Actually I don't think he sells Sauters by the dozen. Especially not when the price of a Sauter M-line upright can buy a BG187 with change left over. Having said that, every shipment that he brings in appears to be pre-sold. It's complicated but many of the Sauters (including two Omegas) that he services date from before Alvin's business Raffles Piano was given the Sauter dealership.

Digitus,[/b] what was your experience with Brodmanns at Musikmesse?

Well, um, like I wrote in my post back in March, the uprights sounded boxy, and adjacent notes had different timbres when played at the same loudness.

The BG187 sounded the same as it did in the showroom in Singapore - pleasant enough tone, but rather limited dynamic range. Struggles to get louder than forte. Same thing that Young L. reported earlier in this thread. Touch was OK.

I put it down to bad or lack of prep for the show. But why a manufacturer would not care about prep at a trade show mystifies me. So I reserve my opinion of Brodmann until I hear and play what a properly prepped instrument sounds and feels like.

Thanks for replying. I've also seen other posts re Brodmanns also not changing timbre as volume changes.

I've played the 6 foot and the 7 foot Brodmanns. The 6 foot seems to keep the same timbre for a wide range of dynamics (mp-f), but the 7 foot (which was actually quite a nice instrument) had more timbral (is that a word?) range.

Interesting. I don't recall if the seven footer was being discussed. (Yes, timbral is a word.)

No, the 7 foot wasn't explicitly stated, but you mentioned other posts about Brodmanns not changing timbre, and I wanted to at least clarify that if one were to assume that you meant all Brodmanns didn't change timbrally, then I've found a difference in the larger model.

It is hard to expect more refined changes of timbre in cases where pianos have not been properly set up and/or voiced to highest possible potential.

In the first place...

Let's not forget that many pianos like Sauters which perform astoundingly well right "out of crate", have first received expert prepping at factory level several times over, all this long before ever being shipped out from factory.

Brodmanns don't get this treatment at their point of origin - nobody can expect them to perform like a Sauter or similiar piano.

However,if and after this type of work is actually performed, the pianos, at least from our own experiece - are performing remarkably well.

Still not as good as a mighty Sauter which is a much better piano all around - but still remarably well...

It is a shame that the Brodmann grands were not set up at best possible level during the Frankfurt fair - I happen to share the sentiment - so Digitus' observations were certainly not out of line.

But once done [Brodmanns use top Abel hammers...] the pianos seem to have enough musical appeal that many top players without a *top budget* are increasingly seeking them out as one of the definitely better alternatives on the market.

Otherwise, we couldn't possibly sell the kind of numbers to these type of people we have been doing and currently are....

Norbert

Well it just serves to reinforce my point that if you buy a 'value' brand (or a NT Steinway) you must be sure that either or dealer can prep the piano properly, or else there is an independent tech available who can do it for you (obviously at a price).

What I'm getting from Norbert's posts is the implication that manufacturers do not require their dealers to prep pianos before delivery. Once the instrument is out the factory door it is up to the dealer to do as much or as little pre-delivery work on the piano. Am I right?

Unfortunately, these 3 pages of posts have done nothing to help Young L. other than tell him that his piano needs a lot of work. The case may also need attending to because what I read suggests that the internal crate bracing could have caused damage to the case on either side of the case above the keyboard.

I hope that he will eventually report back that his dealer has set things right.

Not really.

Brodmann has a printed, quite extensive multi point prepping list, to be ticked off item by item as work is being done on each and every piano.

[I'm sure many other makers also supply something like this to their dealers, Hailun for example, also has it...]

It comes with each and every piano and needs to be done to bring each piano to full potential from day one.

My expressed opions on pianos is that this is actually *done* before deliver - rather than judging pianos without this essential work.

Problem is when dealers don't follow these instructions, problems can and sometimes *do* occur ....

Norbert

Nearly every Asian customer demands their new piano be delivered to their house in the box.
This creates a dilema where the movers must uncrate and remove the packing materials from the delicate inside and outside of the instrument.

The instrument is placed and the movers leave. Now the customer has a raw new piano to show off to his family and friends in its absolutely worse state. The dealers I work for do not want this. They much prefer to uncrate and prep all instruments before delivery. They do not have the trained manpower to coordinate a tech with every delivery. Many outside techs take up to four weeks to fit a service call to their and the customer's schedule. It is more expensive to pay an outside tech rather than a warehouse staff tech to spend time to prep the instrument then the final post-delivery tuning.

Dealers don't want this in-the-box thing. When a sales representative attempts to try to disuade the customer from this demand the customer thinks they are trying to cheat them somehow. Attempts to reeducate the customer are viewed as trickery. It is too easy for the customer to go where they will delivery in the box.

Customers do not understand when you tell them a technician must spend 2-4 hours working on their brand new piano in addition to tuning.

Norbert: You misunderstand me. [Edit: More like, I haven't been clear enough, so see below. ]

Yes, the manufacturers provide dealers with the prep lists. But my question is this: Do any manufacturers make it part of their contractual agreement with their dealers that every piano be prepped according to those prep lists, either before or after physical delivery to the customer's premises?

For example, of all the brands that you carry, how many of those manufacturers say: "Norbert, as our dealer you MUST prep every piano that you sell before (or after) delivery to the customer. If you refuse to do so then I don't want you to be my dealer."

I think the answer is 'no', manufacturers do not demand pre-delivery prep. I surmise this from your posts, the one from Keith, from you and others in other threads, PMs I've received, and phone conversations that I have had with the dealer of a major Asian manufacturer. Please tell me that the answer is actually 'yes'! At least for some manufacturers (which ones?).

This is made worse by the fact that most buyers don't even know that pre-delivery prep is essential, so don't know that they should ask about it, nor demand that the dealer show proof that this prep has been done.

And since buyers are so ignorant, why would dealers bother to eat up margin in prepping pianos beyond a tune and a wipe? I have long suspected that this is the case in Asia, and that this practice is spreading in Europe and North America.

If this really is what's happening, then how do buyers protect themselves? And how do we ensure that the ignorant buyer gets what he paid for, whether he knows it or not?

Is it truly caveat emptor when buying a new piano?

Marty:

That's because these Asian buyers have not been educated about the need for pre-delivery prep. And sometimes when you try to educate them they think you are trying to pull a fast one on them. :rolleyes:

I know it is frustrating, this funny "straight out of the crate must be better" mentality. It is prevalent among Asians, but found also in others.

Young L.

I also have a Brodmann BG187, your photos inspired me to crawl under and take a look again as your photo's did not look the same as I remembered our piano to be. First the serial number of our piano is 187 0001120 and we purchased the piano in Feb 2007. See past posts from 07'. I was right it's not the same the beams on our piano are painted a flat black, but it's clearly a matter of choice the under side of your piano is beautiful too. Our lid closes about the same as your photo but that fit and finish (Consistent seems) is correct for the scale of the opening and purpose, ie it's not meant to be an air tight seal. Your playing is wonderful and your piano sings a wonderful song. Congratulations on your piano and your playing. We have enjoyed our BG187 for 18 months and could not be more pleased with our choice as an early adopter of such a fine instrument. Thanks to all PW for your comments and support.

Thang is exactly right. The fallboard on my Baldwin L fits this way too.

The underside of your piano does not look unfinished, it looks like a "natural" finish, and I think it is beautiful. I have seen the undersides of more expensive pianos that have been painted black without the surfaces being finished, and they are horrible.

Best wishes,
sleepy