It depends on the Estonia you are talking about. The concert grand works more like a German Steinway, which is one of, if not the most versatile pianos out there. The smaller Estonias are more versatile than some of the more traditional ( and much more expensive) European pianos, but not as versatile as others. I have read that some people think the very long sustain on Estonias is not always a good thing, and I think they are not correct and jumping to conclusions.
Estonia pianos arrive in comparitively good shape from the factory, but with the right kind of prep, voicing, and yes, even customization, they get better and better. When they are set up really right, they get more and more sensitive and versatile. Estonias can sound so beautiful with very basic prep, and then they are very easily sold, and sold quickly, that sometimes the types of technicians and shops that like to deeply explore what is possible in a piano never get the chance.

that's interesting Keith.. My tuner loves my Estonia and has tuned it about 8 times now. He has done NO regulation and always says it's perfect. He has commented on how it has taken him a while to come to know the piano and find the perfect tuning.. the perfect amount of stretch to make it sparkle but not too much too make it strident. .. and this last time was just exquisite.

I remember one of his tunings was way toooo out there. fortunately it settled down - kind of tuning itself. I don't know how to explain that because it is really very stable.

A couple of months ago, the Steinway concert tech for my part of the world came out and did some regulation, tuning plus minimal voicing on a few notes. The action is now like smooth as silk and it sounds much better too. He did say that my piano room deadened the sound too much and the room is far from ideal, but he did what he could.

Having read the article on "How to make a Piano Room Sound Grand" in Larry Fine's new Piano Buyer book online, I realize now just how awful my room is and how I seem to have broken every rule in room acoustics for pianos! However, unless I move to a new house, the room I have now is what I have to live with. The article also makes me appreciate how important the right room size and treatment is, and my teacher's piano studio is certainly much better set-up than mine – no wonder everything sounds so clear on her Grotrian.

However, since I put my previous piano in my piano room and still found it wanting, and there is a noticeable difference in the same room on the B (before the loving ministrations from the concert tech), the piano was definitely part of the problem.

And while it was relatively easy solving the piano problem, getting a new house will not be...

Turandot,

Technicians, however skilled, have a very limited ability to actually CHANGE THE TONE of a piano. They can align the strike point, shave the hammer, needle the hammer, lacquer the hammer, etc.... but these techniques are all meant to bring out the best potential in a given piano. They do not change the piano's basic tone. What they can do is voice a set of hammers up or down make it more bright or more mellow.

Without changing the set of hammers altogether, I do not think a technician could change an Estonia's signature sweetness into a more clinical, colder sound.

Hence the advice people give about 'buy a piano whose tone you LIKE' instead of 'buy a piano you don't like all that much for a great price and spend the rest of your money getting a tech to make it sound like the piano you DO like'...

Justanotherpianist,

And I doubt you are just another BTW!

I'm on the same page with you. Basically I'm even squeamish about voicing because in my experience it seems like each time it's done, the results last a shorter time, and if it gets into the heavy duty stuff, there's the issue of the disappearing felt and the hammer weight. On the strike issue, I think Apple's comment about using the una corda is a fix a lot of players go to when they are not getting clarity. I doubt if the long-range implication for the hammer felt is good though.

I was actually asking Keith about what he calls 'versatility' and I termed the ability to manipulate. A good Steinway (for one example) can sound ugly if you want. Perhaps ugly isn't the perfect word, maybe 'blunt' or 'jolting' is better. As you alter the key velocity, you can change not only the dynamic but the tone. I cannot control this kind of manipulation well, but I have of course noticed it in innumerable concerts by musicians who can. This is the performance aspect I was asking Keith to comment on, and he has. So let me thank you and Keith.

I agree completely with your advice to buy on the basis of what it is, and not what you think it can be.

The Estonia pianos I've played seem to have a more limited tonal range and color palette than Steinways-- very sweet and lovely, but more narrowly defined. However, I have not played any of Keith's so perhaps that might make a difference.

(Turandot and I posted about the same time-- I think we are getting at the same basic point about versatility of tone and ability to manipulate color as a part of musical expression).

After attending Andre Oorebeek's class on voicing, I disagree. A competent technician can change the pianos over all tone, within reason depending on the quality of the piano and quality of the piano hammers of course, increasing or decreasing the power given to the hammer not only in a perfect regulation which controls power but from bringing the power from the lower portion of the hammer to the upper portion. Voicing doesn't just make it louder or softer. Andre did just that by needling the hammers. I've experimented with his technique since then with wonderful results.

Mating the hammers to the strings and strings to the hammers makes a tremendous difference in the sound and tone.

WITHIN REASON of course being the key point here, Jerry. If a technician could change the overall tone of a Yamaha C3 to make it sound just like a Steinway L.... well.....I think people would have stopped buying Steinway L's long ago.

Notice how I didn't say 'voicing only makes it louder or softer'. I said it changes the characteristics of the sound rather than the sound itself.

It's sort of like a great bartender adjusting the seasoning of a drink to taste. He can make your Martini on the drier side, but he can't just snap his fingers and make it into a Cesar.

Sustain is another thing that voicing has no real influence on. When people get their strike point precisely aligned by a patient tech, they THINK the sustain of their piano has improved dramatically. It hasn't-it's just finally been brought to its full potential.

Back to the original topic-
I don't think a piano can be made to be less forgiving by a technician. Certain pianos are more forgiving (Yamaha, NY Steinway, Estonia) than others (Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Bluthner), due to the nature of their design.

Right. We're talking one piano tone verses another. Want a Steinway sound or feel, then buy a Steinway. Want a Kawai sound or feel then buy a Kawai.

Proper hammer shape, proper voicing, giving the the correct power to each hammer and proper regulation can affect the sustain to some degree or another. Even seating strings can change the sweetness of the sound. The flatter a hammer is, the longer it remains in contact with the strings. Therefore, it cuts off sustain. The further off regulation is, you then have less control, power and overall flexibility in what one can do with that piano.

I worked on a Kawai GS-30 about a month ago. Prior to my starting the work, the tone and touch was horrible. It was twangy, buzzing and dull all at once just to mention 3 things wrong out of many. When I was done regulating, filing hammers, seating strings on the bridges and Vbar, tightening plate bolts, leveling strings, mating hammers to the strings and strings to the hammers, tuned and then voiced it, it sounded marvelous if I do say so myself. The customer was astonished as to the significant difference and improvement in the tone and touch. I brought up power. I brought up tonal qualities that were not there before due to neglect and ignorance by previous technicians.

There is a lot that a good technician can do to a piano that many technicians are not capable of doing. Giving a good technician a chance to do what that particular piano is capable of doing can do wonders to it. A higher price tag for the amount of work involved usually follows as well.

this is not the first time that this topic has been brought up... here are two older threads where the owners wanted greater tone variety from their estonias. i think estonia is a good piano - and like other good pianos it has its strengths and its weaknesses. it might just be that tonal variety is not one of its strengths...

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import

Interesting read, ffevhbtwh! Thank you. (BTW, what does ffevhbtwh mean? )

The first article also touched on the ability to bring out a note in a chord. Now it appears that not every performance-grade piano can show this easily though this seems like such an odd concept because even my Yamaha digital piano can do this easily.

I will raise this issue with my tech/tuner at his next visit (in 2 weeks) to see if he can do some magic on it. I remember telling him one time, after he spent an entire day on the regulation/tuning/voicing, that he just made my Estonia sound $30K more expensive and he thought that was very funny -- though he did tune it in the style of a Hamburg Steinway. I know he's very fond of my little Estonia and enjoys a good challenge!

(My teacher recently commented that my playing was sloppy because I was not paying attention in my phrasing and in the proper balancing of the notes ..ouch! It's really because I couldn't hear... This is the kick in the you-know-where I need because I do not ever want to be on the receiving end of this "wrath" again! I have been practicing all weekend on a Steinway because I need to "redeem" myself.)

Thanks, everyone for your help. I have learned a lot. Please feel free to post more if the mood strikes you!

SophieM - does your piano room have hardwood floor or carpet? if hardwood floor, it the piano on a rug? i have decided to take out the rug under the piano and i notice the sound is a bit less forgiving, i.e. if my touch is not right then it sounds harsh - as it should be so that i could ease up on my slamming on the keys haha. i do have several sound absorption panels to control the bass, but the rug was just damping too much of the treble and now without the rug i feel my piano is more demanding. also move the piano more into the room (if possible) makes it sound more true.

I have found that this is more dependent on how well tuned/regulated/voiced a piano is rather than the quality of the piano, though that obviously makes some difference.

ffevhbtw -- thanks for your suggestion. It's interesting how the "other stuff" affects the acoustics so much.

My piano room (a.k.a. my entire apartment minus the kitchen, the bathroom and the clost area) has bamboo flooring (no rug or carpet) and it is a very live room so I always play with the lid down and the hinge thing folded back. My building has concrete walls and floors.

I have not read this whole thread. I did read the first few comments in the beginning when it started a few days ago.

The first thing that crossed my mind was some pianos have dynamic range and some don't.

I have hit notes on pianos that basically gives me 4 basic "colors" Start soft and working up with harder blows till it basically makes no difference in the tone.
I have hit notes that have given me at least 8.

Some pianos have more color variances than others.

Does having less make them more or less forgiving?

I think having less makes them more forgiving.

Sophie, by playing your Estonia with the lid down you've already reduced the dynamic range by several dB. Could that be part of the problem?

The tonal characteristics change dramatically when the lid is up especially with the long prop on. At least this is the case with my 168.

schwammerl.

I haven't read the entire thread but thought I'd make a short comment anyway.

Strikepoint is an obvious adjustment as for finding that sweet spot. It probably does help if the tech/rebilder bored and hung the hammers at a high precision level as for the manufacture specs.

Now voicing definitely is a factor in sustain. If there is a problem or a sustain issue especially within a certain range of the piano,the first thing the veteran tech will do is to chip the string to discern if the sustain issue can be isolated to the hammer. Iv'e had preowned all original Steinway grands whereas if you played them initially,they were deadsville.A major relief come to find out that voicing and regulation was the source of the shortcoming.

I find the premise of this entire thread strange. If one has a high quality piano, and I think Estonia certainly qualiifies, one usually tries to improve by trying to play one's repertoire better and by taking on repertoire of greater difficulty.

I think trying to improve by trying to make the piano less forgiving(especially since the OP said she thinks her piano is more forgiving in a good way)is highly unusual and perhaps not really helpful, at least for most people.

Thanks for your suggestion. I checked this morning and while the piano definitely sounded more "present" with the lid up on the high prop, this does not solve my issue.

Also the Steinways used in my comparison are always played with the lid down/hinged folded back and the Baldwin has the whole lid down with the music desk resting on top of the closed lid, and while they sound a bit muffled, I can still hear easily.




Absolutely! My piano definitely sounds better with the lid up but it's just too loud that way unfortunately.



My sentiments exactly!...until I realized that I couldn't hear what I needed to hear... My Estonia is really a very nice little piano and this is why I'm puzzled by its inability to do something as simple as this.

^^^ Oh, SophieM, only those who have experienced this can appreciate how frustrating it is!

I think this is probably a matter of sustain. The Estonias DO sustain!

To the extreme...if you have access to a digital piano, try a piece that you know with a harpsichord setting. Since the harpsichord has so little sustain, your technical difficulties will be come more apparent and the instrument will seem less forgiving. Now punch up a horn sound that just swells the longer you hold down the note. Or layer a string and piano setting. Play a melody and you feel very expressive and in control.

"...(My teacher recently commented that my playing was sloppy because I was not paying attention in my phrasing and in the proper balancing of the notes ..ouch! It's really because I couldn't hear...)"

Sophie, I've been doing a good bit of reading on performance, teaching, and piano technique lately, and what you said about the skill of listening to the sound while you're immersed in the act of playing, comes up with the teachers and master interpreters again and again... so much so, that it was striking to hear you say the very same thing. We think, "Well of course I heard it, of course I felt it, I was right there," but it's yet another skill. The act of consciously "listening to" what you're hearing is an acquired ability, with its own skill set. And performing it so that someone else can have that inner feeling takes it to a different octave yet.

But, we can't get around what Groot said:

"...the tone and touch was horrible. It was twangy, buzzing and dull all at once just to mention 3 things wrong out of many. When I was done regulating, filing hammers, seating strings on the bridges and Vbar, tightening plate bolts, leveling strings, mating hammers to the strings and strings to the hammers, tuned and then voiced it, it sounded marvelous if I do say so myself. The customer was astonished as to the significant difference and improvement in the tone and touch...

"There is a lot that a good technician can do to a piano that many technicians are not capable of doing. Giving a good technician a chance to do what that particular piano is capable of doing can do wonders to it..."

So we've got a number of ways to come at this problem of "being able to hear it." And finally, there's how the room gives the sound back to you. For finding the best place for the piano, the best way to furnish and treat the acoustic environment, only experiment works. It is just possible that the room is too reflective or too resonant, and that makes it hard to hear the piano's voice, and your own voice, and the composer's voice.

However, the teacher's voice can still drill through...

Not just another pianist,

I guess it just goes to show how subjective it is based on the lit you are inclined to play and the forgiveness you seek, but anyway I would not group Yamaha, NY Steinway, and Estonia together.

To me Kawai (rather than Yamaha) and Estonia have in common the tendency to build a texture of pleasant sound independent of the skill level of the player. Yamaha, OTOH, gives you very little to work with to vary tone even though the dynamic range is superb. If you want to be pretty or interesting throughout a concert or even one long piece of classical lit on a Yamaha, you really really have to work at it. NY Steinway gives you a lush texture, but will sound vastly different in the hands of the top notch player. That player, in the course of a concert, will make it sound like many different pianos. I'd put Petrof in the group with Estonia and Kawai as well. 'Pretty' comes easily and naturally to a Petrof even without a big bass to enhance the texture.

Your other group (Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Bluthner) makes sense to me even though it's really easy to be pretty on a Bosendorfer. I'd add the 'power' pianos like Sauter and Seiler to that group. Bluthner is an especially cruel taskmaster. There's literally nowhere to hide, and it exposes you for what you are.

Hey Turandot,

I don't know if you agree with my above quoting of myself ( well, if you guys didn't know how much i enjoy the sound of my own voice, you are getting a better idea) but if you do agree with it, how would you categorize the pianos you mention in your last post. If you don't agree with my premise, please let me know what is beyond your puny comprehension that I might enlighten you
Just kidding, answer ( or not ) anyway you like.

"please let me know what is beyond your puny comprehension that I might enlighten you"
This is the best course of action for me. As Ori would say, it goes to the design, and the design goes to the intent of the builder. If the builder's intent is to give you pianos that sound "bad outside of a very narrow window of sound no matter how you play them", then I guess you could say that a few piano makers have had success in doing that. I would not be fool enough to supply an example. Yes, that's a chicken s..t response.

I will offer a couple of examples where I feel a little safe. I do feel that Yamaha gives you "what is expected". I don't know if they do it because they don't know any better or because the recipe continues to attract satisfied diners, but for whatever reason, you do get a heaping portion of dynamic range and slim picking of tonal manipulation. Maybe it's all that Matoa. I'm no expert. You tell me.

On the NY Steinway, I do feel that your "they will surprise you" comment fits although I would not describe them as super sensitive.

Beyond that, I would only add that the lit you play will be as big a factor as any in your personal preferences. For example, if you want to put your personal creative stamp on an old classical warhorse composition, you definitely don't want a piano that can only play one way, whether that way is pretty or not.

Now, please show me my errors and enlighten me (and everyone else) with specific examples.

True, although many would be surprised at just how different one Steinway D can be from another.

I may liken it to a car racer. No matter how good you are, if you are to use a car that you have never used before, I do not think you will perform just as satisfactorily. However, if you are in "your" car, no matter how old your car is, it is your car. You know its weaknesses and its strength. You know how its engine sounds. You will definitely perform better in your car.

So true!


No kidding! I for sure had no trouble hearing this one!

Can only agree with Turandot. "Bluthner is an especially cruel taskmaster. There's literally nowhere to hide, and it exposes you for what you are."

When I sit down at my Bluthners I often feel clumsy, but when I have zoomed into the Bluthner tone and touch I can sit a whole day just listening to the tone while playing. Very therapeutic.