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#1264452 - 09/08/09 07:46 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19332
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

He simply pointed out that you shouldn't judge difficulty from the absolute highest standard of performance.


He said: "It is not easy if you want to play it really well".
This seems to imply one should/could use a high standard.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/08/09 07:50 AM)

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#1264453 - 09/08/09 08:00 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

He simply pointed out that you shouldn't judge difficulty from the absolute highest standard of performance.


He said: "It is not easy if you want to play it really well".
This seems to imply one should/could use a high standard.


Does it? It seems to imply that one could use a high standard if one WANTS to. Is even that too elitist for you? I see that I was guilty of paraphrasing his words rather indirectly, but I believe that his point was that the level of difficulty is relative to what level of result you are hoping for. Not that everyone MUST play it to a high standard.

I'm really confused now- you followed up by pointing out that you shouldn't judge it from how hard it is to play badly? That sounds far more based upon high ideals, than simply pointing out that it's hard to play extremely well? I was under the impression that you were more troubled by his reference to those students who might get through the notes (but not play so well musically)?

I'm really not following why you are both complaining about overly high standards yet simultaneusly stressing that those who play a piece badly are not a good way of gauging difficulty? What is your own point of judgement then? The impression is starting to come across that, contrary to what you said before, you do think that giving a less than musically refined performance is a reasonable yardstick of difficulty? Could you just clarify, as I'm not following what you're trying to say? One moment you seem to be bothered by the idea of people judging difficulty from inadequately high standards, the next you seem to feel that pointing out that it's difficult to play Clair de lune really well constitutes a slight upon your own standards?


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (09/08/09 08:10 AM)
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#1264454 - 09/08/09 08:07 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19332
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
I see that I was guilty of paraphrasing his words rather indirectly, but I believe that his point was that the level of difficulty is relative to what level of result you are hoping for.

I thought that was his point also.

I purposely used the word "could" in my last post to imply "if one wants to".

I don't think when educators rate a piece's difficulty they are using a very low or a very high standard. Somewhere in the middle. If someone rated Claire de lune on a 1-10 scale and gave it an 8, then I don't think they mean the difficulty of playing this piece like some world class pianist is an 8.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/08/09 08:22 AM)

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#1264458 - 09/08/09 08:20 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: pianoloverus]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I purposely used the word "could" to imply "if one wants to".

I don't think when educators rate a piece's difficulty they are using a very low or a very high standard. Somewhere in the middle. If someone rated Claire de lune on a 1-10 scale and gave it an 8, then I don't think they mean the difficulty of playing this piece like some world class pianist is an 8.


and the word "should"? Is that also a reference to personal choice? If you felt his statement was boldy judgemental, I'm not seeing how. However, I'd happily chip in myself to say that most students do play Clair de Lune pretty woefully, without much understanding or control over the real difficulties. If those students are happy to play the notes accurately, that's fine for them to settle for that. However, it doesn't mean they have actually conquered the true difficulties. To master them to the level of a Horowitz might be unrealistic. However, to have the ability to distinguish adequately between melody and acconpaniment (which one rarely hears) IS an inherent difficulty of the piece that should always be factored into any assessments of how challenging it might be. That's not about lofty standards. A student who cannot illustrate layering between the parts has simply not covered the difficulties. If anyone takes that as a slight upon them, that's tough. These things are not easy, but if they are not achieved, the piece has not been played properly (any more than a Bach invention that has various notes missing).

Okay, I'm totally with you on the 2nd paragraph. Perhaps I misread your intent before, but I was rather confused by why you felt the need to make the obvious point that to play a piece badly is not difficult. There are differing levels of attainment at the top end, but the only basis for difficulty is the point where all the necessary difficulties of voicing and control ARE mastered, as opposed to ignored. I believe that by 'really well' he was probably referring to such things- rather than actually playing with the interpretative mastery of a Rubinstein or Gilels.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (09/08/09 09:00 AM)
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#1998869 - 12/13/12 10:59 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: nanabush]
CG/Teacher Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2
All syllabi have errors. Errata sheets issued by RCM, BCCM, CC and ABRSM are evident of this.
The syllabus accurately lists grading of repertoire and studies independent of other syllabi presenting an alternative to current offerings within Canada.

The BCCM was started in 1986. The issue with the unprofessional RCM examiner which occurred around 2007, did not involve anyone from BCCM. It was an RCM issue and I'm
sure it was dealt with in a professional manner.

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#1998882 - 12/13/12 11:23 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 375
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: TonyY
Thanks everyone for the answers, they are all very helpful. (especially Horowitzian)

Sotto Voce, I reckon you are from the U.S and is probably and only familiar with the ABRSM system. Well, many say that Grade 10 RCM is similar to Grade 8 ABRSM, the Repertoire, technical requirements, aural, and sight-reading. The only difference is that there are 5 repertoire pieces instead of three. This is a Grade 10 syllabus similar to the RCM syllabus: http://www.bccmexaminations.ca/downloads/grade10.pdf


ABRSM is British


http://gb.abrsm.org/en/home

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#1998891 - 12/13/12 11:38 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
BDB Online   content
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Posts: 21511
Loc: Oakland
Another zombie arises from the dead!
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#1998892 - 12/13/12 11:38 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
ju5t1n-h Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 179
Loc: Vancouver, British Columbia
Clair de Lune is certainly not easy. It is an extremely difficult and intricate piece to play. The tempo may be slow, but because of chords used, the fingering, the timing, the touch, the tempo and the rhythm used to play the piece well, you would need to be an experienced pianist.

Its like saying that Fur Elise is simple... but thats a grade 7 piece butchered worldwide by any newbie wanting to learn the piano, but to play it well, you would need to have the skills of the appropriate level to play it correctly.
_________________________
Essex EUP-123S


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#1998976 - 12/13/12 01:50 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Loads of people play this piece badly without realising they are. Perhaps this is why it has a reputation for being easy. Mind you, most Grade 7/8/whatever pieces are played badly most of the time. Actually I think it's quite a hard piece.

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#1998997 - 12/13/12 02:46 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Bluoh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 421
Loc: Canada
It's one of the "easier" grade 10 pieces from the list of selections.

Of course, this is different for everyone, but I remember that I couldn't purchase additional sheet music for Gitanerias (my original piece) because it was out of print everywhere, and it was about two months before my exam.
I ended up 'perfecting' Au Clair de Lune with a couple weeks to spare, but I found the sheet music for the other piece online, so I was able to play that for the exam. (Thank goodness!)

Personally, although Clair de Lune isn't my favourite piece, that type of piece comes a bit more naturally to me than Mozart-- Mozart's 'carefree', 'conversational' tone takes me a bit more work.

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#1999257 - 12/14/12 04:02 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: slipperykeys]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7839
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: TonyY
Thanks everyone for the answers, they are all very helpful. (especially Horowitzian)

Sotto Voce, I reckon you are from the U.S and is probably and only familiar with the ABRSM system. Well, many say that Grade 10 RCM is similar to Grade 8 ABRSM, the Repertoire, technical requirements, aural, and sight-reading. The only difference is that there are 5 repertoire pieces instead of three. This is a Grade 10 syllabus similar to the RCM syllabus: http://www.bccmexaminations.ca/downloads/grade10.pdf


ABRSM is British


http://gb.abrsm.org/en/home


You are responding to someone who hasn't posted anything here in over two years. My guess is that he won't see it.

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#1999375 - 12/14/12 11:21 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: wr]
ju5t1n-h Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 179
Loc: Vancouver, British Columbia
Originally Posted By: wr


You are responding to someone who hasn't posted anything here in over two years. My guess is that he won't see it.



haha i think we missed that! good catch
_________________________
Essex EUP-123S


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#1999864 - 12/15/12 02:42 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Birgitte Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 11
Loc: Norway
I just played Clair de Lune for my midterm exam. What I experienced was that it is not only about pressing the right tones. Half of the playing is about getting the right emotions through and letting "the moon tones" shine.

As my piano teacher says: "There are a lot of levels when playing clair de lune, from those versions that are correctly played to those that gives you goosebumps"

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#2151770 - 09/17/13 01:22 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
The right hand melody has to be brought out and the accompaniment parts are to be played substantially softer. The timing is not to me metronomic nor is the melody to be perfectly synchronized with the accompaniment .

By the way, which edition has the best fingering suggestions?

I have to say that anybody who says David Oisterach's interpretation has bad timing doesn't know much about music.

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#2151771 - 09/17/13 01:23 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: keyboardklutz]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
The counting's always so poor. Count 9 a bar with the score and listen to this appallingness:

Dave, that's bang out of order!




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#2151775 - 09/17/13 01:34 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
This thread is four years old, and has not been posted in for almost a year. It has already been revived from the dead once, as BDB pointed out a year ago after someone had awoken it from a three-year sleep. Why did it have to be revived again?

Next step is to stop posting in it and remember to revive it for a third time in 2015.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2151833 - 09/17/13 03:16 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Polyphonist]
Michael Sayers Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1125
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
This thread is four years old, and has not been posted in for almost a year. It has already been revived from the dead once, as BDB pointed out a year ago after someone had awoken it from a three-year sleep. Why did it have to be revived again?

Next step is to stop posting in it and remember to revive it for a third time in 2015.


I've marked it for August 22 of that year on my calendar!


M.

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#2151840 - 09/17/13 03:36 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
So ... 4 years old ... now all together
"Happy Birthday to You, Happy Birthday to You".

For those you have been jabberwocked by Clair de Lune
for the first time, might I just say 'you're on the money".

Clair de Lune
Debussy

A piece of cake! ... no civilized pianist ought to step out of swaddling clothes without learning to play this masterpiece.

The first 26 measures are easy-going Andante, but from m27
(un poco messo) the pace livens ... but slackens at the Calmato to reintroduce the opening theme ... and then closes with an ethereal flight into the top registers of the piano. (I’m a poet, and I don’t know it! ... easy on the applause!)

Don’t be a peasant, chaps ... without this Moonlight gem you will be wearing “sackcloth and ashes” until you venture perhaps “The Girl with The Flaxen Hair”.

However, my favourite Debussy is La Mer ... wouldn’t swop
my recording by the mighty Toscanini for a wagon-load of
Spanish Doubloons.

regards, btb

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#2151914 - 09/17/13 07:07 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
First of all, the grading system isn't always right. (You can see A LOT of examples showing it.)
Claire de Lune is technically pretty easy, but like all debussy works, it's demanding musically. It's easy to play, not to perform.
(Though when compared to the rest of Suite Bergamasque it's easier in any way.)
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2151984 - 09/17/13 09:29 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Having just relearned this piece - there are so many subtleties and nuances that can be ruined by timing, dynamics, tempo, etc. Sure the notes are not that hard to learn (there are a few tricky parts though), but to actually make this piece coherent as a whole is no easy feat. The rubato section starting with the low Eb octave, through the buildup to the appearance of the second theme is one of the most perfectly written passages in music, and it is VERY easy to rush through or play too loud too fast.

There are so many moments that require great control, like bringing down the energy to the "Calmato" section, and also the reprise of the first theme. An effective performance of this piece is very difficult to achieve, and especially so since it is "overplayed." But when it's played properly, boy I can't think of a more perfect and beautifully written piece of music.



Edited by didyougethathing (09/17/13 09:30 AM)

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#2152226 - 09/17/13 02:36 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: debrucey]
Louis Podesta Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 722
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Loads of people play this piece badly without realising they are. Perhaps this is why it has a reputation for being easy. Mind you, most Grade 7/8/whatever pieces are played badly most of the time. Actually I think it's quite a hard piece.


Very well said.

As proof, I list the following link to a recording of the only American to ever study this piece under the composer, and the first one to play it in public in this country.

If you listen very closely you can hear the arpeggiation and also the asynchronization. This recording was a major inspiration in my news story video.

In addition, it has lead me to a friendship with the only living student of the performer, the composer Ramon Sender, who has verified everything in my video regarding Debussy.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBweTHrOwEU

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#2152242 - 09/17/13 03:07 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Loads of people play this piece badly without realising they are. Perhaps this is why it has a reputation for being easy. Mind you, most Grade 7/8/whatever pieces are played badly most of the time. Actually I think it's quite a hard piece.


Very well said.

As proof, I list the following link to a recording of the only American to ever study this piece under the composer, and the first one to play it in public in this country.

If you listen very closely you can hear the arpeggiation and also the asynchronization. This recording was a major inspiration in my news story video.

In addition, it has lead me to a friendship with the only living student of the performer, the composer Ramon Sender, who has verified everything in my video regarding Debussy.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBweTHrOwEU


So funny, before I toggled this post I bet myself $100 that it will be about arpeggiation AND will include a youtube video link.

I win! laugh
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2152261 - 09/17/13 03:32 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Louis Podesta Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 722
What the video was intended to show, as correctly referenced in the quote, is that everybody plays this piece, and most everybody plays it wrong. They always romanticize it, they usually play it too slow, and the voicing is all over the place.

Come to think of it, that is usually the way most people play Debussy anyway.

If you can present any evidence of another way to play this piece, other than your OPINION, please feel free to enlighten us. This particular performer was entrusted by the composer on several occasions to premier certain of his works.

That is way more good enough for me!

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#2152290 - 09/17/13 04:19 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Pogorelich.]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Loads of people play this piece badly without realising they are. Perhaps this is why it has a reputation for being easy. Mind you, most Grade 7/8/whatever pieces are played badly most of the time. Actually I think it's quite a hard piece.


Very well said.

As proof, I list the following link to a recording of the only American to ever study this piece under the composer, and the first one to play it in public in this country.

If you listen very closely you can hear the arpeggiation and also the asynchronization. This recording was a major inspiration in my news story video.

In addition, it has lead me to a friendship with the only living student of the performer, the composer Ramon Sender, who has verified everything in my video regarding Debussy.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBweTHrOwEU


So funny, before I toggled this post I bet myself $100 that it will be about arpeggiation AND will include a youtube video link.

I win! laugh

And lose! laugh

I made a bet with myself that I'd see a reference to Earl Wild. Losing that one, so far. But the night is young.

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#2152294 - 09/17/13 04:30 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Vid Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 834
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Bonus points for betting on "asynchronization"???

crazy
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2152375 - 09/17/13 06:22 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Louis Podesta Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 722
Here is another recorded link of this piece from "Christian Parent," which was posted in PW on 6/26/13. It is a perfect example of block chord Debussy playing with an over-romantic interpretation.

There are, I am just guessing, about a million pianists on this earth who play or who have played this piece in exactly this fashion.

Does that win in any of your 3rd grader bets?


https://soundcloud.com/christian-parent/debussy-clair-de-lune

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBweTHrOwEU

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#2249119 - 03/19/14 10:46 PM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
Chichi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 5
Clair de Lune is fairly easy to learn, that is, learning the notes and hitting the keys. My own instructor said it is "easy" to memorize key sequences... but truly making music - interpreting - is a different story smile
If nothing else, difficulty is relative!

Cheers
_________________________
Nich
Beethoven Sonata Op. 2 No. 1
Debussy Clair de Lune
Rachmaninoff Prelude in C#
Chopin Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1

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#2249193 - 03/20/14 03:02 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: Polyphonist]
Verbum mirabilis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
This thread is four years old, and has not been posted in for almost a year. It has already been revived from the dead once, as BDB pointed out a year ago after someone had awoken it from a three-year sleep. Why did it have to be revived again?

Next step is to stop posting in it and remember to revive it for a third time in 2015.


I think in 2015 it will already be the fifth time.

Edit: Wait... this is the third time, so 2015 will (hopefully) be the fourth time.


Edited by Verbum mirabilis (03/20/14 06:01 AM)
_________________________
Working on
Beethoven: sonata op. 14 no. 2
Chopin: op. 25 no. 2, op. 10 no. 3, op. 47
Bach: P&F in D minor, book 2

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#2249211 - 03/20/14 04:07 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
compianist1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 121
Loc: Banned
I completely agree,,

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#2249369 - 03/20/14 09:06 AM Re: If Clair de Lune is so "easy"... [Re: TonyY]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 787
You're all luney. crazy

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