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#1263993 - 09/07/09 11:56 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I[...]

One person's easy can be another's very difficult so what people "say" is not very meaningful here. [...]

Plagiarism adds a nice touch, doesn't it? laugh


Edited by Horowitzian (09/07/09 12:59 PM)
Edit Reason: Added link....
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#1264018 - 09/07/09 12:36 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Horowitzian]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19479
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I[...]

One person's easy can be another's very difficult so what people "say" is not very meaningful here. [...]

Plagiarism adds a nice touch, doesn't it? laugh


The idea you call "plagiarism" and then sarcastically post a smiley next to has been expressed countless times at PW, sometimes appropriately and other times IMO inappropriately. It's like saying "the earth isn't flat" is plagiarizing.

Are you still whining because I said I thought the idea was inappropriate in some post you made some days or weeks ago? As I recall, you admitted it was just that you found the poster's question taxing on your patience or something like that.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/07/09 12:39 PM)

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#1264030 - 09/07/09 01:01 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
You did virtually copy what I said....


Edited by Horowitzian (09/07/09 01:04 PM)
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1264038 - 09/07/09 01:11 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Horowitzian]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18153
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
You did virtually copy what I said....


My take on this is that the observation made by both of you amounts to a common "truism" of such universal currency that I think it highly unlikely that there is either copying or plagiarism involved.


Regards,
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#1264052 - 09/07/09 01:25 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: BruceD]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
The earth isn't flat????
OMG!!!

I suppose now you are going to tell me that I can't control the tone of the piano because of "physics"?

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#1264053 - 09/07/09 01:26 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: BruceD]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Who gets to decide when a common observation "expressed countless times" is appropriately or inappropriately made?

Steven
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—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1264056 - 09/07/09 01:29 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Horowitzian]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19479
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
You did virtually copy what I said....


I have no idea of the words you used. It's beyond silly to use the word "plagiarism" here. Even if you were the first person on the planet to express this truism, wouldn't someone be allowed to express it also?

Perhaps PW should run all new posts through "Turn it in.com" or whatever the name of the site teachers use to check and see if a student's paper is a cut and paste job.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/07/09 01:32 PM)

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#1264086 - 09/07/09 02:25 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Philip Lu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 294
Loc: Hacienda Heights, CA
sorry, kbk, I don't agree with your notion of counting.
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#1264111 - 09/07/09 03:25 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: theJourney]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: theJourney
The earth isn't flat????
OMG!!!

I suppose now you are going to tell me that I can't control the tone of the piano because of "physics"?


grin grin grin grin
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1264118 - 09/07/09 03:38 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: theJourney]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6169
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: theJourney

I suppose now you are going to tell me that I can't control the tone of the piano because of "physics"?

Of course you can! A good piano tech can alter the felt on your hammers to a variety of tones. Also, you can record yourself and the purchase a graphic or parametric EQ to alter the tone. laugh
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#1264119 - 09/07/09 03:41 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
The counting's always so poor. Count 9 a bar with the score and listen to this appallingness:

Dave, that's bang out of order!

Poor David Oistrakh. One of the greatest violinists the world has ever known, never learnt to count to 9. He couldn't go beyond 8. His inability to count to 9 completely ruined this special recording made in France, land of Debussy's birth. Several members of the audience were brought to tears. When asked whether it was the emotional impact of Oistrakh's playing that had reduced her to tears, one elderly lady responded, "Mais non, monsieur. I weep for the fact that poor David is unable to count to 9."
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#1264137 - 09/07/09 04:10 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: jazzyprof]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Certainly made me weep (well despair actually), but then maybe I'm the sensitive type.
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#1264187 - 09/07/09 05:38 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: jazzyprof]
NocturneLover Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Dantooine

Quote:

Poor David Oistrakh. One of the greatest violinists the world has ever known, never learnt to count to 9. He couldn't go beyond 8. His inability to count to 9 completely ruined this special recording made in France, land of Debussy's birth. Several members of the audience were brought to tears. When asked whether it was the emotional impact of Oistrakh's playing that had reduced her to tears, one elderly lady responded, "Mais non, monsieur. I weep for the fact that poor David is unable to count to 9."


What the hell? You listen to him pour his heart out on this piece and after the performance all you guys say is, "Sorry bud, you didn't count to 9."
_________________________
"...music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." -Ludwig van Beethoven

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#1264188 - 09/07/09 05:43 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: NocturneLover]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Thomas Lau

Quote:

Poor David Oistrakh. One of the greatest violinists the world has ever known, never learnt to count to 9. He couldn't go beyond 8. His inability to count to 9 completely ruined this special recording made in France, land of Debussy's birth. Several members of the audience were brought to tears. When asked whether it was the emotional impact of Oistrakh's playing that had reduced her to tears, one elderly lady responded, "Mais non, monsieur. I weep for the fact that poor David is unable to count to 9."


What the hell? You listen to him pour his heart out on this piece and after the performance all you guys say is, "Sorry bud, you didn't count to 9."

Thomas, Thomas, it's called irony.
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"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1264226 - 09/07/09 06:56 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6114
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: TonyY
Why is it grade 10 RCM (highest level in piano excluding ARCT diplomas) I was just looking through some pieces that a student of mine could do for grade 10, and came across this.


It is not easy if you want to play it really well, but I didn't know it was 10th grade.
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Music is my best friend.


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#1264231 - 09/07/09 07:07 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: ChopinAddict]
TonyY Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/15/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Originally Posted By: TonyY
Why is it grade 10 RCM (highest level in piano excluding ARCT diplomas) I was just looking through some pieces that a student of mine could do for grade 10, and came across this.


It is not easy if you want to play it really well, but I didn't know it was 10th grade.


Same... I was thinking around grade 8/9 (there is a big leap in technical difficulty and length from 9 to 10)
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#1264247 - 09/07/09 08:07 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: ChopinAddict]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19479
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Originally Posted By: TonyY
Why is it grade 10 RCM (highest level in piano excluding ARCT diplomas) I was just looking through some pieces that a student of mine could do for grade 10, and came across this.


It is not easy if you want to play it really well, but I didn't know it was 10th grade.


I don't the difficulty level of a piece should/would ever be how hard it is to play poorly.

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#1264257 - 09/07/09 08:35 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Horowitzian]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
You did virtually copy what I said....


I never realised that you are personally responsible for the idea that different people find different things challenging. You wouldn't believe how many people have been ripping you off! It must really get you down, knowing how many people continue to stomp about in your patch, all over the world. Unlike these light-fingered frauds, I'll be sure to give you credit via a footnote, in the event that I too should make any future reference to your pioneering observation. Do you also hold legal copyright over such notions as that which states that apparently simple pieces can be highly challengingly interpretatively, or that the real difficulty in classical sonatas lies in the articulation and phrasing? If so, do let us know, so you can take due credit.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (09/07/09 08:46 PM)
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#1264265 - 09/07/09 08:52 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Originally Posted By: TonyY
Why is it grade 10 RCM (highest level in piano excluding ARCT diplomas) I was just looking through some pieces that a student of mine could do for grade 10, and came across this.


It is not easy if you want to play it really well, but I didn't know it was 10th grade.


I don't the difficulty level of a piece should/would ever be how hard it is to play poorly.


In fairness, he didn't suggest that at all. He simply said "if you want to play it really well". That's a fair point. There are a hell of a lot of pianists who can play traumerei to a decent standard, but who don't approach a truly incredible pianist. In a sense, Traumerei really isn't that hard, except to play to an overwhelmingly high standard. The same applies with Clair de Lune. If we're talking about what's required to be outstanind, you could say that ANY piece is hard to play to a truly high standard. In fairness, it is no wiser to judge difficulty from what is required to meet the very highest of standards, compared to what's required to meet a poor standard.
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http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1264284 - 09/07/09 09:44 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I find it hilarious that you object to others (me in this case) acting in the very same way you do; mean and vindictive. In truth, I'm laughing my arse off just now.

As I'm sure you know already, I enjoy tweaking brittle people (those familiar with the Dilbert comics will get that), and that was the whole point. laugh


Edited by Horowitzian (09/07/09 09:46 PM)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1264379 - 09/08/09 02:57 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: NocturneLover]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7913
Originally Posted By: Thomas Lau
This was the song


Not. A. Song.

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#1264381 - 09/08/09 03:15 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: keyboardklutz]
Clayton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 128
Loc: Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
The counting's always so poor. Count 9 a bar with the score and listen to this appallingness:

Dave, that's bang out of order!


Wow. And professional musicians performing for television at that!!

Clayton -
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My listening obsessions:
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Claude Debussy - Cello Sonata
Johannes Brahms - Intermezzo Op. 118 No. 2

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#1264391 - 09/08/09 04:18 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19479
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

In fairness, he didn't suggest that at all. He simply said "if you want to play it really well". That's a fair point. There are a hell of a lot of pianists who can play traumerei to a decent standard, but who don't approach a truly incredible pianist. In a sense, Traumerei really isn't that hard, except to play to an overwhelmingly high standard. The same applies with Clair de Lune. If we're talking about what's required to be outstanind, you could say that ANY piece is hard to play to a truly high standard. In fairness, it is no wiser to judge difficulty from what is required to meet the very highest of standards, compared to what's required to meet a poor standard.


Your wording is basically the same point I was making except I phrased things as a double negative. Any piece becomes harder as one increases the level or performance used as the reference. Since this statement applies to Claire de lune and every other piece it becomes superfluous. It also comes off as sounding like the poster is saying "most of you who play this piece don't really play it very well".


Edited by pianoloverus (09/08/09 04:19 AM)

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#1264394 - 09/08/09 04:32 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: NocturneLover]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Thomas Lau

What the hell? You listen to him pour his heart out on this piece and after the performance all you guys say is, "Sorry bud, you didn't count to 9."
He must have cried all the way to the bank!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1264415 - 09/08/09 06:03 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: keyboardklutz]
NocturneLover Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Dantooine
Hey keyboardklutz,

Now that you've posted the orchestral version with the white bird (stork?) flying under the moonlight, I can't get the images out of my head when playing it.

It actually helps set the mood lol.
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"...music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." -Ludwig van Beethoven

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#1264419 - 09/08/09 06:14 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: NocturneLover]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Thomas Lau
Hey keyboardklutz,

Now that you've posted the orchestral version with the white bird (stork?) flying under the moonlight, I can't get the images out of my head when playing it.

It actually helps set the mood lol.
Hey, why don't you try sitting down with the music and count to 9 while listening to Stowkowski? You might learn something. Incidentally, I don't put his accuracy down to his conducting. I think his musicians would have rebelled if he'd asked them to cut notes short. Oistrakh's pianist was obviously a pushover.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1264433 - 09/08/09 07:00 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: keyboardklutz]
NocturneLover Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Dantooine
Oh I see, right from the beginning he goes way too fast and doesn't sit on the dotted half notes. Yes, I've wondered if the pianist would be the "leader" in terms of beat, but I guess he must have told her beforehand to play a little faster. Maybe he had to go to the bathroom lol.

Actually, I've listened to different versions and many of these professional pianists like to speed things up at the middle of the third page.
_________________________
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#1264438 - 09/08/09 07:08 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: NocturneLover]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Thomas Lau

Actually, I've listened to different versions and many of these professional pianists like to speed things up at the middle of the third page.
That's because it says un poco mosso and en animaut.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1264441 - 09/08/09 07:14 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Horowitzian]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
I find it hilarious that you object to others (me in this case) acting in the very same way you do; mean and vindictive. In truth, I'm laughing my arse off just now.

As I'm sure you know already, I enjoy tweaking brittle people (those familiar with the Dilbert comics will get that), and that was the whole point. laugh


Sounds to me like somebody must have "tweaked" you pretty damn well, judging from the accusatory tone of your post. Anyhow, perhaps the difference between us is that I don't make unsupportable arguments (like claiming the notion of difficult being subjective as my own) purely for the sake of being mean and vindictive?


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (09/08/09 07:37 AM)
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#1264448 - 09/08/09 07:33 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

In fairness, he didn't suggest that at all. He simply said "if you want to play it really well". That's a fair point. There are a hell of a lot of pianists who can play traumerei to a decent standard, but who don't approach a truly incredible pianist. In a sense, Traumerei really isn't that hard, except to play to an overwhelmingly high standard. The same applies with Clair de Lune. If we're talking about what's required to be outstanind, you could say that ANY piece is hard to play to a truly high standard. In fairness, it is no wiser to judge difficulty from what is required to meet the very highest of standards, compared to what's required to meet a poor standard.


Your wording is basically the same point I was making except I phrased things as a double negative. Any piece becomes harder as one increases the level or performance used as the reference. Since this statement applies to Claire de lune and every other piece it becomes superfluous. It also comes off as sounding like the poster is saying "most of you who play this piece don't really play it very well".


There is quite a vital distinction though. You said that you shouldn't judge a piece on how easy it is to play poorly? While that is correct, I don't think anyone would ever have argued that, and I certainly don't think the poster who you responded to was suggesting it. Difficulty ought to be judged on how easy or hard it is to give a musically satisfying performance. If you consider the fact that the very best performances are difficult for any piece, to be superfluous why were you pointing out something so obvious as the fact that to play a piece badly is not hard? That clearly was not what the poster was alluding to. I'm also not clear what should come across as saying that "most of you don't play it well"? Frankly, I haven't the faintest idea what might raise that implication. If anyone sees the fact that the greatest pianists generally play better than them as an insult, I think that's something for them to work on with their counsellor.

Conversely, responding to that poster with a "superfluous" statement that you shouldn't judge a piece from how easy it is to play badly came across as being greatly accusative. He simply pointed out that you shouldn't judge difficulty from the absolute highest standard of performance. Leaping to such an extreme counter-example (and presenting it as though he might have been suggesting that sloppy performances are the better yardstick) struck me as a rather hefty implication of assault upon that poster's personal standards.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (09/08/09 07:50 AM)
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