I started out tuning 1 1/2 year ago, out of sheer frustration - not enough tuners around here to keep the pianos in good shape. Little did I know what I threw myself into

Much because of the helpful advice I've gotten here, I'm slowly but surely getting better (thanks to Bill B, Bob, BDB, Up/Unright, Gadzar, and all you other passionate craftsmen out there

This year I tune all the pianos at the local conservatory (my employee for the last 10 years) as part of my work at the piano department. 35 pianos, a non-stress environment, simply a great opportunity to develope my chops.

Here in my part of the world (Finland, that is) we normally tune to 442 Hz. I´ve tuned around a dozen so far, and they consistently hoover around 445. Finland has highs in the mid 80´s (F) in the summer, and lows well below zero F in the winter. (Humidity is not really a factor, though - dry all the year around.)

I guess the pianos will get very flat around christmas. What about all of you in other parts of the world - is this a common phenomeon?

Here in Mexico City, there are two seasons in a year: wet and dry. In summertime (wet season) pianos go sharper by 15-25 cents than in springtime (dry season). Usually rains go from late may through soon november, the rest of the year is dry.

I always tune pianos to 440 Hz, regardless of the season. That way the piano is at least for a while tuned and at 440hz.

I've been wondering about tuning at some middle point, that is a little sharper in summer, a little flatter in spring, but I have never done it. By tuning at 440 hz. the result is that if I tuned it in summer then it will be flat in spring, but it will be also out of tune and need tuning anyway. And visceversa, if I tuned it in spring it will be sharp and out of tune in summer.

If I tuned a little flat or sharp, anticipating wethear changes, then it will never be simultaneously at 440 hz and in tune.

What I advice to my customers is to tune twice a year, as soon as the piano's soundboard shrinks or expands due to humidity changes. Waiting 2 or 3 weeks after weather changes to let the piano stabilize before tuning.

In this part of Canada (43 deg latitude) our temperatures and weather is about the same as Finland but we swing back and forth in humidity much more. The summers can be 60-70% RH and the winters usually 25-35%. I tune most often to 440 unless I have arranged with customer to float the pitch. Usually the pianos end up about 437 hz in the winter and 442-443 in the summer if they were tuned in the opposite season to 440. Humidifying in the winter and airconditioner/dehumidifier in the summer makes a big difference in stability and it is a good area here to take advantage of a Dampp Chaser system. Pppat, congratulations on your advancements in the trade, you will find the quest for knowledge and experiences in regards to servicing/tuning pianos never ends.

Here in the US, public buildings are required to have HVAC systems that introduce outside air into the building, and our local colleges are torture chambers for pianos.

I have measured 90% in the summer, and 15% in the winter. This equals a half step in the middle of the piano, and requires frequent tuning.

I concur with Emmery and Dan. In most of the USA, the relative humidity follows a continuum from very low to very high each year. In recent weeks, I have tuned many church and school pianos. They are just beginning their activities for the scholastic year which runs September through May.

Often, at this time of year, when I measure A3, it is alarmingly sharp. I have a procedure which I often follow for this kind of situation. I set my ETD at A-440 with no offset in pitch. I start tuning the low tenor, radically lowering the pitch to standard (I always use muting strips). Often, when I reach C4, I notice the pitch is much less sharp. Sometimes, it only about 4 cents sharp. I then offset the pitch to +4.0. If it is still sharp of that, I may only offset it to +2.0.

By the time I get to C5, I often notice that the pitch is either right at +4.0 or even slightly flat of it. I will then either tune this section at +4.0 or even boost the pitch slightly higher so that the ultimate pitch will end up at +4.0. When I get to the treble section, I may again find the first few notes alarmingly sharp but by the time I get to the 6th octave, they may be right at or slightly below +4.0. I adjust my offset so that the ultimate pitch will end up at +4.0.

The high treble can be anybody's guess. It may be off the chart sharp or quite flat of where the rest of the piano lies. Again, I adjust my offset either high or low so that the high treble will end up at +4.0.

This is a fact of life for the kind of climate we experience in most (but certainly not all) of the USA and Canada. There is no possible way to tune a piano which is as out of tune as we experience them time after time, in just one pass. The strip mute is the necessary tool for accomplishing the pitch adjustment phase of the tuning. This phase can often be accomplished in 15-20 minutes. Once completed, the piano can accept a fine tuning in another 30-40 minutes. Indeed, I often get the whole job done in 30-45 minutes. I can actually tune the piano faster and better twice than I could fight with it once. The bass then usually falls right into line and often only needs to be tuned once. Starting a tuning on A0 has never made sense to me and I have never done that and never will.

In January through April, the opposite of the above will be true. The target pitch would be -4.0. Starting with the low tenor, now alarmingly flat, I raise it to 0.0. Then as I proceed, I find the rest of the piano closer to -4.0, etc.

Of course, there are certain situations where the piano MUST be at A-440. But these situations are rare except for public performances and not all of those demand it either. If I chose to tune a school choir room piano, for example which at this time of year, the A3 might well measure 20 or more cents sharp at A-440 just for the sake of it, by October, it would already be below pitch. By December, when they are doing all of their performances, the piano would be almost as flat as it was sharp now. By the time they return from the holidays to begin the Spring semester, the piano would be 20 or more cents flat at A3.

The target pitch of + or - 4.0 cents in the extreme seasons is reasonable, in my opinion. After all, "Standard Pitch" is generally recognized to be A-440, plus or minus one cycle per second (A-439 to A-441). All but fixed pitched instruments can easily adjust to anywhere within that range. To the ear, there is no perceivable difference, not even to those who claim to have "perfect pitch".

In countries where the customary pitch is higher, such as 442 or 443, you simply need to aim for plus or minus 4.0 cents of that as your target pitch in extremely humid or extremely dry conditions.

I sometimes go beyond the 4.0 limit in extreme cases in increments of 2 cents. That is, plus or minus 6.0, 8.0, 10.0. Today, I tuned a church Steinway B which had previously had very extreme pitch problems at +10.0. There was a pipe organ there too but I never asked a thing about it. The piano had been fitted with a humidity control system about two years ago and it was active. I changed the wicks which really needed changing. The last time I tuned it, I did so at -4.0. I have no doubt that by the time I tune it again in January, it will be at -4.0.

The issue is not that I am too lazy to change the pitch that radically, it is more for the sake of the piano itself. The Steinway B was not very much out of tune at +10.0. All registers were approximately that pitch, so that is where I tuned it, even though it was beyond my normal parameters. It is better to not fight with a very old Steinway model A with regards to pitch but to tune it according to its natural tendency to rise and fall in the environment where it sits. It will reach A-440 of its own accord within the coming months and will go below that of its own accord before six months are complete.

In my area, the school solo and ensemble contests often occur in February and March. The schools often call for 8-10-12 pianos to all be tuned on a single day. They bring in junkers that have been sitting unused and unserviced, sometimes for years. They seem to have the idea that for some of these, this is the way to keep them going if they send them to the solo and ensemble contest to be "tuned". Some of them could really use a half or full day's work but they say they just want them tuned.

A conscientious technician cannot leave a piano with keys that stick, don't play or have "bobbling hammers". They bite the bullet and do what they must and manage the pitch issue on top of that. This is definitely a time when -4.0, -6.0, -8.0, etc., must be considered. Not all of the pianos are used for judging. Some are used only for vocal warm up, for example. We do not want anyone to have to use a piano that has not been tuned or is unplayable. We have to make a kind of triage decision however in each case about what we can and cannot do with each piano under the circumstances.

The piano with gaping cracks in the soundboard and is 30 or more cents flat at A3 does not merit being tuned to standard pitch at that time. It is either make some compromises or leave some pianos completely unserviced. As technicians, we also need to make a living, so when there is a limit to how much we can earn, there is also a limit to how much we can do.

The Dampp-Chaser humidity control systems do go a long way in controlling pitch but in many circumstances, they can only do so partially, even when other accessories such as string covers and bottom covers are applied. These extremes do not exist in some climates but they do where I live and are a fact of life. It takes experience and good judgment to know what should and shouldn't be done with regard to pitch.

Everything above is absolutely correct. I'd like to add when a piano is moved, humidity issues change pitch. When a piano is tuned A-440 in Chicago during a dry mid winter freeze, then moved to humid Orlando, the result is a 50 cent raise in pitch. The pianos at the university change 15-25 cents from rainy season (August) to dry season (Feburary). Moving a piano from a humid high school gym (sweaty bodies and locker rooms) to an air conditioned music room will also change pitch.

Dan Casdorph, you say that 15 to 90% swing in humidity means a HALF STEP change in pitch in the middle section of the piano -- that's 100¢, right? Or is my definition of a "half step" (white key to black key) vs. "whole step" (white key to white key skipping black between) different than yours?

Ok all... I understand most areas in the USA have high humidity in summer, and low humidity in winter. What are some examples of places & climates in the USA where it's different? I'll give an example where I live. I don't remember what humidity is in winter, but in summer here in/near San Diego, CA, we'll often have 15-25% humidity or so, with 90-100° temperatures, sometimes touching 105°F or higher. Typically, even after tuning my pianos late winter / early-mid spring, I rarely find them more than a cent or two sharp, and they're more likely a few cents or so flat. For example, my 1956 Baldwin Hamilton, which I last tuned maybe 2-4 months ago or so (can't remember, and didn't document it) is very close - probably within about a cent, with the exception of across the bass/tenor break, which has several noticeably sour octaves. The piano is currently farther out of tune with itself than how far it is off pitch. (Current indoor RH (in another room) is 56%, outdoor is 51%.)

Is San Diego a much different climate than other places that have high humidity in summer?

I took Dan's post to mean 50 cents, not 100. The largest pitch change I've experienced has been about 50 cents.

Bill, it is refreshing to hear that...and kudos for your candor.

I have long felt that it can be more problematic to haul a piano way up to 440 in 24% relative humidity, and then back DOWN to 440 in the middle of summer when its 20Cents sharp...

The idea of always leaving it, no matter what, at A440 is something that, as a rebuilder, always troubles me.

Obviously, for concerts or specific events there is no question...but I explain to clients that it will be better to condition the SB by controlling the moisture FIRST by introducing correct humidity (a Damnpp Chaser comes to mind) than to crank (ream) the tuning pin holes and move the strings all around (bringing the minor kink, for example, from the bridges into the speaking length to raise pitch and possibly introducing tonal problems etc etc)...

Anyway, not lazy here either...but I'll try as often as can to "first do no harm", especially on older pianos where the client/school/hall either can't, or won't, assist in controlling the relative humidity.

Sometimes its better to dance WITH nature's swings....

RPD

88 Key, San Diego is much different from most other places in the USA! I am originally from Los Angeles although I have lived in Wisconsin more than half my life. I tune some pianos out there when I go on visits. The hard and sure techniques I have learned here in the Midwest make pianos out there last for years between tunings. I have often wondered how piano technicians can get people to have regular tunings out there when the humidity hardly ever changes. When it does, it soon resumes to the usual.

RPD, for some reason, I have always disliked lowering pitch much more than I do raising it. I agree that large changes of pitch, back and forth every year are ultimately destructive to a piano. I agree with Bob's observation that 50 cents (a quarter, not half step) is about the most that pianos would usually rise and fall. That is also only in the low tenor that they do that. They also seem to be quite volatile in the high treble but not as much as the low tenor. The Bass is always the most stable part of the piano. The most I have ever seen the pitch of A3 rise in Summer after tuning to 440 from -52 cents in March was +62 cents but that was a very extreme case. They got rid of that piano and bought a new Kawai that does much better.

Last Winter, I encountered a Wurlitzer spinet that was over a half step low. I thought at the time, it merited tuning all the way to 440 because dry air could not have accounted for the entire amount that it was low in pitch. If I raised it all the way, I thought, it might not really go sharp in Summer. I was wrong! This Summer, it was 42 cents sharp! To add to that, I had removed the action which was rattling, tightened all the flanges and adjusted the severe lost motion and let-off that was 1/4 inch or more. When I came back to it in Summer, the hammers were standing above the rail and hammers were blocking against the strings. The piano was just as unplayable less than 6 months later as it was when I serviced it in Winter.

Fortunately, not all pianos behave this badly. Some are remarkable, even without any humidity control system. Others which do have humidity control behave very well. I say all of this from 30 years experience in this area which is considered moderate and temperate compared to some other areas. We generally only go from about 0 degrees outside in Winter to the high 80's in Summer. Indoor humidity ranges from about 20% in Winter to about 60% in Summer. There are brief periods outside these extremes but those are the usual maximums and minimums. I can hardly imagine trying to cope with anything more than that.

And THAT is the big mystery, isn't it?! I have clients who sport pianos that are mid-level instruments, at best, and the things are stable in spite of nutty swings such as you described above...and some really nice instruments just flop around in the summer/winter cycles.

Since they're all tuned by me (rendering a difference in tuners a non-issue) it must be attributable to other factors.
But it beats me sometimes why one instrument will behave and a better instrument, by all accounts, will not.

I have one humorous piano made by a Korean company (a grand) that actually developes a perfect "HOWL" in one season...and then it cures itself in another season...
...and I'm talking a real, honest to goodness howl. It makes a "hooooooooo" sound that I cannot explain, as I'm working around the break...it actually sounds like somebody howlling behind the door! LOL

Its undoubtably a result of some wierd back and forth of the board or termination issues...

Makes life interesting, to be sure!

RPD