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What are those special needs?

Hogwash might be more accurate (and is more charitable than some other synonyms come to mind).

Steven

I think anyone specializing in the teaching adults is pleased to be teaching adults. Sometimes adults find themselves in piano studios where the majority is children 6 years and up but that should not make the adult student feel conspicuously out of place, or to assume that the teacher is making a special dispensation for the adult student.

It would not be a favor to the adult student if the teacher who prefers children to adult learners made a place for the adult student. That is something the adult student should be clear in asking the teacher. "Do you enjoy teaching adults?" Or, "Have you successfully taught adults?"

As for special needs, they are not really special needs when you look at the difference between children as musicians and adults as musicians. Totally different ball game! That does not mean adults are problematic as a group. Individuals present different personalities, habits, attitudes, values and beliefs some of which work in their behalf in music lessons, and some of which work against them. Adults, if it's not an insult, I hope not, just have a little more "baggage" that we deal with, while children have a lot less "baggage" in that they are not completely formed with the opinions and lifes experiences that are part of an adult's reality.

We must open doors between adults and teachers of adults so that we can have the freedom to be ourselves while adapting to the characteristics of what constitutes a life long learning musician. We bring some talents to music lessons but we also work to acquire skills, too. The path that the teacher and adult learner is on must be negotiated between them on a give and take basis. We much each be willing to explore adapting to the other a little bit while creating the relationship that works best for both of us.

Betty Patnude

A lot depends on the teacher.

At the moment, I don't have any adult students. I have taught adult students in the past, but the results are not good. Most of them quit within 3 lessons, probably due to their busy schedules and no practice time at home.

One of my colleagues has 5 adult students, who are all independently wealthy and retired. These adult students are more serious about piano and can stay on for the long haul.

It is definitely a niche market.

I agree with matching personalities, etc. but the three things laid out above are not necessarily mutually exclusive to a teacher. There are many (including myself) who are well-qualified and able to meet all the above criteria. I have students who do classical, some do pop, some are "for fun students", others are more serious, etc. As a teacher it's great to have a niche, but *even better* to be able to meet many different needs for different types of students -- it's definitely been the recipe for success in my experience.

~Jennifer Eklund

With comments like that, Gyro's claims about the "contemptuousness" of some teachers toward adult beginners start to sound a little less like balderdash.

I would argue that adults are, in many ways, even easier and can be more rewarding to teach than children. One big difference: There aren't many adults who are taking lessons only because their parents are making them. Most adults are truly intrinsically motivated. They have generally greater verbal skills, and are usually better behaved.

I do think Betty's comment raises an important caveat: From the perspective of the adult beginner, it's best if you can find a teacher who's genuinely enthusiastic about working with adults, rather than one who takes them on only grudgingly--with pre-existing negative expectations about their "baggage" or work ethic or seriousness--simply because they need to fill empty slots in their studio.

My charitable side goes out the window when this sort of drivel gets repeated by the same person without any substantial evidence to support his ideas. He speaks from his own experience, which is fine and I'm sorry it is so jaded, but to then draw broad generalizations with that misrepresents reality.

I teach, and I know many teachers in my area as well, who teach adults. At least 6, and this is not a metropolitan area. There are some teachers who specialize in teaching kids, sure, just like you have some contractors who specialize in commercial construction, instrument makers who specialize in one type of instrument, etc. I personally would not want a commercial contractor to build my house, because it would end up looking like an institution, nor would I want a violin maker to make my tuba (if I played one, that is). So why would an adult want a teacher who does not know how to teach adults?

The fact that teachers are upfront in saying they don't take adults is the best thing they can do. They are being honest and quick about it so that you can move onto the next person. Adults do have different needs that frankly, require the teacher to be more flexible in the styles they teach. If a teacher is not comfortable with that, then it is for the best that they do not take an adult.

It is important, however, for the adult student to understand that there *is* a difference in the demands of an adult student. Then on top of that, the OP needs to be able to switch lesson times each week (or was it miss or reschedule to something?), which really makes it hard for learning even in the best of situations. Lessons every other week or once a month are fine for the advanced pianist, but for a beginner or intermediate it spells disaster. I don't recall if the OP mentioned what level of playing they are, but that is a big factor as well.

Well, I agree. And just for the record, the student with the most "baggage" of any I've ever taught was a teenage boy. My adult students are a serious lot and are with me because they want to work on their piano playing. One or two of them have self-confidence issues, but so have many children I've taught (together with some other significant issues as well!).
I think it was just that he needed an evening or a weekend spot because of work, not that he wanted to do any of the things you list.

Monica,

We're posting in the piano teacher's forum and the work "baggage" used with adults is well known to teachers. This is teacher talk and it's too bad that it means something different to you. You think we are discrediting adults and enjoying it. Quite the opposite is true, actually.

Baggage simply means that adults have a lot of things going on in their lives, big responsibilities to family, job, church, community, whatever fits into their daily lives and makes demands of their time.
1) Very often adults have to cancel their appointments because something more important came up.
2) Very often adults are not prepared because they didn't get "enough" time to practice.
3) Very often adults want to play "perfectly" and have little tolerance for making mistakes something that teachers know is going to happen in first lessons and even later. What we aspire to do in learning to be musical has a high difficulty factor of mental and physical coordination.
4) Very often it becomes almost impossible to work with some adult beginners because they do not tolerate having a listener hear them when they are making mistakes. Mistakes happen, it's not the end of the world but we do have to fix them which means teachers call attention to mistakes and give a corrective instruction. Well, how popular do you think that is to an adult?

I have a lot of experience with adults. Some have been so wonderful to work with because they take their lessons seriously and keep their committments to practice and to attend lessons. Those who expect us comply to their demands are not so nifty to work with. It's that simple.

There is no hostility on my part to any adult learners. I have many, many friends in my life who used to be students, some were adults and some were children who have grown up.

You seem to enjoy throwing big words around, borrowing "contemptuousness" from Gyro and applying it to me. You don't know how utterly wrong you are about my intentions, attitudes, behavior, and ethics. It is time for you to take a break from making comments about me as you have proven many times that you know nothing about me as a person nor as a teacher and you continue to gripe about my comments. You are a great example of an self taught adult who has baggage and I am your unwilling victim who receives an awful lot of it here on Piano World Forum.

Betty Patnude

typo - who changed to how

Hi Betty,

I'm pleased to see you qualify your statements about adult beginners in this post ("Very often...") rather than make blanket statements that imply that all adult beginners have baggage.

Have a nice night.




I agree completely. I'd much rather have a teacher simply say "no, I don't take adult students" than to initiate a teaching relationship that leaves both sides uncomfortable and unhappy.

"baggage" is "teacher talk"!?!? And is well-known to teachers? And it means "a lot going on in their lives" that "makes demands of their time" !?!?

Perhaps the above *is* the true meaning of "baggage", and someone will let me know - I suppose one could use it that way. But when I hear the word "baggage" used it generally refers to negative experiences and responses to them that can negatively impact one's current experiences.



Whew! If "baggage" means, to you, what you earlier claim it means, then you've just said that Monica has a lot of demands on her time. Probably true. But why that word should be used in the above sentence with such vitriol is beyond me. Or why the fact that Monica has a lot of demands on her time, since that's what "baggage" means to you, means that she says things that you think make you an unwilling victim of it, I don't know. Something doesn't make sense here.

Of course, the vitriol in the second quote *could* mean that you actually do think the word "baggage" has negative connotations beyond just having so many demands on one's time that it might be hard to fit in piano practice In which case, added to many many other posts in which you have expressed your opinion of adult learners and self-teachers, adds to the evidence, to me, that Monica's right - the contemptuousness comes through.

Sigh.

Cathy

From my own experience as an adult student, I found that teachers were slightly reluctant or guarded at first, because many of the points Betty makes are true. Teachers have been disappointed and don't want to invest in adult students who are going to fail and then be disappointed themselves. The teachers I've had have become warm and enthusiastic after a few lessons when they realize that I do have a commitment to learning piano. I think this would be true of many teachers.

Surprisingly enough, I have run into adult students who never practiced. They have more than enough excuses as to why not. So not all of them are self-motivated. Some haven't quite learned the whole "you get out what you put into it" concept. I do my best to instill and inspire that in them, but some quit before getting it. This is very frustrating for me to witness in any student, but what makes it unique for adults, is that they have much more responsibility than children. Their excuses might really be good ones, losing a job and having to work extra hours at a part-time job to make ends meet, family matters, sick children...all of these things can (and I think often must) take precedence over piano practice. But when those excuses have no end, one does wonder if this is really the best time for the student to pick up a hobby like piano. Some enjoy the lessons and whatever they can get out of it, no matter how slow their progress, and as a teacher, I have to be willing to accept that.

In general, I'd say, adults have more say in the overall learning process, and for some teachers, that is just not their thing. It can even be viewed as "baggage". With adults, I find myself often trying to find a balance between meeting their desires and meeting their needs, between accepting things as they are with their busy lives, and pushing them to stretch themselves musically. Sometimes I push too much and have to back off, other times I don't push enough and no progress is made. This balancing act is the toughest part of teaching, I think, and it is often more prevalent when teaching adults. I don't see this as a drawback, it just is what it is. I look forward to working with my adult students. It is refreshing to deal with someone who has questions and truly wants to understand things that I usually have to force-feed the kids .

If a teacher is not comfortable with this, as I've said before, then there is no good reason for her or him to take adult students. Adults, just understand that there are teachers out there who truly derive pleasure from teaching adults, and that is who you need to find.

Morodiene - I found your post to be well-thought out and reasonable. You have addressed the issues adults have realistically, as well as pointing out that adults, like those in any age group, differ from each other in their practice habits (or lack of them ) I'm sure some adults are a pain in the patooty , and I'm sure some aren't. Pretty much what one can say of any group.

And as you and others have said, choosing, as a teacher, to teach the demographic with which you are most comfortable is a reasonable choice, and says nothing about whether or not you are a good teacher - it is simply true that noone can be the right teacher for everyone. And no student is the right student for every teacher. It's good that there's options for all of us.

Cathy