Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Is the end near for German & high-end European piano makers?

SF,

These are the long term taste and culture changes. The middle class used to aspire to upper class lifestyles and that included upper class culture. Even in my father's lifetime classical music used to be presented to school children as something to be admired and emulated. I can still hear him singing the little songs elementary school children were taught to familiarize them with the sounds of, say, Schubert's unfinished symphony. Like that would be part of the curriculum today.

Secondly, we have the technological changes. The middle class family in 1890 had only themselves if they wanted wanted home entertainment. Hence the proliferation of piano makers for the middle class. The middle class today could certainly afford a decent piano. The middle class today is incomparably wealthier than the middle class of sixty years ago. They just don't want one.

Neither one of these arguments has anything to do with changes in the income distribution. These are the long term things the piano industry has had to contend with.

Toman,

The concentration of wealth in the super rich is not what is driving things. If you look at the number of families earning more than 100K in constant dollars, it has swelled over the past generation. The same is true for people at the bottom. In the 1970s a person at the 90th percentile of the income distribution earned only 3 times what a person at the 10th percentile earned. The figure today is closer to a factor of six. This is not affected by having a few individuals who make megabucks in income or who own billions in assets.

PD, I absolutely agree with you on your last post. I just don't really believe that the separation as you describe it will actually further the marketing of expensive high-end pianos.

Wealthy people 100 years ago would usually display their wealth and education by having things like a large library and, say, ideally, a Steinway grand. If you look into the homes of the wealthy of the early 21st century, other things might have taken these spots. He or she who hoards a myriad books and one or more pianos in the home in the year 2009 is likely to be a quirky professor rather than a millionaire.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

To the extent that the demand for pianos is income elastic, it will further the purchase of pianos. To the extent that tastes are changing away from piano ownership entirely, well, the opposite happens. Unfortunately for the piano industry, the latter is dominating the former.

"They may be toast anyway because of long term trends that are shrinking the demand for acoustic instruments."

Burnt toast for most; buttered toast for a few.

It would be easy for this thread to turn into another 'Let's-band-together-to-save-the-industry' thread. the assumption being that the industry itself is doing all it can to do its part.

A couple of other things that Kurtmen said were that:

"The marketing strategy of the high-end piano industry hasn’t been the most adequate...."

"It is really a shame that many beautiful musical instruments made by these manufacturers will be extinct just because they can’t find ways to market them and only very few people can effectively sell them.... "

I think Kurtmen's got it right.

Marketing doesn't have to be a slick veneer that obscures substrata of quality and integrity. The piano industry just makes it that way sometimes. In the heyday of pianos, the instruments sold themselves. When things began to slip, there was a premium on those salesmen who had the gift of selling......selling anything. Today when it's almost gone, we still have that. The creased and shiny salesman with the ultra-thin veneer of talking points who is selling X may be selling Y next month. He's a career selling guy, not a career X guy. The distributor for piano maker X is likely to have a career resume which includes distribution of Y and Z as well. By the sheerest of coincidences, Y and Z were the best pianos out there when he was selling them.

The piano industry may not recycle pianos, but it sure does recycle personnel, and then there are the retailer owners, some of whom change lines and representations almost as often as they change their shorts. Same with prices. They'll sell you a model from maker R for $$$ telling you it's a keeper. Six months later they'll be closing it out as stale news for $$ and heralding the arrival of their new standard bearer: maker Q.

If manufacturers want to improve their marketing, they should choose the company they keep more carefully. I like Rod's idea. I would like to see more rebuilders offering one low-production line that they believe in and will stick with over time.

It wasn't so very long ago, really, that women didn't work outside the home. They had some time to fill up. Daughters were encouraged to learn to play partly to enhance their value in the marriage market; it was one way of showing off that was perfectly seemly. I have read that this was also true to some extent, in the case of sons, who also might hope to make a better marriage by showing skill as a musician.

"He or she who hoards a myriad books and one or more pianos in the home in the year 2009 is likely to be a quirky professor rather than a millionaire."

Well, you're one-third right in my case: quirky.

The time pressure on all members of a family is quite intense anymore, and a lot of purchasable possessions, activities (or inactivities), and attitudes make pianos seem a lot less important.

I agree that the ineptitude of marketing, creating a demand, is a big contributor. I can't think of the last time I saw a magazine ad, TV commercial, or billboard intended to create a demand for pianos. When they muscle aside beer commercials on SuperBowl day and pianos are marketed as making the guys a hot property with the young ladies (or just that being a musician is the fulfilment of a dream), we'll start seeing those constipated inventories start to move... but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.

Family income is a bit of an anachronistic measure for subjects such as ours. As Wikipedia says about household income inequality:

"In the United States the increasing gap between the top 30% and the bottom 70% of society is attributed to the large increase of single parent households. The large increase in immigration over the past several decades, with foreign born workers increasing from about 5% of the workforce in 1970 to over 15% in 2005, has also increased income disparities, as the majority are immigrating from poor countries, come to the US, and work their way out of poverty and into the middle class."

For these reasons, it's more instructive to look at individual income, not family income.

But even individual income statistics aren't perfect for our purposes, as immigrants from poor countries don't typically possess the skills required to work in a high end piano factory - and those who do possess these skills are paid far more than typical third world immigrants.

The relevant figure for our purposes is the ratio of labor cost for a new Steinway (or more precisely, Bosendorfer) to the income of well to do professionals (the consumer of high end pianos), such as lawyers and doctors.

I agree with Turandot that today, inadequate marketing is a major factor in the decline in sales of most top echelon European pianos.
Steinway and Sons has demonstrated how successful marketing has helped that company survive and flourish. Their product has international recognition and respect and this has been partly achieved through rigorous marketing. Apart from promoting their traditon of excellence in piano manufacturing, they have included extra musical factors such as the prestige and investment values of buying a new Steinway piano
They have also maintained a tight hegemony over the use of their instruments in concert venues through their "Steinway Artists" register.
In comparison, relatively few people have even heard of Bosendorfer, Bechstein or Bluthner despite their production of beautiful pianos of great distinction.
To compound this problem of diminishing sales for these top end European pianos, there is intense competition from Yamaha and Kawai who mass produce excellent pianos at a third or even a quarter the cost.
The deluge of very competitively priced and rapidly improving pianos from China has enormous repercussions for international piano sales.
It is a dynamic and rapidly changing situation for all piano makers and like Darwin's theory, it will probable come down to the survival of the fittest.

Regards,

Robert.

Wow - well said Robert.

One big problem facing makers such as Bosendorfer and particularly the likes of Bechstein and Bluthner is that they think their brands are fairly well known.

I can assure you this is not true. Quite the opposite. My fellow adult students and piano teachers have never heard of some of the high-end European brands!! What do you think is the awareness among casual piano enthusiasts?

This is a common problem among manufacturers of many products - not only in the musical instruments industry. I could share stories about food manufacturers who, when learning of the facts of their low brand awareness, were utterly devastated. Sad, but true.

I'd just like to re-iterate that marketing, while commonly thought of as advertising, is much more than that. If you were to ask piano manufacturers why they did next to no advertising, I think you would be told that there isn't budget for it. I think what they told you would be true. Honestly, I don't think it would accomplish much either. The prospective market is such a tiny and illusive target, and most young guys don't feel that playing Chopin will make them hot property with the ladies. I think those young guys are right too.

But what if, instead of asking them about their lack of advertising, you were to ask the manufacturers these questions about marketing aspects that do not carry a price tag? What would the answers be?

Why do you make so many models of such varying quality? Why don't you trim and prune, weed out the losers, produce only those you know to be the best, and let the market gravitate to those and choose you because of them?

Why do you solicit zero input from your rank-and-file customers? Why don't you use warranty registration as a way to cultivate their loyalty and learn from their picks, pans and preferences?

Why do you turn a deaf ear to professional musicians and professional retailers who make explicit suggestions to you either directly or through your concert prep people as to what changes at the production level might improve your pianos?

Why do you churn the retail market by ending associations with retailers who have represented you with integrity and loyalty in favor of other retailers and retailer groups who promise you the moon?

Why do you invest so little in providing your sellers with the training that will enable them to present your image to the buying public in a professional manner without negative selling?

Why do you recycle individuals who have failed elsewhere to direct your company's distribution into the future? If somone has cratered one company, why do you expect that your fate in his hands will be any different?

Why don't you ensure that there is one and only one message on the lips of each and every individual who represents your brand in the chain, and that the message is a clear statement of your philosophy, your design intent, your fair and consistent pricing, and your orientation toward the complete satisfaction of the customer?

These things, rather than glossy ads in leisure magazines, are the marketing issues that should matter the most, and don't seem to matter enough.

I think that many of the high end makers also over estimate the general buying public's ability to discern quality. Cause in point: Budweiser beer to connisseurs is garbage yet out sells just about everything. McDonalds restaurants have the highest profit margins in the restaurant industry and many of the most plotless banal films coming out of Hollywood top the box office. And then there's pop music........

you know, this is happening over and over again, historically.

we dress-up in shoes and clothing and buy consumer goods made in third-world countries where children and workers in general are treated like slaves, because they are CHEAP and a 'good buy'

because of financial see-saw games your dollar is a day's wage in some countries, so you make those workers happy in another country but your own workers go broke.

you go out and demand to buy a grand piano, which has thousands of parts and takes forever to build, for a few thousand dollars, because it is 'convenient'

well, consider that all of this 'convenience' in going to be paid for in the long run, in my opinion.

I started in the industry 16 years ago, the sky was falling then too and from what my older colleagues tell me, it was going on for years before that.
High quality pianos have never been affordable, I wish the wasn't the case but it is.
Most things from Europe are expensive in the country, I can't think of a Europeon car that sells for $15,000, most are like BMW or Mercedes. I'm sure in Europe they sell cheaper ones. Cars are cheap, they're an exceptionally good deal for what you get in terms of machinery, engineering etc. but they sell tens of thousands of them.

As far as marketing goes, I've heard that for years. It may be true that not everyone is familiar with Bosendorfer unless they're pretty deep into pianos but that true of many products, how many of you know what Bertram builds?

As many of you said, these companies have been in business for many years. One thing that experience tells you is that some years will be great, others not so great. In just my 16 years, I've been through this 3 times (1993,2000,2009)

"how many of you know what Bertram builds?"

I happen to know what Bertram builds and in fact a friend of mine in So Cal owns one. And that is a very good question, by the way, Cadillackid.

The answer would be interesting to know - and the real question should be this:

"How many prospective buyers in the target audience for Bertram are aware of the brand, know what it stands for and would consider a Bertram should they be in the market for a high-end motor yacht?"

That is an apt analogy.

So, as applied to the high-end segment of the piano industry, one would ask:

"What is the awareness of and perception of our brand (e.g. Bluthner, Bechstein, Grotrian, Feurich, Forster, Steingraeber et al) among the target audience of consumers who might be in a position to select an instrument in our price and quality range in the reasonable future?"

If that awareness is virtually zero - and I guarantee you it is - then you have a problem. And mass consumer advertising (such as TV commercials on the Super Bowl) is not the answer.
These companies are too small to afford mass marketing campaigns of that sort. But that is ok - they don't need to do mass marketing. But they need to do some marketing, of whatever description you feel appropriate.

That is, unless like some their order books are filled. Then this is a moot discussion.

I beg to differ a bit. I once dated a woman who took me to a party of her colleagues, where the going joke was that her not-liked boss had the nickname Charlie Brown (he really did resemble him), so I got to the keyboard and started playing "Linus and Lucy". I was a hit at the party, and later at my girldriend's place.

So true. I went and visited the old place where I bought my Charles Walter, from a salesman who was not the greasy guy who could sell anything, but a real piano guy, with the disposition of a church deacon. He told me why the CW was such a great instrument, and I believed him, and loved that piano every minute. It turns out that when the local license for the Steinway & Yahama brands was open (because the place that had been in business for over a century got flooded after Katrina), this place snapped it up, and all of sudden all the odd brands like CW, Schimmel, Vogel, and yes Bosie, were considered as not so good anymore. At least they were discounting their Vogel 177 pretty well.

DISCLAIMER: I AM A MARKETEER

Of a completely different sort of product (networking equipment..) That said, pianos can be magical - the guy just starts playing the piano in in the corner of the bar and the ladies swoon... (and so goes the tale.) But to do these cost effectively, they need to be viral - perhaps with humor - spread on youtube (which doesn't happen by accident - mostly.) In short, it takes effort - which is easy to justify if there is return - but this take faith ;-)

Try it once, good luck.

work with it, and it can be very powerful!

Rob

Totally agree. I did not know about Bechstein, Bluthner, and many other brands until I started reading this forum, and I have been learning piano for over 10 years.

Also I feel that Asian families rarely buy brands besides Steinway, Kawai, and Yamaha (brand recognition thing?), and due to the faster economic growth, Asians have been driving the luxury goods market in the last decade or so...

Good pianos last too long.