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#1518049 - 09/18/10 07:24 PM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Comparing the PX-330 action to my Kawai MP9000, the PX-330 seems to have more static resistance, but less "hammer feel". If I play very softly, I can feel something like a let-off on the MP9000 (even though it doesn't explicitly have this feature), and once this is overcome, I need very little force to keep the keys bottomed out. On the Casio, it feels slightly like there is a spring, and I have to maintain a greater pressure in order to keep the keys bottomed out. Not having access to real pianos, I can't say for certain which is more authentic, however I prefer the feel of the Kawai.
(and I realise real pianos all behave quite differently) Overall the Kawai feels like a more precise action. (and it's 9 years old) I'll see how much the Casio loosens up with time. I never noticed any "loosening up" of the Kawai though - it just stayed the same and very good. ;^)

Greg.

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#1518135 - 09/18/10 10:10 PM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
This may as well go here - I notice that the Lounge Lizard electric piano software does not work properly with the Casio tri-sensor action. For notes that are partially released and then re-played, LL does not produce any sound at all.

Pianoteq is working fine, as I expected it would because I had already fed it test MIDI before I had bought the Casio. smile (I had done the same tests with EWQLP and Kontakt as well, and I don't expect any problems with them either, although I've seen a report regarding some Galaxy pianos [Kontakt engine] NOT working properly yet)

Ok, I suppose you could argue that LL only does electric pianos, and electric pianos don't have a double-escapement mechanism like a grand piano does. However, I think it would at least be nice to have the option. :P

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (09/18/10 10:44 PM)

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#1518226 - 09/19/10 01:07 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I made a comment some time ago about the difficulty I have playing very rapid "double stabs" on my MP9000. It often doesn't sound right - the second stab will sound a bit exaggerated. I do NOT have this problem on the Casio - it is effortless to play in this style just the way I want, with the second stab sounding subtle and soft, with no obvious break in the sound inbetween each stab. I may do an audio demo later. In fact, an idea I have is to record two tracks simultaneously - one of Pianoteq, and one of Lounge Lizard, just to illustrate how often I am using the middle (third) sensor of this Casio action. (i.e - LL will completely miss out on some notes because it is not responding to the third sensor) I'm not saying that the third sensor is soley responsible for the improvement. It may also be that the Casio has less hammer inertia for me to overcome, and of course the return rate of the keys is important too. (I would not be at all surprised if many semi-weighted 2-sensor actions also behaved to my liking)

I can't think of any recordings that have exactly this stlyle of playing off the top of my head. The (acoustic) piano playing in Abba's "Dancing Queen" is similar, however I am playing faster, and I am emphasing the first note - not the second.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (09/19/10 01:09 AM)

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#1518775 - 09/19/10 11:44 PM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I've done some testing with this "double stab" thing.

The Kawai is also able to do this well, when I use it with Pianoteq. I quickly switched over to an internal sound (the Wurlitzer, albeit slightly customised), and I noticed the problem again. I don't understand what the problem is yet, but I'm quite sure it's not the Kawai action.

The Kawai's top sensor is in ROUGHLY the same position as the Casio's middle sensor - at about the 50% return point. The top sensor of the Casio (i.e - the Note-Off sensor) is at about the 2/3rds release point. So, assuming the Casio's key return rate is roughly on par with most hammer actions, it is vital that software support the third (middle) sensor of the Casio for the maximum possible repetition rate, because the top sensor is quite high up. When I measured the Roland PHAII in a store, I thought it's top sensor was also about the same position as the Casio's top sensor, so perhaps the PHAIII really does improve the repetition rate of the Roland, because the third sensor would allow it to repeat at a lesser key return than the PHAII?

Anyway, coming back to the Casio vs Kawai. Assuming the keys return at about the same rate (which may not be true), then the advantage of the Casio would not be in the repetition rate - it would be a possible improvement for legato playing, due to the fact that the Note-Off is sent at a later time during the key return. Of course, the other advantage of the Casio is that it also allows repetitions to occur without ANY Note-Off being transmitted between each repetition, which simulates the behaviour of a real grand piano. (I'm not noticing this in my "double stab" playing though - both sound about the same)

Regarding Lounge Lizard - I notice that it DOES behave properly when run as a VST - it's only in standalone mode that it ignores the partial repetitions. Very odd.

Greg.

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#1518979 - 09/20/10 10:14 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4350
Loc: Northern NJ
Greg, could it be that the exaggerated second note is due to two notes playing at that point instead of one? If the sound source doesn't enforce piano rules on how it renders incoming MIDI, then that would be possible, no? If you could make a quick MP3 of it I could tell you for sure by examining it in Audition.

Could it also be that the key commands to Lounge Lizard are being filtered somehow by the VST host?
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#1518982 - 09/20/10 10:20 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: dewster]
Galuwen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/10
Posts: 38
Hi,

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?

This would make a big difference whilst playing a VST instrument.

Thx.

Alexander

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#1519348 - 09/20/10 07:15 PM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: dewster]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: dewster
Greg, could it be that the exaggerated second note is due to two notes playing at that point instead of one? If the sound source doesn't enforce piano rules on how it renders incoming MIDI, then that would be possible, no? If you could make a quick MP3 of it I could tell you for sure by examining it in Audition.


I don't think so. Remember, I can reproduce the problem using just the Kawai and it's own internal sounds. I suspect that it're more likely to be a velocity curve problem. The release time may be important too. I may upload the problematic recording, although it's probably not relevant at all to this thread.

FYI, here's how I want it to sound: http://www.box.net/shared/xond3ghlyu This is the PX-330 playing a Wurly preset in Pianoteq. Listen for the very rapid double repeats in the right hand chords. It's working very well. However, as I said, the Kawai can also do this, so this isn't actually a demonstration of any advantage of the Casio's third sensor afterall. Perhaps the Casio is slightly easier to play like this due to it's lighter action.

Quote:
Could it also be that the key commands to Lounge Lizard are being filtered somehow by the VST host?


Maybe, but they've accepted that it's a bug, so I'll just wait for the fix. smile

Thanks,
Greg.

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#1519374 - 09/20/10 08:17 PM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Galuwen]
PeteF Offline
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Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Galuwen
Hi,

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?

This would make a big difference whilst playing a VST instrument.

Thx.

Alexander


Doesn't the PX series blend in its 4 samples in its engine? That would imply to me that it has the appropriate data to do so and should be able to export the same. If there's a free version of MIDI monitoring software for Mac that can do this task I may be able to load it and test this if you're interested?

Pete
_________________________
No that wasn't a bum note! It was my ... "artistic interpretation" emerging.

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#1519581 - 09/21/10 05:39 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Galuwen]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Galuwen

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?


I've watched the velocities on a graph in an external program (Pianoteq) - it most certainly does transmit the normal 1-127 range of velocities. (I have also listened to how both internal sounds an external sounds behave - no problems whatsoever) As Pete said, despite the fact that the internal acoustic piano sounds use samples taken at 4 different velocities, it interpolates these to create intermediate timbre and volume levels. Even if it did NOT blend the timbres at all, it would still play the 4 levels of samples at the correct volume to match the velocity. For example, it sounds to me like the electric piano sounds do NOT use the AIF "morphing", and they only have 2 velocity layers. There is a very noticable change in timbre at the velocity switchpoint. However, it still adjusts the sound LEVEL properly (in tiny steps) within each of these 2 velocity ranges.

Greg.

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#1519607 - 09/21/10 06:45 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: sullivang]
Galuwen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/10
Posts: 38
Hi,

You can use:

http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

It is free and it is for the Mac.

Thx a lot and THX to GREG for the info *HURRRRRAAAYYY*

Alexander

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#1524728 - 09/29/10 12:21 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
NoFingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 84
Loc: USA
Asked this in another post, but thought to ask it here as well. What 3rd party pedals work with the new Privia's? I was thinking of getting the M-Audio sp2 as it has half-pedaling and polarity switch. But are there any others that are good? Any 2 or 3 pedal units out there that work with Privia? Thanks!

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#1524738 - 09/29/10 12:41 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Just a little heads up about the Australian warranty (5 years). I decided to actually read the little warranty slip that came with my PX-330. To my shock, it said 12 months!! Fortunately, though, everyone has assured me that the piano does in fact have a 5 year warranty, however the accessories only have a 12 month warranty.
I have obtained a "Casio EMI Australian Consumer Warranty" document from the distributor. The retailer has also agreed to write on the receipt that I have a 5 year warranty, and I will be taking that precaution as well.

I have urged the distributor to address this shortcoming in their documentation. It was a nasty shock which I would rather not have had.

EDIT: I have now spoken directly to Casio, and they said that the aforementioned document should have been packed with the piano. The warranty slip that I did receive is the standard slip from Japan.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (09/29/10 12:48 AM)

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#1524739 - 09/29/10 12:41 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3080
Loc: Oregon
If I remember correctly, Yamaha pedals have opposite polarity to Casio's, so don't buy one of those. Roland make a couple of nice pedals, particularly the DP10. I don't think you can use third party multi-pedal units with the PX-130.
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#1524744 - 09/29/10 01:04 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: voxpops]
PeteF Offline
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Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Greg, thanks for following that up and letting us know.
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#1524780 - 09/29/10 04:08 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
My PX-330 has a weak headphone output. It cannot drive either my HD-570 or AKG601 sets with sufficient level. It can drive my multimedia headphones loud enough though.

I do not have this problem with my Kawai MP9000.

No, I am not surprised about this.

Greg.

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#1524786 - 09/29/10 04:39 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: sullivang]
PeteF Offline
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Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Greg, I'm in the process of chasing down a mixer right now so I can take the audio from both the Casio and and the computer and feed both to my headphones. It's basically so I can more easily play along with DVDs and CDs (at the moment I need to play with one ear off) however it would also solve your problem if you used either an external mixer or even a simple headphone amp and fed it from the 6.5 mm audio outputs.

Pete
_________________________
No that wasn't a bum note! It was my ... "artistic interpretation" emerging.

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#1524789 - 09/29/10 04:54 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Thanks Pete, yes, I have an external headphone amp and it is fine. (I just use the headphone output of my integrated hi-fi amp, which has PLENTY of drive)

Greg.

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#1524790 - 09/29/10 04:57 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Btw I am not pooh-poohing my Casio - I really LOVE it for what it is. I am just making observations.

Greg.

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#1524802 - 09/29/10 05:42 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
Vectistim Offline
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Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Reading, UK
My headphone outputs must have the extra oompf that yours are missing, I'm sure you could strap someone in, turn the volume up and use it as a torture device.

My _understanding_ is that half pedalling will only work using Casio's 3 pedal array, I don't believe you will get it if you simply plug a 3rd party pedal into the standard pedal input.

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#1524804 - 09/29/10 05:52 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Vectistim]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Vectistim
My headphone outputs must have the extra oompf that yours are missing, I'm sure you could strap someone in, turn the volume up and use it as a torture device.


It depends on the headphones. My multimedia headset can go quite loud. (but still not as loud as yours seems to) What headphones are you using, exactly? Mind you, I appreciate that you might have better hearing than me. smile
Do you also have the PX-330, or do you have another model?

RE: the pedal - that was my understanding too.

Greg.

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#1524817 - 09/29/10 06:31 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
Vectistim Offline
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Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Reading, UK
I've got some Stagg ones that are ridiculously loud, I think its these ones:
http://rockingrooster.co.uk/productStaggSHP1200HHeadphones-8.99.html
although I can't work out how you wear them as they don't seem to be adjustable.
I've tried round the neck and that doesn't work either.

Then I've got some over ear Sony headphones that must be about 20-25 years old, (can't tell you the model number from here) and they seem very good to me.

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#1524822 - 09/29/10 06:39 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Thanks. Those Staggs are only 32 ohms, so they will be easier to drive than either of my good quality sets (64 ohms for the HD570, 120 ohms for the AKG 601s). It appears that my multimedia headset is also 32 ohms, probably. (they're an old set of Verbatims, and the closest model I can see on their website is 32 ohms)

Greg.

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#1524825 - 09/29/10 06:45 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Btw, I remember that when I got the HD-570s, they produced less volume for a given volume setting on my amp than my previous set, which were the HD-465. I see that the HD-465 also had an impedance of 32 ohms. ;^) (I hated those HD-465s though! They're in the bin now)

Greg.

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#1524830 - 09/29/10 07:09 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: sullivang]
PeteF Offline
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Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Actually, assuming you're driving the headphones with a pretty conventional solid-state amplifier (as all DPs do), then the impedance is largely immaterial. How loud the headphones will sound is basically a function of their sensitivity, in this case the sound pressure level per milliwatt of input power. The sensitivity level can vary markedly between different headphone models and types, the HD-570, at 97dB is quite an inefficient model when compared to the the HD-465 at 110dB
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#1524832 - 09/29/10 07:15 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Ok. I just thought that there was SOME correlation between impedance and sound level, because the high impedance headphones require a higher voltage to drive them. Not all headphone amps have sufficient voltage swing to drive them. Is this not correct?

Just as an example, the K601s have a sensitivity of 101dB, which is a bit better than the HD570s (97dB). However, the HD570s sound louder to me than the K601s. I suggest that this could be due to the fact that the Casio simply doesn't have sufficient voltage swing to drive the higher impedance K601s.

I've decided that the sound level using the HD570 is JUST enough to be comfortable. I'd prefer it to go a bit louder though. The level with the K601s is not enough for me. (this is probably partly due to the fact that the K601s do not emphasise the bass like the HD570s do)

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (09/29/10 07:44 AM)

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#1524856 - 09/29/10 08:09 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Extract from http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/17179/please-explain-headphone-sensitivity :

"The sensitivity rating is usually for 1 milliwatt POWER input to the phones and a corresponding sound pressure level (SPL) output (USUALLY 102 to 106 dB SPL output for moderate to high sensitivity rated phones).

However, connecting different sets of phones with the same 1 milliwatt to SPL output sensitivity rating to the same headphones amplifier output may, or may not give corresponding equal or loud enough SPL operation!

The impedance (the ohms rating of the phones voice coil) determines how much audio 'voltage' needs be applied to get that '1 milliwatt' or more power into the phone's motor circuit.

For example: A low 16 to 45 ohm headphone (low ohms impedance that's typical for Sony headphones) will easily get to operate for many milliwatts for providing close to live loudness on battery powered portable equipment that typically output only .5-1.5 volts RMS volts output.

A 65 to 600 ohms phones set impedance (higher ohms typical of Sennheiser, Beyer, & AKG headphones). will require a higher headphones amplifier output voltage signal to get the same milliwatts into the phones voice coil for providing equal loudness.

Most of these higher impedance phones require connection to a headphone amp circuit that has ability to drive at least 2-6 Volts RMS to get reasonable loudness for phones listening. Not the type of headphone to use on most portable powered deck's with low voltage phones outputs. These high ohms phones really need a an AC powered amplifier's headphone jack or even direct connection to 10 watt or more power amp's speaker outputs for realistic (loud) listening. There are headphone amps available for this purpose and some are battery powered with at least (1 or 2) 9 volt batteries, the minimum supply needed for higher impedance phones to work at reasonable loudness.

Bottom line: Phones sensitivity is only a measure of the ability to play loud enough only if comparing phones with about the same ohms impedance that are being driven by the same headphone amplifier.

Best before buying is to try out the phones on the exact equipment you to use while playing typical sounds of interest."

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#1524873 - 09/29/10 08:51 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: sullivang]
PeteF Offline
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Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Ok. I just thought that there was SOME correlation between impedance and sound level, because the high impedance headphones require a higher voltage to drive them. Not all headphone amps have sufficient voltage swing to drive them. Is this not correct?


Yes there is a correlation, but not really in this context. Firstly, the 3 headphones you quoted are not especially high impedance. Of course "high" is a relative term, but to me (and I'd suggest many others from this field) that means 300 or possibly even 600 ohms impedance. 120 isn't especially high, and if you're having trouble driving them with the Casio then I'm in a world of doo-doo, because I have a new pair of HD-650s that I will no doubt also want to use on this and they're 300 ohms!!!!

The other thing is that the sensitivity is given at a specific power level. What that means is that for a lower impedance headphone, less voltage is required to achieve the same amount of power. This will be seen as a different setting on the volume control, and that may cause some to draw a false conclusion.

I have yet to pull the PX apart to see how they drive this stage, but normally most mains powered amps are capable of enough peak-to-peak voltage to drive high impedance headphones to quite high sound pressure levels. However I'll certainly post if it has trouble driving a high impedance load.

Pete

Edit: Greg, we posted at the same time but I'm not quite sure what the point was you were trying to make by that cut and paste. Google is a terrific tool, but the search results need to be considered in context. That article was really comparing a very different situation to here. Firstly, they were addressing purchasers of headphones who may possibly be considering using them on devices such as iPods etc, that simply cannot generate the p-p voltages required to drive high impedance headphones to high SPL. Secondly, at the end of the day, this is an acoustic piano we're trying to replicate, not the front row of a Black Sabbath concert. Just how loud do you want a piano to sound? wink


Edited by PeteF (09/29/10 09:07 AM)
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#1524878 - 09/29/10 09:04 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Of course a lower impedance will require less voltage - Power = V^2/R! ;^)

Btw, the PX-330 is not mains powered, really - it runs off 12V DC.
(yes, the plugpack is of course "mains powered")

I will be curious to see how you go with your HD650s. I will be VERY surprised if they are loud enough for you.

Greg.

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#1524885 - 09/29/10 09:18 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Btw, I am glad it is 12V DC, because that may allow it to be battery operated. I've measured the power - despite being rated at 18W, it typically only draws a few watts, and that's the AC input power to the plugpack, too, with speakers going.

Greg.

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#1524891 - 09/29/10 09:30 AM Re: Casio New PX 130, PX 330, PX 730 Reviews [Re: Nikalette]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2215
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Pete,
re: your EDIT:, I posted the cut & paste because I felt that it was strongly supporting the point I was trying to make: the impedance of the headphones matters as well as the efficiency/sensitivity. ;^)

Just tried a set of very cheap ear buds: VERY VERY loud, but no bass or treble - terrible fidelity. smile

Greg.

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This is punny
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A brisk Fall day, a room to myself, and a large piano.
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Mixer for live-use
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Question on Kawai CA65 functions
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40 year old self-taught in love with Bach - What to do?
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