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#1264360 - 09/08/09 01:39 AM Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece
AdamBrown Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 44
Loc: Hastings-on-the-Hudson, NY
I am wondering what level of ability you think is needed to play this Billy Joel piece: beginner, intermediate, or advanced. Thanks for the help.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/scorch.asp?ppn=SC0095562


Edited by AdamBrown (09/08/09 04:35 AM)

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#1264467 - 09/08/09 08:53 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
heidiv Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 518
Loc: piano bench, usually
Hi Adam -

Of course there are different arrangements of every song, ranging from beginner to advanced. This arrangement looks very straightforward. From the looks of the first page, I would classify it as beginner.

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#1264505 - 09/08/09 10:16 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
John v.d.Brook Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 6119
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I don't want to clutter my computer with yet another "free" program, so would you mind downloading it and printing it as a pdf and reposting it? I think you'll find more teachers would be willing to assess it for you.

John
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1264507 - 09/08/09 10:35 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: John v.d.Brook]
pianomommy1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 46
Loc: Orlando, FLorida
John -- I completely understand what you mean about clutter with free programs -- however, Scorch and musicnotes.com allows you to print digital downloads of thousands of pieces of music both classical and non. You purchase the piece and download it immediately. I use it but mostly when I have a voice student who needs a piece "right now" -- some competitions and organizations will allow you to use these pieces in the judges room and some won't. It is a LEGAL purchase and it prints on the copy that the piece is for the EXCLUSIVE use of "you" the purchaser but that doesn't keep anyone from making a "good" copy from the REAL piece.

Just a little info on musicnotes and scorch smile
_________________________
Piano Teacher
Church Pianist
Accompanist for schools and colleges
BME Stetson University
now that my children are grown, I am going back to school to get my Masters
Master's is on hold while I grow my new studio -- Lochwood Academy
lochwoodacademy.com
Lifelong learner! We can never know enough.

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#1264520 - 09/08/09 10:57 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4878
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
I don't want to clutter my computer with yet another "free" program, so would you mind downloading it and printing it as a pdf and reposting it? I think you'll find more teachers would be willing to assess it for you.

John


I would appreciate it if you did as John suggested above, too.

I looked at your link and immediately closed it as I don't want to download either. I was interested in taking a look. But, not as it's posted.

Good suggestion, John!
_________________________
Piano Teacher - Member MTNA/WSMTA

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#1264526 - 09/08/09 11:08 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: Betty Patnude]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1159
Loc: on your monitor
Me too.

When I saw it was a 10Mb download, I decided against it.

As John says, a pdf, would be great.

Having said that, I would imagine that a Billy Joel song, unless it is a simplified version, would be at least an intermediate piece.
_________________________
Rob

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#1264536 - 09/08/09 11:35 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: pianomommy1]
John v.d.Brook Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 6119
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: pianomommy1
John -- I completely understand what you mean about clutter with free programs -- however, Scorch and musicnotes.com allows you to print digital downloads of thousands of pieces of music both classical and non. You purchase the piece and download it immediately. I use it but mostly when I have a voice student who needs a piece "right now" -- some competitions and organizations will allow you to use these pieces in the judges room and some won't. It is a LEGAL purchase and it prints on the copy that the piece is for the EXCLUSIVE use of "you" the purchaser but that doesn't keep anyone from making a "good" copy from the REAL piece.

Just a little info on musicnotes and scorch smile


Musicnotes and scorch may be wonderful programs. There are thousands of wonderful programs. My computer is cluttered with them. I can't even get rid of some of these "wonderful" programs, which I no longer need, or used once, but now slow boot time and hog memory.

No thanks.

Portable Document Format, pdf, was designed expressly for what is being asked here. He's asking an academic question, and we need to evaluate a sample of the piece to answer it. It's well within copyright laws. I've got acrobat reader, and that's enough, already.

It appears to me that scorch and musicnotes reinvents the wheel.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1264544 - 09/08/09 11:49 AM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Morodiene Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7496
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I did download the program a while ago, as I have made purchases on musicnotes.com before. I love the ability to transpose!

Anyways, I would not consider this a beginner piece. There is always syncopation involved in pop music that makes, and unless you know your 7th chords, 9th chords, and my guess is even sus chords, you won't be doing this from a chordal perspective, which means you'll have to read it.

I would place it at intermediate level just for the rhythmic factor alone. However, if this is above your current level and you love the piece, you could do a combination of reading and playing by ear, using your ear to tell you the correct rhythm and using the sheet for pitches.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
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#1264718 - 09/08/09 04:11 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: John v.d.Brook]
AdamBrown Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 44
Loc: Hastings-on-the-Hudson, NY
I couldn't save the file off the internet because musicnotes.com doesn't want to give away free music so I scanned it and uploaded it to photobucket.com. You should be able to see it now.

http://s616.photobucket.com/albums/tt242/chunkyzergling/

Thank you smile

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#1264724 - 09/08/09 04:20 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
Kreisler Online   confused
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 12483
Loc: Iowa City, IA
It's not a matter of level.

You need to be able to handle chords, octaves, syncopated rhythms, and maintain a fairly quick tempo without tensing up.

It also helps a great deal if you can improvise and fill out some of the texture - piano/vocal scores like these can sound a bit sparse if you just play the piano part alone.

Originally Posted By: AdamBrown
I am wondering what level of ability you think is needed to play this Billy Joel piece: beginner, intermediate, or advanced. Thanks for the help.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/scorch.asp?ppn=SC0095562
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1264732 - 09/08/09 04:38 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: Kreisler]
AdamBrown Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 44
Loc: Hastings-on-the-Hudson, NY
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
It's not a matter of level.

You need to be able to handle chords, octaves, syncopated rhythms, and maintain a fairly quick tempo without tensing up.

It also helps a great deal if you can improvise and fill out some of the texture - piano/vocal scores like these can sound a bit sparse if you just play the piano part alone.

Originally Posted By: AdamBrown
I am wondering what level of ability you think is needed to play this Billy Joel piece: beginner, intermediate, or advanced. Thanks for the help.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/scorch.asp?ppn=SC0095562


Well, you can give a piece a general level of skill required to play it and that is what I would like to know.

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#1264782 - 09/08/09 06:10 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4878
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
The player of this music needs an adult hand size because of the octaves and 7ths int the RH and the octaves in the LH.

The LH never relaxes with constant 8th note octaves. M1-M9 is consistent D, then each measure changes position frequently with one measure being half steps. One needs to be able to carry off the LH by itself, so I would make that a complete LH study and build up the changes on the 1st beats of the measures when they appear which would provide you with a steady beat with memory recall and stamina in the LH. To make sure your LH has "enough" steady beats, while practicing I would say 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 over and over or reduce them to ti-ti-ti-ti-ti-ti-ti-ti.

Finding the chords on the keyboard with the correct spellings, hands shapes, and fingerings is going to be a challenge: The RH requires 5 finger positions for root chords, 6th and 7ths. So I would suggest you know all root chord positions (12) and be able to recognize them on the page when they appear. You could also improve recognition of the other chords 6th and 7th by knowing and doing and recognizing 1st and 2nd inversions of the root chords. Then when you see a 7th you could just add the 7th to the 5 finger position.

The

I teach by reading intervals, distance, and direction and looking for a note from one chord which reappears in the next chord - these associations save you lots of time and help you create good fingering by looking for the 5 finger position. I also teach my students to look for landmarks of all C's on the piano - then when one is in the music - you can find it easily and assign a finger number based on what is around it.

Do you do tied notes (syncopated rhythms)easily? If not, you're going to need to do a RH rhythm study of ties and rests.

Can you play a major scale in D for 2 octaves? Chords and I,IV,V progressions in D scale? That would assist you in comfort level and finding notes.

There are lots of accidentals in the music: Do you handle those easily and accurately?

How's your hand coordination? It's a challenge to choose partner hands when you have such a busy LH moving along. So recommending slow and deliberate practice in sections when you begin to put it together. Not recommended you play from beginning to end when practicing.

If you sight read really well, you could do the practice with hands together, I can play this piece and most Billy Joel on sight with no prep and have it sound professional.

I suggest that you take the lyrics and voice part and make an organized study of it too - with counting specifically, phrasing and accents in the words part of what you are looking for.

The level? Because of the key and accidentals, the rhythms, the chords, and the hand movement and coordination challenges: I'd say it's about a 5th grade level. I'd assign it there because I'd expect my sight reading student to be able to read the majority of it and give a good playback - what would be left would be the continuity and the "Billy Joel" style to work on. So, I'm saying 5th level which is not necessarily the number of years the student has been studying.

A 3rd year student who really wanted to could spend a month or two putting it together, but the piece would probably still be a little over their head to "perform" - the stamina and endurance is demanding. We also don't want to tighten up all relexes and not be able to play anything else because of overworking and potential damage to the body.

Many other pop pieces would have come before this to build the reading and finding skills of the pianist.

If you tell us more about yourself and what your question means to you, you might get a few different responses.

I did an analysis first of the contents so that you could follow the difficulty factor I think is involved. This is how I teach my students to analyze what kind of luck they are going to have with a piece.

I hope this helps you. It took a chunk (20 minutes) of time to look at it and to post.

Betty Patnude
_________________________
Piano Teacher - Member MTNA/WSMTA

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#1264790 - 09/08/09 06:18 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
Kreisler Online   confused
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 12483
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: AdamBrown
Well, you can give a piece a general level of skill required to play it and that is what I would like to know.


Okay, it's an intermediate level piece. The chords and rhythms are beyond what a beginner would likely be familiar with, but it's not particularly advanced in terms of the construction or technique required.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1264796 - 09/08/09 06:28 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: Betty Patnude]
AdamBrown Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 44
Loc: Hastings-on-the-Hudson, NY
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
The player of this music needs an adult hand size because of the octaves and 7ths int the RH and the octaves in the LH.

The LH never relaxes with constant 8th note octaves. M1-M9 is consistent D, then each measure changes position frequently with one measure being half steps. One needs to be able to carry off the LH by itself, so I would make that a complete LH study and build up the changes on the 1st beats of the measures when they appear which would provide you with a steady beat with memory recall and stamina in the LH. To make sure your LH has "enough" steady beats, while practicing I would say 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 over and over or reduce them to ti-ti-ti-ti-ti-ti-ti-ti.

Finding the chords on the keyboard with the correct spellings, hands shapes, and fingerings is going to be a challenge: The RH requires 5 finger positions for root chords, 6th and 7ths. So I would suggest you know all root chord positions (12) and be able to recognize them on the page when they appear. You could also improve recognition of the other chords 6th and 7th by knowing and doing and recognizing 1st and 2nd inversions of the root chords. Then when you see a 7th you could just add the 7th to the 5 finger position.

The

I teach by reading intervals, distance, and direction and looking for a note from one chord which reappears in the next chord - these associations save you lots of time and help you create good fingering by looking for the 5 finger position. I also teach my students to look for landmarks of all C's on the piano - then when one is in the music - you can find it easily and assign a finger number based on what is around it.

Do you do tied notes (syncopated rhythms)easily? If not, you're going to need to do a RH rhythm study of ties and rests.

Can you play a major scale in D for 2 octaves? Chords and I,IV,V progressions in D scale? That would assist you in comfort level and finding notes.

There are lots of accidentals in the music: Do you handle those easily and accurately?

How's your hand coordination? It's a challenge to choose partner hands when you have such a busy LH moving along. So recommending slow and deliberate practice in sections when you begin to put it together. Not recommended you play from beginning to end when practicing.

If you sight read really well, you could do the practice with hands together, I can play this piece and most Billy Joel on sight with no prep and have it sound professional.

I suggest that you take the lyrics and voice part and make an organized study of it too - with counting specifically, phrasing and accents in the words part of what you are looking for.

The level? Because of the key and accidentals, the rhythms, the chords, and the hand movement and coordination challenges: I'd say it's about a 5th grade level. I'd assign it there because I'd expect my sight reading student to be able to read the majority of it and give a good playback - what would be left would be the continuity and the "Billy Joel" style to work on. So, I'm saying 5th level which is not necessarily the number of years the student has been studying.

A 3rd year student who really wanted to could spend a month or two putting it together, but the piece would probably still be a little over their head to "perform" - the stamina and endurance is demanding. We also don't want to tighten up all relexes and not be able to play anything else because of overworking and potential damage to the body.

Many other pop pieces would have come before this to build the reading and finding skills of the pianist.

If you tell us more about yourself and what your question means to you, you might get a few different responses.

I did an analysis first of the contents so that you could follow the difficulty factor I think is involved. This is how I teach my students to analyze what kind of luck they are going to have with a piece.

I hope this helps you. It took a chunk (20 minutes) of time to look at it and to post.

Betty Patnude





Thank you for your response. I am 28 and have been playing for a year and a half. I have an hour lesson with a piano teacher every week. I'm going to work on this piece with him. Yes, it will probably take me a month or so to learn. I was interested in knowing the skill level required to play this piece because I can play it and have started it. I was just wondering if my skill level is above beginner yet. Someone said the piece is intermediate skill level so it makes me happy that I can play an intermediate skill level piece. Not that it matters but I already know the easy piano version of My Life so I'm looking forward to playing a version that is closer to what Billy Joel actually plays. Thanks smile

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#1264810 - 09/08/09 07:02 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4878
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
You're welcome, Adam!

From what you said about yourself and having the hour lesson, I'm sure you will do just fine. I hope something I said will help you get it all under your hands soon so that you can soon get to perform it confidently for yourself and maybe others. Then, you'll find other pop songs hat attract your attention and you'll have a whole program of entertaining songs.

Have you looked at Billy Joel's videos on youtube? I like his ones taken on the boat ride in the harbor. So very unique, I think.

I learned "Just the Way You Are" when it first came out and enjoyed it so much at the time. He writes a great piece and it was attractive to me because his professional arrangement had so many challenges that combined jazz with classical. I think it's his training that makes his so incredible as a contemporary popular piano and song writer. I played it that year at a teacher's recital along with all the Mozart, Chopin, Bach, Scarlatti, and Rachmaninoff pieces by the other teachers. I remember looking up into the first row of audience and seeing grins on the faces of some teenagers there. (You don't see too many grins at piano recitals from the stage usually while the music is still in progress.)

Betty Patnude
_________________________
Piano Teacher - Member MTNA/WSMTA

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#1264820 - 09/08/09 07:18 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: Betty Patnude]
AdamBrown Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 44
Loc: Hastings-on-the-Hudson, NY
Thank you Betty and Kreisler, I appreciate you taking the time to help me. Betty, I have not seen those Billy Joel youtube videos; mind posting a link or two?

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#1264834 - 09/08/09 07:46 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
John v.d.Brook Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 6119
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Adam, I just got a break between lessons and agree with above comments by Betty and Kreisler. Most of my middle school students would be able to learn it fairly quickly. Probably level 4 or 5.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1264855 - 09/08/09 08:26 PM Re: Seeking Help - What Lvl is this piece [Re: AdamBrown]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4878
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Adam,

Google: "Billy Joel" and there's lots of videos of his performances singing and playing piano - his own compositions.

These are what I have handy:
Billy Joel - Videos with Fishing or Ocean Scenes and Seagulls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsmKNscDlkU
New York Fishing – Long Island Tuna & Striped Bass
North Altantic Deep Sea fishing, mostly out of Montauk, New York and the Long Island Sound
Tuna & Striped Bass. Music: Downeaster Alexa by Billy Joel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed6WKq1UmCk
Billy Joel - The Downeaster "Alexa"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pT2qwSow8I
Row for a Cure 2000 – Day 6 – New York City

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LraZEoRnkPc
Billy Joel – Lullabye (Goodnight, My Angel)

I hope these are all findable links for you!

Betty
_________________________
Piano Teacher - Member MTNA/WSMTA

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