budget get the P155(or the Kawai).
A complete solution such as the ES6 or the P155 that is professional will give you a lot of room to develop your talent. Both pianos have on board speakers, which are nice to have. And both are ~45lbs.
Computers have more stringent hardware requirements to get them to perform well with software pianos, and to rely on them makes your setup a lot more cumbersome.
While the SP250 is nice, if you feel you need to use a computer to get the sound you want, then I think it is not the right solution for you.
Both the P155 and ES6 are professional slabs. The P155 uses a single Pedal only. The ES6 has a 3 pedal option although I only have the single one now.

emenelton, it is also possible to purchase a dual-pedal unit for the ES6. This would allow you to extend the functionality of the instrument without being required to invest in the stand and three pedal unit.

Kind regards,
James
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James,
Is this two separate pedals or two together?
-Joel

A masterkeyboard is not at all a synthesizer. A list of master keyboards can be found for instance at
http://www.thomann.de/gb/master_keyboards_up_to_88_keys.html.

Fatar and Doepfer are well respected in this area.

I am only trying to encourage the original poster to keep it simple. When I play the ES6 in the basement my wife told me she thought I was playing my acoustic upstairs.
I have a question about the two pedal unit James. Does it do 1/2 pedaling.
pilgrimjoel: it is two pedals in one housing

link to video of the es6 live the audio quality of the recording is unfortunately bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw-XQIxxAgw

And is the 2-pedal unit heavy enough not to slide around?

pilgrimjoel,

The F-20 is a single unit, with two pedals:



It is reasonably heavy and should not slide too badly, however I suspect this ultimately relies on your playing style, and the floor surface on which the pedal is placed.

emenelton, the F-20 supports half-pedalling on the damper pedal.

Kind regards,
James
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Thanks, even the Kawai single pedal, because it's base is twice as wide as a normal yamaha or roland, doesn't slide around like those(well hardly). It's a lot more stable on the floor.

A philosophy I wholeheartedly agree with. Unfortunately, it's proving hard to find an "all-in-one" unit in my price range, so rather than compromise on any one aspect, I'm keeping open to more complex alternatives.

It turned out there is a Yamaha gallery nearby, and an interesting thing transpired when I stopped by. First, the GH action didn't feel that great. The GH3 felt significantly better, but I was told it didn't come on any reasonably portable model. However all those options are not ideal since I don't like the sound of Yamaha grands, and by extension, that of their digitals. Now, they also had a Roland somebody had traded in. And that one really surprised me. I did not like the action at first touch - I immediately felt what I've heard mentioned around the forum, that the keys bottom out too hard. But the more I played on it, the more it came to life, and while the keys did not feel any kinder after a few minutes, I did feel compelled to put some effort into getting used to them, that's how musical and responsive the instrument felt! I was even inspired to play the Aria from the Goldberg Variations (one of my test pieces) using the harpsichord track (horrendous, btw), a thing that hadn't even crossed my mind until then, shows just how fun the instrument was. That was the Roland KR5.

Now, looking at the specs, I see it has a "progressive hammer action". If the PHA II of the PF-7 is the newer version, I will definitely want to give that one a try. It seems strange, though, that the PF-4 didn't have a similar effect, even though the quality of the sound (through headphones) could not have been better on the KR5.
I am still concerned about the rather uncomfortable feel of the keys hitting the bottom, but hopefully I'll get a chance to figure out if I can live with it when that first dealer gets the FP-7 back in stock. I've read that the FP-7 has decent sound, so it could turn out to be the all-in-one unit for me.

Edit. But not to narrow my options, if anybody knows of a dealer that carries Kawai in the Toronto area, I'm all ears.

dRummie,

If you are considering an FP-7 then you have a budget to get most of the portable(if not all) digital pianos out there. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

When I tested pianos in Milwaukee the dealer had on display:
P155
EP3Kawai
FP-7
V-Piano
The tone of the V-Piano and the FP-7 were surprisingly similar. I didn't like the FP-7 for two reasons.
1. I didn't want Roland's broad tone.
2. I didn't like the action, if felt shallow and not nice.
I felt the P155 had the best action overall but had only the one sound, which was the bright yamaha sound.

What's good about the Yamaha's sound is this. If your playing piano in any sort of combo, the Yamaha will serve you very well.
The EP3, at first sounded similar brightness wise to the Yamaha, but after a while it started to grow on me. It's a little bit like Pianoteq in that if seems like a real instrument. Kawai has 'modeled components'. What's nice about the ES6 is it has a number of distinctly different piano sounds that are quality: dark(bosendorfer), bright(yamaha), rich(kawai).
While it's not perfect, it's action is not as deep as the P155, I've found it to be a digital piano that is enjoyable to both play and to listen to.

Good luck.

Hi emenelton. My budget is ~1k, but can stretch up a few hundred if necessary. The FP-7 goes for around $2k new, and since I'm considering used instruments as well, I think that my budget can stretch to accommodate one if I decide that this is the one I really want. However, I should say that I'm trying pianos outside my budget, too, just to get a sense of the technology out there. I have never played digital extensively before, so I want to get an indication of what is available at different price levels. I'd like to establish how much I need to pay to get what I want, as well as what I can get for how much I can pay right now.

I tried the P140 at the Yamaha dealer, and didn't like the action on that one. Not to mention the Yamaha sound (this not just on the 140, but the Yamaha grands). As far as I remember, the 155 has the same action, and I expect it will have the same Yamaha sound. I will be playing exclusively solo piano, and almost completely classical, so I'm looking for the combination of action+sound that is most pleasant to my hands and ears.

Of course, I'll be giving all these another visit (or several) before I start excluding any. And still looking for a Kawai dealer.

Thanks for the advice!

On the action question, PHA II and PHA alpha II are different actions. I would not want to claim one is better than the other. You can fly a little faster and lighter on an alpha than you can on the non-alpha. Resistance is greater on a non-alpha. You might say you can dig in more. Which is 'better' is subject to your taste of course. However, in looking at both the FP series and the RD series you will find that the more expensive models: FP7 and RD700GX include the non-alpha and the less expensive models: FP4 and RD300GX include the alpha.

On the comfort level of the Roland PHA II action (which has been beaten to death here on PW), I think your statement is very apt.

"But the more I played on it, the more it came to life, and while the keys did not feel any kinder after a few minutes, I did feel compelled to put some effort into getting used to them, that's how musical and responsive the instrument felt!"

The willingness to adapt to an action that feels foreign depends on what you can get out of it. IMO, what you can get out of the PHA II on an FP7 is considerable if you can vary your touch to suit your expression.

The ability to adapt to the PHA II on the FP7 depends on your technical skills. If you have the necessary finger control to avoid plunging your fingers into the so-called 'hard bottom', you will not have a hard-bottoming sensation.

Some have also noted that the key dip on the FP7 is shallower than many other digitals. This is correct. Again, if you have the finger control to accommodate and adapt and you are rewarded musically by your efforts, it should not be a problem. It took me three visits to a showroom ( a couple of hours of play in total) to decide that the FP7 action worked well for me. IF you have 13 years of classical study, it may take you less time to make up your mind.

BTW, if you are going to continue to audition digitals critically, you will want to have a reference pair of headphones that you carry with you. Either buy or borrow good phones. Do not depend on any that dealers might lend you during your visits.



First of all, a digital piano is a "real instrument". If you are saying that the Yamaha sounds like a Yamaha acoustic, there's a good reason for that. How similar a digital sounds to an acoustic depends on what acoustic your own frame of reference is. There are many many significant variations in the sound of different acoustics.

Secondly, it would be truly surprising if the V sounded like an FP7 since the approach is totally different. The default position of one may remind you of the other (more than of any Yamaha or Kawai), but the similarity would end with the default.

Thirdly, unless I've misread here, the OP is not interested in playing in a combo and cutting through the other instruments. Granted, a Yamaha excels in that situation, but I think the OP's interest is in getting one instrument that will allow him/her to play solo piano classical repertoire. The "broad tone" of the Roland that you don't like may be better suited to his/her purposes. It's all subjective.

turandot

I compared the Kawai modeling to pianoteq. Pianoteq gets praise in the form of, "it's like playing a real instrument". That's because of it being a modeled piano with modeled behaviour, similar to Kawai.
Yamaha's sound seemed like the keys simply switched sounds on and off, and sounds a little static compared to the Kawai, however in trying to keep with the mostly positive tone of the forum I was putting the Yamaha in a good light by extolling it's virtues for combo work - ie: great purity of tone
I didn't say I didn't like Rolands sound, I said I didn't want it.
After playing the V-Piano with headphones, I immediately went to the FP-7 and was surprised at how the sound was the same.
Your views on the action of Roland seemed very good, I was just reporting on my demoing all these keyboards in one setting and my impressions of them. Have you had a chance to sit down at a V-Piano and compare it to the FP-7?

Actually, I'm asking about the difference between the PHA and the PHA II. Unless I've misunderstood something and the PHA isn't actually a different action from both the PHA II and the PHA alpha II.


I've been going around with my Grado 225's. Not ideal for piano, but they suit the task well enough.

Thanks for the great discussion, everyone. It's great to have such an informative start into this new venture.

Emenelton,

Careless reading cause me to miss the EP3 / ES6 references. Sorry for that. But when you refer to Kawai's modeled sound, are you saying that the EP3 and ES6 are modeled pianos...in the sense of Pianoteq and Roland V? I don't believe they are. I believe they are sample-based. Perhaps you're referring to what Kawai callsd Harmonic Imaging or something like that.

I have played a Roland V. It was a while back when the first one arrived locally. I didn't have an FP7 next to it to compare, but I have one at home so the comparison came naturally to me. I brought my own phones with me to demo the V.

No, I don't see much similarity between those two Roland models other than typical dark and warm Roland sound in the default.

From what I understand Kawai's Harmonic Imaging Starts with a single recording per note, converts it to something they call a 3-d image? and then extrapolates the various dynamics, overtones and sympathetic resonance elements from that.
There are sophisticated characteristics that appear as a layer on top of the basic 'note' on the Kawai. When you listen carefully to a note you can hear an overtone element develop and die away, an effect that appears to be uniform across the board.
It gives, IMHO, the Kawai a more lively character than other straight sampled instruments and makes the Kawai seem more like playing a real instrument.

Thanks for the clarification. What I understand in tech terms ain't much (somewhere between low-tech and no-tech), but I think the description you give of Harmonic Imaging is pretty standard stuff in building on a core sample. Judging from a comparison of Yamaha acoustics and digitals, I'd say they probably do less refining, layering, and tweaking than Roland, but I don't think any of the major makers is presenting you with some sort of raw sample. On the other hand, each presents you with what little insight they wish to share with you on their actual process in their own terms. Hence, Harmonic Imaging is brand-speak.

In a pure modeled piano, there is no core sample, so the difference is pretty clear. When I first played a V, I thought surely that buried somewhere was a sampled piano. Apparently I was wrong. Alden Skinner states in Piano Buyer that it is pure modeling.

In terms of Kawai's digital sound, it is not to my taste, and does not sound to me in any way comparable to an acoustic grand. That's a subjective opinion of course, and in no way better than your different opinion.

But do any of them -- excepting perhaps the V -- really sound comparable to an acoustic grand?

Great question, one to which I wouldn't mind hearing a few answers myself, not having played many grands in my life.

I tried a few Kawais the other day. There were three with the lower-end action that felt pretty awful (the first plastic action to actually feel clearly plastic of everything I've tried), and one, a CA61, with the higher-end one. The wooden action felt good, but the sound left me with some questions.

It was a very pretty piano sound - very sweet and musical, but even using headphones, it sounded like this great piano was sounding through some digital device, like a faraway speaker. Now, I realize that it is coming through a digital device.. but this seems more evident in the sound of the Kawais than any others. Is this an artifact of their unique modelling method? Should I have played with the sound settings on the piano more? Is the CA61 just not that great?

Also, all the pianos in the showroom were consoles, and I am considering the ES6. As I understand, all the Kawai digitals have the same sound technology. Is the action on the ES6 (AHAIV-F) significantly different from the AHAIV?

I'd be grateful if someone could offer an opinion on whether the sound can be improved through tinkering and if the AHAIV-F action is worth trying despite my not liking the AHAIV. I'd have to call the dealer to try to arrange to audition an ES6, since there wasn't one in the showroom, but if it's very similar to the ones I've already tried, it's not worth the bother.

While it is true that all KAWAI digital pianos utilise Harmonic Imaging sound technology, the specifications for the main sound hardware differ across the various product ranges.



The CA61 features six different acoustic piano sounds and several options to adjust the tonal character of each voice. Through experimentation, it is possible to configure the instrument somewhat, however the emphasis is typically on offering subtle, rather than dramatic, changes to the sound.

> Is the action on the ES6 (AHAIV-F) significantly different from the AHAIV?

AHA IV-F is KAWAI's most recent plastic key action, and is currently being used in the CN22, CN32, CN42, CL35, ES6, and EP3. The 'F' designation indicates the revision number of the action. Previous generation instruments, such as the CN21, CN31, CN41, CL25, ES4, and EP2, utilise the AHA IV-E action. Mechanically, there is very little to separate the two actions (F / E), however a number of subtle changes were made to the most recent revision that - among other things - improves the weight consistency of the action.

Unfortunately, however, if you were unsatisfied with the action of any of KAWAI's plastic-key instruments (regardless of whether they utilise the 'E' or 'F' revision AHA IV), I believe it is unlikely that you will find the touch of the most recent ES6 to be significantly different, and therefore agreeable.

I hope this information is useful.

Kind regards,
James
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