I agree with this - but prefer others to say it....

Norbert

I would stay on the conservative side based on my personal experience with Chinese made musical instruments and say that 3A will be a fair spot if these pianos last another 10 years. By then, it would earn the spot.
For now, 3C seems to be fair. I am sure longevity should be a major factor in LF's book, shouldn't it ?

btw, here is a link of some recording that really show the potential of these Brodmans.
http://www.dailymotion.com/nickspiano-com/video/x5nsbr_brodmann-comparison-of-different-vo_music

Norbert, I can understand professional musicians buying a Brodmann because they are limited to certain price (most musicians have low incomes), and the Brodmann is the best value at that price. It seems that the Brodmann is priced lower than the Yahama or Kawai, so it would be a rational decision to go for a Brodmann vs. those brands, even if those brands were superior.

As for the customer replacing his Steinway, you can't seriously be inferring that the Brodmann is superior to the Steinway. That customer probably just wished to "downsize" to recover the cash value of the Steinway, and realized that a Brodmann was a good enough brand.

And of course, with the short life expectancy of the Brodmann, such customers are simply exchanging long term use for increased performance in the short term.

With all that said, the fact that professionals are choosing the Brodmann is definitely a good sign for the brand. I hope to try one out soon just to satisfy my curiosity.

Besides, just because someone is a pro musician doesn't mean they know the inner workings and can attest to the quality or workmanship of a piano. They can tell that they are happy with the way it plays and sounds, yes.

The Brodmann may be the finest up and coming piano in China, but my Julliard trained piano teacher couldn't tell me or you whether it was well built or designed or crafted. I've been around other pro musicians my whole life and I might even say that in the circles I traveled, the more the artist knew technically about instrument the less artistic they usually were.

That's like a baseball player knowing all about the design, construction and production of his bat. All he knows is whether or not he likes it for crushing balls out of the ballpark.

Who says? Do you also have a crystal ball to go along with your blind devotion to Larry Fine's arbitrary rankings?

Young L.:

I presume you bought the BG187 from Pianoman. Tell them that what you see is not OK, even if the piano sounds fine to you. Although the piano is pretty good value for money, I don't think it means that you should accept what appears to be poor pre-delivery prep and inspection.

I also hope that Pianoman has a decent tech because if they didn't spot that glaringly obvious poorly-fitted fallboard, then my guess is that your piano will require a fair amount of work to get it performing at the level that it is capable of.

FogvilleLad: One of the problems of being in a small piano market like Singapore is that there just aren't many independent, high-quality piano techs to be had. Yes, there are many tuners who can also do basic regulation work, but if you want anything more then the choice narrows considerably (i.e., can count on one hand). You'd think that there is a strong market here for good independent techs, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of pianos sold in Singapore are uprights of Asian origin, and the vast majority of piano owners in Singapore are very poorly educated about pianos in general.

Hi guys

Thanks for all your experties and listening to the recordings...

I surely hope so, and good to know Brodmann has emerged as Tier 3 in the revised ratings.

Here's the story and current situation to give you'll a bigger picture of what's happening:

When I ordered the Brodmann, it most probably came directly from the factory when it was completed. It's not a showroom model and I didn't had the ability to "choose" the exact piano from the showroom.

When it arrived in Singapore it was kept at a warehouse for a few days, from the tech, he said there was no work done on the piano during that period and when it was delivered.

It came quite late by the time it was carried up 6 flights of stairs. It was set-up, and they left and I didn't really inspect that night.

Although before he left, one of his coworkers there delivering mentioned something about cracks to the tech before they left. He (the tech) kept quiet about even when I was puzzled.

After some days I realised the keyboard misfit and the strange markings.

He came for the first tuning about a month ago, and asked him about the fallboard, and he's unsure and never noticed the problem and said he'll check, but hasn't came back to me yet, nor did he say he'll replace or fix it yet.

This was how my Brodmann was delivered.
I'll go visit his store sometime end of this week, as I'm currently in the midst of my school's exam. :rolleyes:

Currently, the overall sound is quite mild, the dynamic range hasn't quite open up yet, but it's kind of a nice switch from my U1 which is by comparison, bright and alittle-brassy.

About the middle-section of the keys on the keyboard have a soft distinct "notch" sound when depressed since the very beginning, audible when I play mp or softer. (sounds kind of when you close the lid of your laptop)

Oh, another minor note is there's some "greyish" spots with small lines about 5cmx5cm at the two sides of the piano, beside where the removable music-desk piece lie, but this is not much of a concern.

Thanks once again.

Dear Young:

Thank you for sharing your experience with us - I just wish my staff would be around the corner to help you.....

We spend about 6-8 hours on each and every Brodmann before delivery which includes 2 tunings, full regulation and voicing.

Luckily, I am blessed to have one of the finest concert techs at our avail -
he is independent, a fabulous pianist himself also liking these pianos!

Unfortunately your piano, nice as it sounds, is perhaps only at 70% of its potential at this time.

Perhaps it would make some sense to invest in one of Singapore's top techs to bring this piano to full potential. It'll pay you back dearly....

You could also then start testing this 'longevity' issue - but you gotta start right...

Also talk to your dealer and tell him your reporting your experience on the internet.

It's amazing what motivates people to do their job right....

Thank you very much again and - best of luck!

Norbert

Young L., [/b] Re the tech situation - Ok, understood.

Your piano has received zero prep. No way is it playing at its full potential. You may have to become more active than most people re getting this piano prepped. You will certainly want the hammers aligned and the strings leveled and rendered. You can watch two good videos on You Tube by Ron Tuner re leveling and rendering. (Rendering is covered in the "stabilizing tuning" video.) Here's a link to his thread on the Tuner-Tech's forum.

Six hours is an acceptable minimum for prep. If you really want your piano concert prepped, here's a link to Keith Kerman's prep regimen thread.

Patience and persistence.

Norbert:

I have a question. Do you think that Young L's piano, straight out of the crate, is representative of the typical quality of pianos coming out of the factory that makes the BG187 for Brodmann?

If the answer to that question is yes, then Pianoman is doing the absolutely wrong thing for Brodmann customers by allowing direct-to-home deliveries. And then making things worse by doing absolutely nothing to the piano after delivery, and passing off glaring defects and poor prep as 'normal'. That actually begs the question of whether or not the dealer has the capability to do that work at all! I know the background of the people who started Pianoman and as far as I know none of them are techs (edit: in the usual sense of the word). One hopes that they've engaged the services of a good tech.

If the answer to my opening question is no, then how on earth did that piano get shipped in the first place? Is Brodmann sending different quality pianos to different markets?

As for your suggestion to hire a tech to make the piano right, why should a Brodmann buyer in Singapore be forced to pay for work that the dealer should have done in the first place? Or are you saying that it is not the dealer's responsibility to deliver the piano in an acceptable condition to begin with?

Actually, Brodmann has a nice recommended prep sheet for after the dealer uncrates the piano. It is one of the many things that show how serious Brodmann is about their pianos.
You can probably contact Brodmann to get a copy of it.

Keith: Shouldn't the dealer be doing this, if they don't already have this prep sheet? And then really doing the prep?

Let's not forget that good dealer prep has unfortunately become the *exception* rather than the rule - alas also over here in North America.

What we hear [and see...] from many immigrant customers originating from South East Asia is, that things are even far worse over there.

For one, it seems that South East Asia customers have been successfully groomed by companies to simply believe that by shopping *brand names* their problems will be alleviated for all times - buy a Mercedes and you never need to change the oil.....

[Don't laugh - I know of cases where this has apparently happened - no offense intended.... ]

When we show the level of work we are doing on pianos to some of our oriental customers,we are often met with some rather incredulous stares.

Including the occasional shriek when taking out the action from a piano -
we now surely *broke* the whole damn thing....

Next comes a little education and demonstration of things - that's usually the time smiles are quickly returned....

I'm sure that others like Keith, Ori,Rich, Alex etc have had same experience, but we also know that this makes all the difference to the people who will own our pianos later...

The other point is that it has become very difficult to get the type of staff capable to bring a piano to its truly full potential - *ANY* piano that is.

What good is it to purchase a Fazioli, if all the tech has been doing before is tuning Sojin uprights in some store around town?

Judging the quality of a piano simply by how it has "come out of crate" is only part of the equation - all guys in this business know that.

We also all know [or should know...] that the final condition and "quality" of any one piano depends on many other important factors as well.

There is a difference in just buying a piano - or buying the same piano from some of the above mentioned people, people who are known for excellence and perfection in their business.

As Keith has pointed out, Brodmann has an extensive list of recommended prepping work for their pianos - in fact most other companies I know do as well.

The problem is that these instructions are hardly ever followed with many dealers, especially in the Orient [honourable exceptions aside... ]doing the bulk of their business by simply shipping out pianos "straight from crate".

Add to this the silly, essentially misleading and utterly self-serving assurance that the customer is actually receiving a "brand new piano" now - and the circle of ever denied service to customer is closed.

Which is the real crux of the problem here, a kind of self-perpetuating type of problem....

Norbert

Norbert:

I could not agree with you more! What you describe is exactly what happens out here, and what I have been hinting at in post after post, and in PMs exchanged with other Singapore PW members.

The angle I am driving at is that with low-cost 'value' pianos the dealer is actually part of the manufacturer's production process. The dealer performs the final prep on the piano that a high-cost low-volume manufacturer would otherwise do in the factory. This is the same situation for high-volume high-cost pianos (the only example of which I can think of is NY Steinway, which are not sold in Asia anyway).

Although good dealer prep is also becoming rarer in your neck of the woods, the fact is that you at least have access to highly-skilled piano techs. Yes they cost money (and are worth every penny) but at least they are available.

Most (and I must emphasize, not all) piano dealers in Singapore (and probably elsewhere in Asia) short-change their customers big time. This is the rule rather than the exception. They almost can't help it because the piano market here is saturated with too many dealers. There are specialty dealers competing with grey market importers competing with music schools offering stenciled pianos.

The dealer of a major Asian manufacturer admitted as much to me over the phone that all they do before delivery is to give the piano a tune and a polish. They instead rely on the manufacturer's good factory QA to produce a piano that is generally acceptable. Of course, the occasional lemon does slip through, but the dealer does not have the tech skills in-house to handle 'mystery' cases. But for other brands (of which Brodmann is just one example), for the dealer to rely on factory QA to deliver an acceptable piano out of the crate is simply asking for trouble.

What 99% of the buyers don't know is that their pianos, even from quality Asian manufacturers, are capable of significantly better performance if prepped and maintained properly. And if 99% of buyers don't know this, then what incentive is there for dealers to put much, if any, effort or resources into pre-delivery prep and on-going maintenance?

A few years ago a local dealer tried to provide some education by running a public seminar with a "what you should know about pianos" theme. One of his competitors that I spoke to poured scorn on his effort and even accused him of faking some demos. This competitor is many many times bigger than that poor dealer, but prospective buyers learn nothing when they visit that competitor's showrooms.

N., [/b]I've seen posts on the "Adult Beginner in Singapore....." thread to the effect that some folks out that way prefer to buy "brand new" - meaning unpacked on their premises. Combine that with the oversaturated market that Digitus described above, and you get a situation where someone like Alvin - the Sauter guy - is almost one of a kind.

This 'straight from the crate' mentality is based on the general misconception that if its straight from the crate then it must be in pristine, perfect condition. That might be a valid expectation if you are buying consumer electronic equipment, or an expensive watch, etc. But it obviously does not apply to pianos, even the ultra-expensive ones. This is the point that most piano buyers just don't get. There is nothing wrong with 'straight from the crate' as long as the dealer then does the necessary prep on-site.

Alvin isn't one of kind, there is at least one other dealership like his, maybe two.

When I was making my decision about which piano to buy, one of the key considerations uppermost in my mind was whether or not the dealer has the technical capability to help me keep in peak condition a very expensive piano that I have to go into debt to pay for. And therefore the final choice was between Sauter and Fazioli. Trying to apply this to purchases of the mass-market or 'value' brands is where it gets to be a problem. I would love to be proved wrong!

Which has been encouraged by the industry for many years.

No moving costs, no prepping, no care - max profits!

Just by this *famous brand*[/b] and your worries will be gone forever!

Really?

Norbert

Which part of the industry encourages this? If most reputable manufacturers provide dealers with prep lists, then it must be the dealers themselves! (OK, not all dealers, but you know what I mean.)

The follow-on implication is that if it is dealers who are perpetuating the "straight from the crate" mentality, then it is also in their interests to ensure that the piano buying public are as ignorant as possible about pianos, how they work, and what it takes to make them perform at their best.

I'd be really disappointed if this really was the case.

While you guys hammer away at the sad state of prep in Singapore, let me ask if there is any chance that something went wrong during the delivery?

from Young L.

Digitus, [/b] Young L might like to know the name of that other dealership. Maybe he could hire their tech to prep his piano.

Maybe but won't know for sure. The dealer said that everything was "normal", so maybe an independent assessment is needed.

I've already PM'd him.

From our own observation there is a definite bias by many Oriental buyers that only something "out of crate" equals "brand new"= desirable.

Where exactly this comes from I don't know: when my wife visits her native Philippines, few pianos there look overly appealing in the stores: there's dust,fingerprints all over and so on.

So there may be something based on a specific shopping experience which makes people prefer buying something "out of crate" - it's not a sinister plan by some companies to shortchange anybody.

In the piano business, this puts however extra onus on dealers to make sure their pianos leave the showroom in best possible condition.

If this is not done - it's also 'their' loss.

Let's not forget it's not only great service for customers - it's smart business.....

Norbert

Digitus, [/b]

Actually it doesn't matter where the "out of crate" mentality comes from or who is encouraging it intentionally or unintentionally.

Maybe it is the piano manufacturers themselves who should better vet their dealers and select those with the ability to prep and maintain the pianos that they sell. What's the point of giving prep sheets merely in the hope that the dealer will use them? Don't the manufacturers care about their reputations? Or is shifting stock out the door to ignorant buyers more important?

Frankly I think we are flogging a horse that is well and truly dead.

Let's keep flogging anyways....it's enlightening...

Norbert

:D You are a rascal you know. Perhaps all this negative exposure for Brodmann might just help get Young L.'s piano seen to properly. The optimist in me hopes that it will. The cynical realist in me says that it won't make any difference, and that Young L. will end up paying an independent tech to do what his dealer has not or is unable to do.

I have a thought: Maybe the attempt at piano education for the public (that I mentioned a few posts back in this thread) failed because the dealer who attempted it was seen as having a vested interest by his competitors. Perhaps piano lovers in Singapore can scrape up enough money each year to hold an annual piano event where:

• We fly in a well-respected and experienced independent tech from North America or Europe to give a workshop on piano basics, in the process showing how much difference basic prep, regulation, tuning and voicing can make to even budget pianos. The tech would also show the work that should/must be done on higher-grade pianos from Fine's Tier 1 and 2. The tech should also demonstrate how different temperaments can make the same piano sound like a completely different instrument. None of the local dealers can say a thing because most of them would not have any techs of at least equivalent skill level to the visiting tech.
• Invite local piano dealers to exhibit and hold sales at the event. The dealers can offer two packages for each instrument, one with basic prep work (i.e., tune and polish) and one with full prep.

Hmmm....

Oh wait. There aren't enough good techs available in Singapore to work for all the dealers and the piano owners who already have pianos and who might want to have their instruments properly cared for.

Double wait. There aren't enough of like-minded people with deep enough pockets to fund such an endeavour.

Oh well, nice idea while it lasted. :p

Digit:

While we're at it - why not give Alvin a call?

He's a wonderful guy and would most likely be very happy to help.

He may even be interested to take on Brodmann himself after...

Norbert

Norbert:

Even as a friend Alvin declined to work on my original K-8 when it developed a mystery double-strike ailment. There were two reasons: (1) the piano was under warranty; (2) he seems to have some sort of understanding with Sauter that his services should be reserved for Sauter customers (of which there quite a number in Singapore). Alvin also teaches piano, so he doesn't have a whole lot of spare time.

Frankly I think Young L. should seek redress through his Brodmann dealer first, and then directly through Brodmann if the dealer declines to do the right thing.

As for Alvin taking on Brodmann, don't know about that one. He has a very strong emotional attachment to Sauter. Also, the experience that he and I had with Brodmann pianos (particularly the uprights) at the Frankfurt Musikmesse in March would certainly be a very difficult hurdle to get over. It was not impressive, to say the least.

Yeah, I know Alvin sells Sauters by the dozens....

If we could do that here in Canada, my emotional attachement to Sauter certainly also be at absolute peak level.

By the way, everybody loves to visit Ulrich....most memorable visits to any factory in Germany by far - oh, the wine in that area there...

In such case, I would still keep Brodmann and throw them in for free.

[I mean the 'uprights'...]

Norbert