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#12672 - 01/27/09 07:07 PM Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2234
Loc: Pennsylvania
As most of you know we had a recent incident with a publicly outed sock puppet.

There were many opinions on how the matter should be handled. Some thought that the humiliation was enough punishment, while others thought banning was appropriate.

Well, in order to seek out what was appropriate action, I went to the rules. It was then I discovered that the rules MAKE NO MENTION of sock puppets, nor did I find it stated abywhere "Do this and you will be banned". Pretty much it's been left up to the discretion of Frank B. and the moderator(s) of the forum to decide what action is proper in most circumstances. This has worked well and will continue to be practiced until such a time as Frank B. and the moderators deem it necessary to revise/rewtrite the rules.

In the matter of socks, though, we are taking a stand. There will be ZERO tolerance for sock puppets. Be a sock and be banned. Period.

If you are a sock or have a sock and have not been discovered, pick ONE user account and and use it exclusively. Do not ever use the other screen name again.

ANYONE CAUGHT USING A SOCK PUPPET WILL BE BANNED ONCE DISCOVERED! NO matter who you are.

Two members have been banned as of today due to the use of sock puppets. They are:
Pianomadam, using the sock of cklavier, and TheFakeLarryFine, using the sock of threebees.

Thank you everyone for your patience.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#12673 - 01/27/09 07:37 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Thank you, Ken (and Frank) for your follow-through on this issue. I agree with your stance completely and think PW will be better as a result of implementing this policy.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#12674 - 01/27/09 07:50 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
good job - thank you
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#12675 - 01/27/09 07:57 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
An excellent solution, if a bit slow in coming. \:D
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#12676 - 01/27/09 07:58 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
turandot Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7190
Loc: torrance, CA
Fake's [Threebees] last post is up on the board right now. It ends with a plea to "Promote this junior member to platinum." I'm not sure what you've done is what he had in mind. \:D
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#12677 - 01/27/09 07:59 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Bear 1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 1348
Loc: Hillsboro Beach South Florida
Fantastic! Thanks Ken and Frank... Fair and balanced.

Bear
_________________________
Barry J "Bear" Arnaut ♫
46 Years in the Piano Industry
Retired Kawai/Shigeru Kawai Regional Manager
(My posts and threads are my opinions only)

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#12678 - 01/27/09 08:05 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
DanLaura Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 695
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Thank you so much guys We have found this site to be of great help on lots of subjects and are very happy that we can continue to find it so.
_________________________
Dan and Laura Larson
Fazioli and Ibach grands
Larson Piano Studio
http://www.stoneformsart.com/

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#12679 - 01/27/09 08:14 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
turandot Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7190
Loc: torrance, CA
Arrrrgh

Fake has posted since he was banned. I hope the banning isn't a voluntary participation thing. \:D
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#12680 - 01/27/09 08:23 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2234
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Arrrrgh

Fake has posted since he was banned. I hope the banning isn't a voluntary participation thing. \:D [/b]
No. \:D It's not voluntary. Perhaps Frank missed one, or didn't push all the buttons yet. If so he will see this topic and act. \:\)

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#12681 - 01/27/09 09:05 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
U S A P T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 1645
Loc: An Indiana University
I remember when I changed my nick to part of my REAL name. Suddenly everyone thought I was Norbert. I quickly went back and used this made-up name to save his reputation.
_________________________
Full-Time Music/Entrepreneurship Major: (Why not compose music AND businesses?)
Former Piano Industry Professional
************
Steinway M
Roland Atelier AT90R
************
All Posts are Snarky Unless Otherwise Noted
************

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#12682 - 01/27/09 09:10 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Thanks, too! Dang, I hadn't even known about that Fake Larry Fine guy using a puppet...all I'd seen some of his rather boorish posts under that name.

Did he get caught with his pants down like Pianomadam? \:D
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#12683 - 01/27/09 09:17 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10478
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Sounds right to me.

Thanks for making a hard call.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#12684 - 01/27/09 09:32 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2234
Loc: Pennsylvania
Horwitzian - no, a member pointed similarities in their posts so I looked further and made the discovery.

Steve - You're right, it was a hard call. In the long run I think it will be best for Piano World.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#12685 - 01/27/09 10:27 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Thanks for the info, Ken. \:\)

Cheers!
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#12686 - 01/27/09 11:19 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
Goodbye all and best of luck ;\)
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#12687 - 01/28/09 03:54 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
As most of you know we had a recent incident with a publicly outed sock puppet.

There were many opinions on how the matter should be handled. Some thought that the humiliation was enough punishment, while others thought banning was appropriate.

Well, in order to seek out what was appropriate action, I went to the rules. It was then I discovered that the rules MAKE NO MENTION of sock puppets, nor did I find it stated abywhere "Do this and you will be banned". [/b]
...so then why isn't everyone given a fair chance as of the decision? If there was no mention of sock puppets in the rules, it would appear that Pianomadam was playing within those rules at that time, as were a number of other individuals that hadn't been caught.

Although I don't have a personal interest in having Pianomadam nor TFLF stay, it seems that banning them for previous behaviour is punishing them for breaking rules that were not (and still are not) in place.

Does this mean then, that it is open season for exposing the rest of the culprits on here?

Is this action sent as a warning to only to future offenders, or can we/should we hunt around and look for socks in the history and then report them to the mods?

Please understand that I am all for enforcing the rules, but I believe the action taken in this case is not an example of that taking place, but rather a response to some very emotional reactions to an event with a self-serving member.

Also, I think it wise to remember that this forum, since it includes dealers and technicians, will always include advice/opinions/FUD tactics from many more undiscovered, and slightly more crafty Pianomadams. This is one of the reasons Piano World will remain a very dangerous place to those seeking honest and impartial guidance or advice. Not that there isn't some excellent advice given on here, but really, how many new piano buyers can separate the real information from the clever obfuscation? And how many new piano buyers will be influenced by how many positive hits brand x has compared to the negative hits brand y has?


Interesting to see how everything plays out from here...
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#12688 - 01/28/09 04:22 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
How interesting.

I am sure that some of the more enterprising among us will now see this as a challenge. Let the sock puppetry entertainment commence.

It is surely not difficult for a determined sock. One id at home, one at work, two different IP addresses. Apparently router IP addresses can also be changed quite easily (necessary if a sockie is rumbled).

I would love to know how many memberships lie dormant, registered eons ago, just waiting for sock activation.

That said, I am glad that a clear policy has been put in place.

Well done Ken and Frank
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#12689 - 01/28/09 06:00 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2234
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Quote:
Originally posted by newguyonforum:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Knapp:
As most of you know we had a recent incident with a publicly outed sock puppet.

There were many opinions on how the matter should be handled. Some thought that the humiliation was enough punishment, while others thought banning was appropriate.

Well, in order to seek out what was appropriate action, I went to the rules. It was then I discovered that the rules MAKE NO MENTION of sock puppets, nor did I find it stated abywhere "Do this and you will be banned". [/b]
...so then why isn't everyone given a fair chance as of the decision? If there was no mention of sock puppets in the rules, it would appear that Pianomadam was playing within those rules at that time, as were a number of other individuals that hadn't been caught.

Although I don't have a personal interest in having Pianomadam nor TFLF stay, it seems that banning them for previous behaviour is punishing them for breaking rules that were not (and still are not) in place.

Does this mean then, that it is open season for exposing the rest of the culprits on here?

Is this action sent as a warning to only to future offenders, or can we/should we hunt around and look for socks in the history and then report them to the mods?

Please understand that I am all for enforcing the rules, but I believe the action taken in this case is not an example of that taking place, but rather a response to some very emotional reactions to an event with a self-serving member.

Also, I think it wise to remember that this forum, since it includes dealers and technicians, will always include advice/opinions/FUD tactics from many more undiscovered, and slightly more crafty Pianomadams. This is one of the reasons Piano World will remain a very dangerous place to those seeking honest and impartial guidance or advice. Not that there isn't some excellent advice given on here, but really, how many new piano buyers can separate the real information from the clever obfuscation? And how many new piano buyers will be influenced by how many positive hits brand x has compared to the negative hits brand y has?


Interesting to see how everything plays out from here... [/b]
No, it's not. As I said in my original post it was always up to the moderator(s) and Frank B. how situations should be handled. There have been people banned as socks in the past. The problem was that everyone was screaming that the rules were broken and there was not an actual rule. I do not for one minute believe that anyone playing sock puppet believed that it was ok to do. Especially with all the talk on here over the years about it. And with all the talk about "why don't they enforce the rules", I never saw anybody say, "wait a munute, there's no rule against it". Nobody checked for themselves - it was all assumed. Now it's not.

This was a tough decision and all you've said was taken into consideration. It's easy when you're dealing with mean people. Neither of these people are mean.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#12690 - 01/28/09 07:45 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1243
While the rules don't specifically prohibit socks, they do prohibit self-promotion. IMO, having just re-read the rules, PM was guilty of violating several of them - sublty and indirectly, yes - but perhaps that's even worse.

Regardless of all that, not banning PM would have made a sad statement about the importance of truth, accuracy, and credibility on this forum.

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#12691 - 01/28/09 09:57 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2737
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I spoke out about enforcing the rules, but always assumed there was one. As Ken noted this subject has come up many times so there is no doubt in my mind that the guilty parties knew the potential consequences. I am very pleased to know that there is now a clear policy and that those who have been caught have suffered an appropriate consequence. PW will be a better place for this. Thank you.

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#12692 - 01/28/09 10:22 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
tanjinjack Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 851
Loc: Malaysia
Ken,

I see no addition of rules about sock puppeting.
The sticky on Piano Forum for Industry Pros and the rules & guidelines at the What's Hot section has no change as well.

I believe it's wise to add them so that future dealers that join PW can learn that PW don't tolerate sock puppeting.

Thank you.

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#12693 - 01/28/09 10:26 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
WillisWill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Charlottesville, VA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Goodbye all and best of luck ;\) [/b]
I'm sure we'll see you soon
_________________________
The posts are coming from inside the house! Repeat, the posts are coming from inside the house!

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#12694 - 01/28/09 11:24 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
windsound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 177
Loc: IL
Thank you, Ken and Frank.

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#12695 - 01/28/09 11:37 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8529
Loc: Georgia, USA
It has always amazed me why someone would do such a thing (sock-puppeting) in the first place. In fact, it took me a while to figure out what a sock-puppet was to start with. (PW is indeed an educational institution \:D )

I don’t know… maybe I’m just gullible. Thanks for protecting the gullible, Ken and Frank.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#12696 - 01/28/09 11:49 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1906
Loc: El Cajon, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Lurksalot:
While the rules don't specifically prohibit socks, they do prohibit self-promotion. IMO, having just re-read the rules, PM was guilty of violating several of them - sublty and indirectly, yes - but perhaps that's even worse.

Regardless of all that, not banning PM would have made a sad statement about the importance of truth, accuracy, and credibility on this forum. [/b]
From http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/9462.html :
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano World:
Stop the Self-Promotion![/b]
It is NOT ACCEPTABLE[/b] for you to create posts thinly disguised as an innocent discussion when in fact they are nothing more than a promotion for your business.

If you make a genuine effort to be honest and helpful, you just may pick up some business because people trust you. That's fine, I have no problem with that. Anything beyond that, see our Professional Advertising options.

Some Guidelines:[/b]

Not Necessarily Self Promotion...[/b]
If a private individual is enthusiastic about a brand and talks about it a lot, it's not self-promotion. (quick side question about this one... I am self-employed as a piano tuner/technician, and an associate member of PTG. (I used to briefly (for a couple weeks or so) work for a local Baldwin dealer before Ric Overton bought them, and around the same time lost my job tuning for a local Steinway/Yamaha dealer due to "conflict of interest".) I happen to like Baldwin Hamilton studio upright pianos, especially older ones like late 1940s to early 1960s, and often post to that effect. Would I fall into the category of this rule, or since I am a technician, have worked for a Baldwin dealer in the past, and happen to currently own two aforementioned pianos, should I be more careful?)

Now for what we do consider self-promotion:[/b]

*snip*
If you're in the business and hide yourself behind an alias[/b] to talk down/up a brand you're self promoting.
*snip*

This is not all encompassing and there can be exceptions to the cases stated above, but this is a general idea on how we view the subject.
And I'm actually in the same boat Rickster is/was... I'm not sure I even know what a sock puppet is[/b]!
_________________________
Associate Member - Piano Technicians Guild
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton
1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton
You can right-click my avatar for an option to view a larger version.

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#12697 - 01/28/09 11:55 AM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 556
What would be fun is to set up a forum division (the only one) where banned sock puppets can post whatever they want. That way, for kicks, the rest of us can visit there and know the environment we're in. I'm not afraid of sock puppets. We just have to give them their own little fishbowl where we can observe them for our entertainment.
_________________________
Scott

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#12698 - 01/28/09 02:16 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
honkytonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 305
So is Norbert banned too?
_________________________
Former Piano Salesman

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#12699 - 01/28/09 02:30 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
The only sock puppet I like is Lamb Chop(Shari Lewis) \:D \:D

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#12700 - 01/28/09 04:18 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
scharlott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Fort Thomas, Kentucky
Hi guys! I think I can deduce what a sock puppet is, but I have not seen an actual definition in this thread. Is that where one person assumes two or more identities then stages exchanges between them, generally as a form of self-promotion? If that is correct, it strikes me as dishonest on its face - seems like a good idea to ban it.
Brad

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#12701 - 01/28/09 04:55 PM Re: Socks and banning. (Beware Sock Puppet Masters)
Kenny Blankenship Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Northeast
As one who as pushed the envelope and perhaps been a bit too crass. I will say good call, fair and balanced. Honky, I don't know if Norbert ever hid behind an IP? He may shill and push his stuff right up to the limit of Ken's patience like (some of) the rest of us, but I'm not sure he ever could be considered a sock??? And Steve you were right the other site is not very "interesting."
_________________________
Kenny Blankenship
Selling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)

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