I wish I had "problems" like that. Wanna trade?

Turandot,

Great point and this is one of the areas where I think NY Steinway excels-- it gives a player who knows how to use it a huge array of colors and tones to express the music. Sometimes in all the hoo-ha over the Fine groupings I think the basic purpose of the piano as a musical instrument gets lost. Form has become elevated over function to some extent. Yes, fit and finish are important but they are not the be all and end all of a musical instrument-- its ability to allow the player full expression and development of musicality are. And in that regard, Steinway is top notch.

Sophia

Thanks. To be fair to Bluthner, I should have added that if you play the music correctly, it will expose the music for what it is and won't get in the way.

Pianistical, I really miss your posts and threads. I'm sure I'm not the only one here to feel that way. You always approach things through the music. That perspective is getting a bit scarce.

BTW, has anyone see Keith? He promised me an education if I hung myself out to dry. Then he stood me up.

Turandot,

Im still waiting for you to hang yourself out to dry.......you're still all wet regarding that one post

Sophia,

Perhaps two comments as to make things still a bit more complicated.



What is meant exactly with a NY Steinway, a D, C, M, O ...; the same goes with an Estonia, a 168, 190 or concert grand.



I suppose that when turandot refers to a 'top notch player' he sees himself sitting in the audience!
A grand pinao - espeically a concert grand is supposed to project into the audience. The experience you have as a player/pianist might be quite different.
Are you sure that if you are unhappy about not being able to get out of your 168 when playing is not perceived better by the people sitting in the room and listening to your playing?

schwammerl.

You got that right Luc, cheap seats at that!

Keith,

No problem with being all wet, but throw me a towel. I want to be educated!

Well said Jerry.

I think there is a widespread misconception amongst pianists that you can change the tone of a piano by changing the manner in which you strike the key. To me that is just simply impossible with a percussion instrument such as the piano. When it comes to playing the piano, though it does create sound with the help of strings it is in essence played as a percussion instrument (because it is hammers striking strings). The totality of what we do with the piano whether it be striking the keys or our pedaling technique only affects the attack, decay, sustain, release of each individual note. What differentiates a good pianist from a poor one is basically a better controlled technique at all velocities along with excellent phrasing and legato. The idea that the great pianists were able to change the tone of the piano by manipulating the manner in which they struck the keys is pure nonsense. Pianists are no more able to change the tone of their pianos as drummers are able to change the tone of the drums they play by changing the manner in which they strike the drum. In both cases we are simply using hammers or sticks to produce sound. We are neither strumming the strings nor applying a bow to the string. This is not to say that pianos do not have different tonal characteristics when notes are played at different amplitudes- they all do and pianists obviously have control over volume. A good piano will have a broader dynamic range that allows a pianist even greater expression from the loudest notes to the softest ones.

The tone of a piano is simply a function of how the piano is made-whether it be size, choice of materials or construction methods. That's it! Barring any wear and tear and other environmental influences it remains relatively constant. We also know that piano tones can vary just as much within the same make and models as they do between varying brands because there are so many variables that come into play when manufacturing a piano, but that's a good thing and it's what gives each individual piano it's unique voice.

I think the reason why the Sophie likes how her music sounds on her piano is because she likes the tone of her piano. I don't believe though that any piano can hide sloppy playing or poor technique no matter how nice the tone- especially to a trained ear. However, just as most people's complexions can appear more beautiful under good lighting so can any music sound better coming from a piano with a subjectively pleasing tone.

When it comes to a piano being more "forgiving" that really boils down to the quality of the piano action and how often the piano is maintained and regulated. Sophie said she tunes (and I suppose regularly regulates) her piano every 2 months- that's pretty good. When a piano is well regulated the action is EVEN which will ALWAYS result in better playing. The fine motor control needed in playing difficult pieces requires the keyboard touch to be kept at a predictable constant across the keys. Our brain expects the keyboard action to be even or how does it anticipate how much velocity or force to apply with each keystroke? In a poorly regulated piano that's what happens, our brain doesn't no what to expect and our playing begins to sound harsh- applying too much force with some keys and not enough with others. We translate that as a piano being unforgiving. Estonias and Kawais are often regulated well out of the factory and their actions (especially Kawai's MIII) are very good so some may consider them more "forgiving" pianos to play.

Another poster pointed out that Glenn Gould recommended that pianists focus more on the action of the piano rather than the tone. I would have whole heartedly agreed with him. If you are still learning "the art" of the piano (as I am), I think that it is critical that you concern yourself with the ACTION of the piano first and foremost- because it is THIS which will ultimately make you the better pianist not the tone. Tone is an important factor but the tone is something you can always change later with a different piano. I repeat it you are serious about learning the piano, excellent action should be the #1 priority. And this does not always mean you have to buy a very expensive piano. I chose an RX series Kawai for its reputation as having a world class action at a reasonable price for example. Your ability to express yourself, phrase your lines, play with speed and accuracy, legato or staccato, play pianissimo or fortissimo is all dependent upon a good action.

While this makes perfect sense on one level of playing, it does not on another.

The more you advance mastering the instrument [as opposed to simply 'learning' it..] - the more tone gets into play.

Tone is like painting, getting the colours of music, action is holding the brush and be able to do this.

To many pianists I know, touch and tone are inseperable factors, forming an interrelated whole.

Norbert

This was not stated in this thread. It comes up on threads from time to time, but there has been no mention of it here, so no reason for you to attack it with such vehemence.



This has been stated on this thread. However, it was stated that the tonal variation (color) of some pianos is greater than others, not simply that "they all do".



Possible, but not inevitable. Some pianos have an extended dynamic range and fairly narrow tonal range. A change in dynamics alone has expressive possibilities, but is not as interesting without accompanying changes in tonal color.



Poor examples. The tone of a drum does change considerably with different stirke techniques and velocities of strikes. The tone of a violin changes with the angle of attack, the pressure applied, and other technique used in placing the bow on the string. The tone of a strummed guitar has incredible tonal variation since the fingers are applied directly to the vibrating surface, and not simply at one end of a complex mechanical linkage as is the case on a piano.

A Seiler grand was one of the most unforgiving pianos I have played. Its transparency was like playing in a glass house. I will keep my "pleasant sounding despite the dunce playing it" Kawai, thank you very much.

I guess we will never know until someone comes up with a shared definition of what we mean when we say we like the tone of someone's playing...

You may say that the tone of a given piano cannot change based on who is playing and how they are playing, but most listeners would disagree with you vehemently based on their own personal experience.

What should we believe, your dogma or our own senses?

I think it's a characteristic of the Steinway designs and not restricted to only the largest instruments. I certainly hear it in my piano.

Norbert, I agree 100% with what you wrote. Please don't take my post as saying that tone is unimportant. In the purchase of a piano, tone is a critical consideration- just in my opinion second to the action of the piano- if I had to make a choice. As one becomes more advanced there definitely is an interrelationship between piano tone and action that brings out the highest level of expression in the pianist.

As for the other responses I would rather just say your posts actually agree with some of what I was trying to say, but it would be best if we just avoided the debate all together and politely agree to disagree.

But just to show that I am not the only one who apparently "vehemently" believes in this "dogma". Here is a response that one writer gave on the art of playing the piano on this very debate. I happen to agree with his response as well as well as his belief that this "delusion" should continue to be taught in conservatories for the reasons he states: (note this is not copyrighted material)

"Beautiful tone production does not exist on the piano apart from the music. A single note on the violin can be beautiful because it can be controlled and made vibrant as it continues to be sustained: a single note on the piano is just a single note. It might appear agreeable in isolation if it is not too loud and if the pianist does not seem to be thumping it awkwardly.

A "singing" sound on the piano is arrived at by shaping the melody and molding the harmony and the counterpoint: when that is done right, the sound is beautiful, as the harmonies vibrate and the melody has a unified and convincing contour. (This is how one can produce a beautiful sound on a piano which may seem at first to give a sonority that is intractably ugly.) The belief that anything else contributes to a beautiful tone, like "transient" noise (whatever that is), is a delusion. You push a piano key down, and it is louder and softer, and longer and shorter. There is nothing else you can do to an individual note that makes the slightest difference to the music. It is the way the notes are combined by the pianist that makes a beautiful tone. (I would put this last sentence in capitals but it would be vulgar to do so.)

The delusion that a graceful appearance to the movement of the hands influences the tone quality has as much scientific merit as astrology, but it has a psychological and practical value, which explains, probably, how it came about, and why it persists in so many conservatories. If the pianist appears to caress the keyboard, it makes the public think the music is being caressed in the same way that the gestures of the conductor influence the perception of the orchestral sound by the audience. It influences the performer as well: playing with less tension and a more relaxed approach to the keyboard allows greater control for balancing the sound and a greater sense of relaxation in the interpretation of the music.

Claudio Arrau used to wiggle his finger on a long note as if he were producing a vibrato on the violin: physically this did nothing to the mechanism of the piano, but it made the listeners conscious of the long note, as if it were still singing with no decay of sound, and it released the tension in the pianist's arm as well. That is why it is a good idea for piano teachers to continue fostering the delusion. What is disastrous is that most of them continue to emphasize the appearance of a relaxed movement while not stressing how the harmony has to be balanced, and what the acoustics of a piano really mean in terms of each individual score. This has given rise to the frightening and widespread belief that a beautiful sound on the piano is mechanically the same for Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt, Debussy, Stravinsky, and Boulez, whereas each one of these composers needs a different approach to the production of sound."


Charles Rosen NY Times 1999 editorial

[ Also BTW, my first post was a direct response to the first post on this thread by SophieM. I pretty much ignored the rest. She asked if there was a design philosophy in Estonias that made them more "forgiving" for poor technique. I was trying to explain that her playing technique had no effect on whether her Estonia sounded "good, with presence and convincing" but rather it was the tone of the piano itself that she found agreeable. The fact that her playing sounded different on the other pianos she mentioned has more to do with action and regulation rather than those pianos being less "forgiving" on the manner in which they were played- thus I started my post on the relationship between touch and tone. It had nothing to do with starting a debate]

For me, as long as the touch is not extremely heavy or extremely light I would place a greater emphasis on tone if I had to choose. I know by experience playing heavy or light actions I can adjust in a few hours quite well, but I can't really change the tone so it's not possible to adjust there.

Perfectly good rationale Pianoloverus!

jethro:

I really enjoy your posts and the sincerety by which you are doing your search.

May I personally wish you the very best and the hope to end up with an instruemtn that will fulfill all your desires.

Of course it won't find you a wife or make coffee, but I heard somebody in China is working on that end as well....

Norbert

Thanks Norbert and may I say I enjoy yours as well! If you haven't noticed I have made a choice at least for now! But who knows in ten years when I predict I will be finally playing at my best maybe I will be knocking on your door with a boat load of cash!

Edit: and yeah how about those Hailuns!

So you think that they can then? Drummers can certainly change their tone quality. That is absolutely beyond question. The pianist does not control the hammer directly when it strikes the strings (as a drummer controls his stick) but there are definitely physical reasons as to why a hammer might move in different ways, producing different results. I mentioned a couple in the thread about tone.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1254377/How%20can%20one%20note%20have%20better

The idea that there is only a final velocity that can effect the string is an urban myth. There are other factors that can certainly be varied. It has never been conclusively proven either way, but the assumption of a final hammer speed alone is based on simplified physics. The only question is how much of an effect these additional factors can play. I really wish this idea that it is DEFINITELY a mere illusion were not so prevalent. It is not as solid a truth as is widely believed and remains open to various questions. All good pianists create illusions but great pianists may have something else that is not merely an illusion. It cannot be discounted, based on science- because the real science is far more complex than the business about a single speed.

Dear Jethro -- you just have to hear it and you will be a believer! I'm familiar enough with the particular Steinway that I play every week that it can't be explained away by a simple different action/regulation, etc.

Your cited source in NY Times does not appear to take into account that when the sustain pedal is engaged, the strings for other notes also vibrate. If you play an octave (no sustain pedal), say C and C, you hear one mix. When you play the same octave with the sustain pedal engaged, you hear another mix. If you bring out the top note of the octave (withe the sustain pedal engaged), you get another mix. You get yet another mix if you bring out the bottom note of the same octave (also with engaged sustain pedal). So we have at least 4 possibilities here just by playing the same C+C notes.

It's possible that some of the gestures your referred to do nothing but help the pianist psychologically but what's so bad about that? Also sometimes what appears to be fluff and exagerated gestures is simply a more ergonomic way of moving one's arms and fingers to prevent injury because we have to work with (and not against) the joints we have in our arms and fingers.

Nyiregyhazi,

I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. There is a finality to the tone produced ONCE the drum is struck. Whether you wiggle your toes, look cross-eyed, hit the drum with your left hand or your right given the same attack, velocity, stroke or technique the tone produced by the drum will always be the same-all things being equal. Of course if you change the velocity, the angle of attack a different "sound" can be produced. Same for the piano, if you strike the key with a sharper attack or with greater force of course there are going to be tonal variances- all pianos have that ability as do drums. Once the instrument it struck the tone produced is complete. It is the design and construction of the drum that gives it its unique tone as it is for pianos. They are percussion instruments and it IS simple physics. As I said in my first post, these instruments are neither directly strummed or bowed like violins. As pianists we do not have the ability to affect the pianos tone as these musicians have on their instruments, but we do have the ability to express ourselves through extraordinary phrasing, shaping and technique.

SophieM,

I agree 100% with what you wrote, but we're not referring to the same concept. Sustain is a an aspect of playing the piano that we absolutely have control over. In your case, if you engaged the sustain pedal and were able to hit a key with EXACT amplitude/velocity etc.. repeatedly the tone produced by the piano will always be the same whether you wiggle your fingers after you hold the note down or not, whether you struck it with a more relaxed wrist or not, whether you came from a wrist up or wrist down position so long as the "physics" of the strike remain constant the tone produced will always be the same. The manner in which we play (relaxed versus tense), the various positions of the elbow, wrist and hands will affect our ability to express the music but they do not change the inherent tone of the piano simply due to the fact that it is a percussion instrument.

Jethro,

Let's put aside the question of wiggling the fingers, squeezing a key after the strike, all that stuff that many find to be an empty show and others believe to be relevant to tone. As I stated earlier this was not brought up in this thread. There is no reason here to keep harping on it.

I have a simple question for you. Do you believe that no pianos, some pianos, or all pianos respond to a different strike velocity with not only different dynamics (levels of volume), but with variation in the tone (color) as well?

Do you believe that all pianos are equal in this aspect or do you believe that some by their design can produce at different velocities a menu of tonal colors that is varied and predictable enough to be manipulated by an artist player whereas others cannot be manipulated in this way?

I am not talking about anything like flourishes of the fingers, hands, or wrists, finger curl, tension, relaxed position etc. etc.....only a variety in tone that is dependent on the strike velocity.

They always say it is never good to ask why...

Turandot I already answered your questions in my first post.

The tonal variations (however slight some may be) that occur in ALL pianos can be manipulated by anyone who plays the piano. It's called playing the piano. Whether you strike a different key, whether you strike it hard or soft, fast or slow (strike velocity) , whether you depress the damper or not, a different tone will be heard. (I bang a key hard I hear one tone and its overtones and resonant frequencies, I bang a key soft I hear another tone and its overtones and resonant frequencies - I don't think that is in dispute here.) This is simply a property of every piano in existence

Again as I mentioned in my post the totality of what we call piano playing is simply a manipulation of attack, decay, sustain, release. What happens before or after we strike the key is meaningless. Some pianos may have a "richer" tone which may make these tonal variations more apparent, but this does not change the fact that at any given strike velocity the resulting tonal output will always be identical on a percussion instrument such as the piano (all other factors being equal) because TONE is a function of the pianos construction and material. You can manipulate strike velocity but you cannot manipulate the tone!!!

To put it simply an excellent pianist playing the same piece (in the same manner) will ALWAYS make that piece sound better on a piano with a richer more pleasing tone over that played on an inferior piano with a dull tone- because once again tone is a property of the pianos construction not the pianists ability to manipulate it. We here differences in musical tone and harmony that is born out of musical technique and phrasing- it has absolutely nothing to do with a pianist trying to draw out a specific tone with each note he depresses- that's ridiculous! Can you imagine a pianist trying to control the tonal variation of every note played in Beethoven's Appassionata it's nonsense. The pianist is always focusing on overall phrasing and dynamic control not individual strike velocities.

Regarding tone production and singing tone:

Too little emphasis is placed on individual and unique expression and the integration of body and breathing into ones playing. Too much emphasis is placed on the knowledge of how to phrase and play musically correct. Mastering the latter will only make you an incredible good craftsman playing safe. I think there is a great confusion regarding the distinction between artists and craftsmen in general.

IMO there are many celebrated pianists who only have taken it as far as becoming very skillful craftsmen. Why are they celebrated then you may ask. Well, their playing reflect how most of us live our lives. We do not make an art of our living.
The lives of modern men and women are to a great extent fragmented and without meaning. We focus on technical and tangible values. We have lost the connection with underlying currents and focus on the surface. In musical terms the "surface" would be the knowledge of phrasing and how to play musically. Today there are countless talented pianists who play with a singing tone and musically correct, but to me there is still something very unsatisfactory about their playing. On a larger scale the pieces often become fragmented and tiresome to listen to. They seem to lack substance and a natural pulse.

When learning how to play the piano one has to exercise mind over matter to overcome the technical demands and the clumsiness of the body. The mind will in a way discipline the body to its own needs. If one follows this track of development one will become a very skillful craftsman, which of course is not bad. The further development into an artist will only begin when the body conquer back its rights of expression.

I think Rubinstein is a good example of someone who lived his art. He not only played with a full, singing and effortless tone, his playing also made sense from the beginning to the end of the piece. He played with love for the moment and still the piece made sense as a whole. I believe that, through experience, Rubinstein learnt how to play with a personal and unique approach intergrating his whole body including his breathing into his playing. In fact he once said that he played with his bowels.

Turandot,
I also enjoy reading your thoughtful posts.
It is nice to know that my posts also are appreciated (although I may appear biased on some subjects). Maybe I will post with a greater frequency.

What a beautifully stated post, bowels and all.

^^^ Oh, indeed the bowels do affect tone production! If they are full to bursting, there is no way one can play with a beautiful singing tone because all that tension will inevitably translate to the shoulders, arms, elbows, wrists, hands...

I didn't misunderstand. You also said that there is only a single velocity that plays a part. Ironically this is usually claimed to be in the name of science, but it is based on countless simplifications (the assumption that a hammer is perfectly stiff and that the contact between the pianist and hammer is infinitely short). That is definably untrue. Nobody is denying the importance of relativity. However, many people are insisting that inherent tone-quality is impossible. There are various issues that suggest that it should not necessarily be ruled out.

In my opinion, those who believe they are only faking tone are less likely to achieve it well. Those who believe they are both doing the appropriate faking and also aiming to caress the key through a gradual acceleration are more likely to produce a tone that really can be manipulated. Hard attacks could feasibly cause the hammer to vibrate more beore contact with the string.

(no physics is simple- the impact on a drum or piano depends on complex issues, including the amount of bend in a drum stick or hammer, during flight and the amount of time it spends in contact)

Hi Pianistical, its this what you had in mind?

All things are not equal. That's the point!!!! (extra exclamation point added )

Jethro,

I don't know why you keep insisting that what happens before or after the strike is irrelevant. No one here has said that is relevant. Rather than participating in a thread, you are beating your own drum with a mantra that presumes some sort of final authority. Your 'tone' is belligerent and condescending. It also lacks any color.

In some pianos different color is supplied depending on the velocity of the strike. In some pianos this is a bad thing. For example, if you strike a key too hard (it might be in a certain key range or it might be all over the keyboard) the resultant tone will be shrill and unpleasant. Some pianos cannot handle very strong attack and resulting loudness well.

In relatively few pianos color is supplied with a beauty, variety, consistency and predictability to permit the artist player to use it as an expressive tool. All things are not equal. As you yourself have stated here, it depends on "the construction and the material" (construction including design and intent). Your Kawai RX2 "built to a standard and not a price" is not built to the same standard as all other pianos. It is built to a lower standard than some, and to a higher standard than many. It is more forgiving than some, and less forgiving than others.

I don't know what is eating you here. You say that you have answered everyone's questions by supplying a few inappropriate examples of drums and stringed instruments and going on to harp about the excesses of empty bravado in playing attack. That doesn't cut it here. The thread is not about that despite your wishes to turn it in that direction.

Addendum

Availing oneself of the creative tool offered by a menu of changes that accompany velocity strikes is not easy. It is a double-edged sword. If you can’t control it (I personally can’t), your playing may seem more interesting, but at the same time odd in expression.. OTOH, if you play the same piece on a piano that does not offer any change in tone (no color) to accompany change in your dynamics (velocity strike), your playing may seem more controlled and even, but ultimately boring.

To really pull it off, you have to be at the level where playing the notes right from memory, keeping the internal metronome, applying the correct pedaling, minding the accents and basic phrasing are all a given and do not occupy any of your thoughts while you play. At this level the mind is free to use the available color to shape a creative performance. You also need a highly developed sense of touch which avails you of many dynamic (strike) levels on demand. At this level, with a piano in hand that offers a big tonal menu,what you offer will often be a memorable performance for listeners.

Despite the difficulties in performance, it is really easy to check this capability out in any piano. Just use the same routine you might use when you evaluate a piano for possible purchase. Play unisons at as many different velocity levels as you can. Note the character of the tone as you change the velocity. Does the tone change with the volume? Does it change in a way that is unpleasant? Is it shrill when pushed hard? Is it poorly defined when played at a pianissimo? Or does it have a distinct beauty of its own? Check it out in all key ranges? Is the capability consistent through the keyboard? Play triads. If you can do it, try to attack the top, middle, and bottom notes of the triad successively with a stronger velocity. Is that note brought out? Is the effect supported by a different tonal color or simply by volume? This stuff is not rocket science in listening or in isolated application. However, it is a lot to handle in performance unless the artist is at a level where technical challenges are non-existent and feels as one with the music.

William,

If this question was addressed to me I would answer, yes diffentively most pianos respond in a different way to different strike velocity and the subsequent production of a variation in tone (color) production. I understand that also Jethro recognizes this although perhaps not as explicitely.

Now SohieM says:



Then the question is when here teacher says here technique is somewhat sloppy when she performs on here Estonia as compaired to when she is e.g. playing the Steinway if the teacher means he then doens't hear e.g. the shaping of the octaves he expects when playing the Estonia or that he means that from observing here fingering and pedal work he finds here technique is sloppy as compaired to her playing on the Steinway but still hears the shaping?

If the latter supposition is the case, then it would mean that whith a lesser 'technical effort' on the Estonia she is able to produce the same color variation as on e.g. the Steinway where a greater 'technical effort' is required.

schwammerl.