Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Your opinion, please! Have I bought junk?

Dear technicians,

As some of you may know, I recently bought an Ed. Seiler upright here in Pretoria. It was made in about 1922.

When I viewed and played the instrument at the piano builder's showroom, I was impressed by its large and singing sound, almost "glassy". It was the first time I bought a piano. The builder gave me a verbal 5-year guarantee (he undertook to bring a written version when he comes after about 8 weeks to tune), including the structure, i.e. pinblock, frame, soundboard, etc. - but not wear and tear. The builder / tuner was widely recommended to me. He is also used by the local university to tune their concert grands.

When I asked the builder/dealer/tech whether he foresaw any repairs required in the future, he said: "No, only annual tuning. The rest is fine."

Because of all these factors, and because I was a first-time buyer and more ignorant at that stage, I did not inspect the instrument to the finest detail. I also did not test the finer nuances of the action in soft play, which I realise I should have. I did notice some uneven notes, but thought that he would see to these when he comes for the tuning.

So I bought the piano for about US $ 2,500 - including a solid oak piano chair, delivery and first tuning.

After we played on the instrument for a week or two, we noticed that certain notes don't speak when playing softly. Others sounded twice.

I removed the action (I have good basic mechanical skills, so please don't chide me here, that's not the point) and saw that numerous butt return springs were broken. I told the tech about this, and he agreed to collect the action to replace these. However, the actual problem is sticky hinges. Even with the new springs, if I depress the key slowly, some hammers stay in the same position after the jack has been released. Some actually fall towards the string!

I already sensed some tension between myself and the tech, because:
... he originally delivered the wrong chair and was not very pleased when I came to collect the one I had originally chosen,
... he was not very amicable about replacing the butt springs.

So I rather decided to look into matters myself - at least those that I could confidently handle with my level of mechanical skill.

This may go against your grain as professional techs, but that was my call, and I stand by it. Not wanting to compare a piano to an engine, but I have done two engine overhauls, and refurbished a carburetor, and do many other small and large repairs by myself - so my hands are not entirely useless. If some of you find yourself irritated, feel free to close this thread - for the rest, please bear with me.

First of all I re-glued some loose panels in the removable section of the intrument housing.

Then I saw that the keys were not all level (varied by up to 1 mm), and the depth of movement also varied between about 9 and 10 mm. I moved some of the paper shims to achieve a much more even height and travel.

I then checked the hammer travel and found this to be 47 to 49 mm, which is OK according to an austrian tech I had contacted on a german piano forum), then checked the release distance from the string. These varied widely, from about 3 mm to 6 mm. In order to get the piano more playable, I then set them more equally, at about 4 mm (slightly less in the treble). This got the non-speaking notes to speak once again.

The unregulated and sticky action made me quite disappointed in the deal. I wanted to discuss this with the tech when he came for the tuning.

However, my biggest problem is that when the german forum asked me to take some pictures, I detected some cracks in both bridges: in the very treble section, but more seriously in the bass bridge. There may also be a crack in the pin-block, but I'm not sure.

I've discussed these problems in the german piano forum, and have received some (pretty unanimous) opinions, but I also wanted to hear your opinions, please.

I've made numerous photographs and uploaded them here. The english captions follow after the german ones. Beware, the photos are quite large, for quality purposes.

At the top right of the pictures is a magnifying glass for close-up viewing. Note: the high-quality version takes a while to load, so at first it looks fuzzy.

The most telling photos are nos. 14, 17, 25 to 33, 38, 44 to 51, 55 and 56.

Those of you who haven't walked away in anger, please be so kind as to give me your considered opinion on this instrument, especially the structural defects. As I mentioned, I have good mechanical skills, and if the tech doesn't want to co-operate, I would even be prepared to invest some time, money and effort into the action. But I need to know whether the structure is worth any effort at all, or whether I've essentially bought a wreck.

The crack in the soundboard is currently not causing any buzz or noises, as far as I can hear.

It's a real shame, because we bought the piano for its looks and pleasant sound...

Your german and austrian colleagues are quite unanimous that the structural defects are not trivial, and could well lead to the need for large repairs in the foreseeable future. They also found the general condition of the piano to be so poor that any self-respecting dealer/builder/tech should actually not have sold it to me in the first place. They have advised me to try and reverse the sale. This is causing me much grief.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to describe the situation as best I could.

Regards,
Mark

My instinct at this point is to agree with the German and Austrian technicians.

In English we have phrases to cover this:

1 - You got 'hosed', 'screwed', 'cheated'.
2 - 'If your piano was a horse, we would shoot it.'
3 - 'Buyer beware'

Next time, hire a technician to fully check out a piano before you buy it. Get all warranties in writing.

Sorry - that's the best I can offer you.

Hi Randy,

I hear you. However, would you go so far as to hire a technician when buying a piano from someone who is himself widely recommended around town, both as tuner and technician? I would have worried that he would be affronted by me, pitching up at his front door with one of his "rivals".

I felt that I really had no other option (and no real NEED for another option) but to trust his good reputation.

By the way, I haven't spoken to the seller about this yet, because I first want to try and get hold of the written guarantee.

Regards,
Mark

"I would have worried that he would be affronted by me, pitching up at his front door with one of his "rivals".

"I felt that I really had no other option (and no real NEED for another option) but to trust his good reputation."

It is a sad story. I would stop messing with the action and the glueing of panels, get hold of the written guarantee, and try to reverse the sale amicably. If this fails, I can tell you we did have a member here who resolved such a case through our small claims court system... after a fair amount of time and trouble. She prevailed by presenting a written evaluation from another technician, that detailed the instrument's problems and the estimated cost to set them right, and showed that the seller had been advised of the problems, had agreed to fix them, and hadn't.

It was kind of a big deal for her; lots of anxiety and anger, uncertainty if the seller would comply with the court order. Now she plays a digital. I hope that your outcome is easier... but a broken bridge and pinblock is not an easy fix-up. A broken action can run up a few bucks of repairs, too.

I guess I could also say you could, in a perfectly nice way, have any used piano inspected by an independent tech employed by you, no matter who the seller was. If a seller doesn't want this (and it does happen), it's a red flag to shop elsewhere.

Good luck with it. It would be nice if you'd let us know the outcome.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the comments. I've already taken some legal advice on the matter. Unfortunately, our small claims court system is limited to claims of up to about US $ 1,000. So if push comes to shove, I would have to take this matter to a proper magistrate's court.

But I really would like to resolve it amicably. First step is to get hold of that written guarantee, without letting on that something is amiss...

And regarding your advice to stop messing around with the action: yes, ever since it's become clear to me that I want to return the instrument, I have indeed stopped messing around with the action. (I can, however, say with a clean conscience that even my layman's attempts have left the action in a much more playable and even state than when it was delivered.)

I'll keep you posted.

Regards,
Mark

Not a tech, but I would think that while you seemed to be focused on the technical aspects of working on the piano yourself that the biggest potential downside of taking the action that you did is the potential that it would give the seller grounds to void at least part of your warranty (i.e. that since you messed with the action, that he honor the warranty regarding any defects in the action since some may have been caused by you're monkeying around with it). Not saying that's what he would do, but I think I would have either hired a tech to do the work or simply waited for the seller to address the issues. Again, not that I don't think you're technically capable, but simply a CYA move since it was newly bought.

Hello again,

Just to take up the last point: the expression "messing" was Jeff's, just as "monkeying" was bitWrangler's. Personally I neither agree with these words, nor appreciate them - I reiterate: nothing went wrong with the action when I worked on it, to the contrary - the piano is MORE playable than when I bought it. But then again, I'm the one asking for opinions here, and if you classify this as "messing" and "monkeying", I'll have to accept that.

It's debatable whether the action is included in the guarantee anyway. The guarantee covers structural items, not wear and tear items.

Oh, and sorry to say, I don't know what "CYA move" means.

By the way, I did mention the sticky action to the tech who sold me the instrument. He said that the new butt springs would probably fix the problem (which they didn't), and if the problem persisted, he would lubricate the action with "Ballistol", a type of gun-preserving oil. Is that what you would do? Leave it to the "oiling specialist"?

I wouldn't. Oiling is probably what caused the problem in the first place.

And what do you do with a seller who already becomes up-tight during your first complaint, while you actually have two or three more complaints? Go to a different tech, I hear you say?

Well, if I had employed a different tech to fix the problems, I would have had to pay. And frankly, I don't think that's fair either. I buy a piano that is presented to me as intact, and then have to have it fixed at my cost? Somehow I don't think so.

So, it's either the grumpy seller with his preserving oil, or a different tech at my cost. Read: between a rock and a hard place.

I hope that explains where my "messing" and "monkeying" came from.

But, with all due respect, all of that is really beside the point. This thread was actually meant as a request for you guys to judge the severity of the structural defects, according to the pictures. The cracks in the soundboard and bridges have absolutely nothing to do with my "messing" and "monkeying".

But sadly, I haven't actually seen much evaluation of the severity of those structural defects - except perhaps Randy likening the piano to a horse in serious need of euthanasia.

So what do I do if the tech maintains that the cracks are not life threatening? Do I have to accept that? Or are there some objective counter-arguments that I can bring into the discussion?

That's the type of info I was hoping for.

Perhaps I should have kept my original post much shorter, simply posted three or four pics without any background info, and simply asked opinions. But to me, that's bad netiquette... I believe it's good manners to give as much background as possible - but that doesn't seem to have worked in this thread.

Regards,
Mark

Didn't mean to offend you by saying "messing around with the action," Mark. I don't doubt you improved it; I was thinking of the issue of being able to return it, and how your adjustments might possibly complicate the picture. Again, best of luck with it.

Sorry, also didn't mean to offend. I was simply opining that the seller may classify what you did as "messing" and "monkeying", and if he does, that he may use this against you in any warranty dispute. I am not a tech and from only your post I can in no way make any type of objective assessment of what you did with your piano.



It means "Cover Your A** (your behind, your tush, etc)". Basically by not messing with the piano yourself, you prevent any scenarios like the above from having a chance of occurring (the seller blaming you for at least part of the problems).

Again, just perspectives from a customer standpoint. To relate it to something I have more knowledge of, if I had recently purchased a bicycle and I felt that the crank was binding on part of it's stroke, I could pull the cranks and inspect the bottom bracket for problems and rebuild it if necessary. However, I wouldn't since A) my expectation would be that the bicycle shouldn't have that problem and B) I don't want to be blamed for either causing or exacerbating the problem. But that's just me. Point being that it doesn't come down to an assessment of ones technical abilities, but simply one of assessing liability.

You should never feel as if you can't bring your own technician with you under any circumstances.

One time I lost a sale to a slimeball who simply told the customer that she'd be better off buying his Kimball instead of my Baldwin. I told him there is no way any Kimball is better than the Baldwin I was selling, and he simply said "that's a matter of opinion."

Fine. He didn't do what she paid him to do. He wasn't even a real technician anyway, but he didn't do an objective assessment of my piano. He simply glanced at it and told her how much prettier his piano was compared to mine.

Anyway, back to the subject. Just because another technician is selling a piano, doesn't mean that a second technician can't come in on your behalf and thoroughly check out the piano.

And yes, get that written guarantee NOW if you can, before the seller knows what's going on.

Hi Jeff, bW and Randy,

"Point being that it doesn't come down to an assessment of ones technical abilities, but simply one of assessing liability."

OK, point taken - thanks for the clarification.

What I find really difficult, is to get hold of an independent/objective and competent tech. I've visited the webpage of the South African Association of Professional Piano Tuners. I have visited one of them (when I was still looking for a piano), and he was either not competent or simply not interested to answer my questions about the instrument I was considering. Another tuner on the webpage has, according to an accompanist friend of mine, done more damage than good to her piano. His name also appears on some keys in my piano, so he's been "at it" in the past. At some point, I decided to go by personal recommendation and "business footprint". The tech that I ended up buying my piano from, was, as mentioned earlier, widely recommended, and works for various schools and even services the concert grands of our university.

Basically my question is:

To choose a piano, you need it assessed by a reliable tech with no vested interests.
But how do choose such a tech? Does such an animal exist at all? (Randy's Kimball-slimeball is a classic case in point!)

It's the combination of technical and social factors that's giving me grief. Even on this forum, I often read divergent opinions... And then the one "pro" gets all huffed-up, hot-under-the-collar with the other "pro". As a layman, how do I decide who is right and who isn't?

And if I leave everything to the "professionals", does that protect me from the slimeballs out there?

Regards,
Mark

The short answer is "Yes". There are plenty of us who can easily distinguish our personal interests from those of our clients, and who regularily advise honestly on purchases.

I charge a good fee to appraise a piano, and I never, ever place myself into the matter, other than as an appraiser. I don't attempt to purchase the piano at discount that I'm appraising, and I never advocate for the sale of one of my own instruments against the appraisal piano. In other words, I don't cheat.

And, I would guess that the "slimeballs" are few and far between...you will find that the high percentage of those good folks who post here , for example, are ethical and honorable people.

I'm sorry for your loss on the purchase of your current piano, and I'm sure you will seek out, and obtain, a disinterested technician's opinion next time. With any luck, you'll find somebody who will help you find a wonderful piano!

RPD

If I have a similar piano for sale as that which I'm requested to assess, I will recuse myself from the job. If a potential buyer asks me if it's okay that they hire another tech to check out my piano I ALWAYS welcome them to do so.

But now I insist that they hire a QUALIFIED tech, and to make sure that person isn't going to try to sell them a piano.

I've had several local technicians check out pianos in my shop on behalf of the buyer. It's a good experience - to prep a good piano and offer it at a competitive price, to then have another technician confirm the value to the buyer.

In my case, it always works in my favor, if the technician is honest and capable.

Hi Mark,

Even though your photo album is listed as private I managed to sign into my Picasa account and leave you some comments on some of the photos you have supplied. Hope fully this will give you some help with your claims there…….

I haven’t had the time to read through all of the posters and their comments, but for me this instrument was over-priced. Of course the obvious is that a second opinion would have been helpful to you. I understand the dilemma that you faced there……..someone with a reputation and you feel obligated to trust them. But I have to come back to the old adage of “caveat emptor” (buyer beware)…..when you purchase anything of substantial value or something that you are unfamiliar with. In the purchase of ANY mechanical device, boat, car, piano, they all need to be checked by someone of your choice.

Yes, you will most likely get the technician to argue that the cracked sounding board and bass bridgework are normal deterioration, but this type of aging causes the instrument to be of limited value if it has any value at all. Here in Vancouver,Canada a piano of this type would not have sold for even half of what you have paid.

I would wait to see what happens in 8 weeks and how the written guarantee is worded. This will assist you in your plan of response.

The only other thing I can think of is to see if you can return the instrument for a refund, or exchange for something more recent (newer) or in better condition.

Hi there,

To RPD:
I have no doubt that reputable techs exist. My trouble seems to be to recognise one of them. [EDIT: more correctly, my trouble seems to be to recognise the NOT so reputable ones...]

To Randy:
If you say that having an tech inspect your instruments actually works in your favour, does this mean that you sell an instrument for more than originally advertised? (This would question whether the tech was working in the best (financial) interest of the buyer?)

To Dan:

MANY thanks for taking the trouble to comment on some pictures. I'll go into the album immediately to have a look at your inputs.

If I can walk away from this episode without TOO much damage, I'll probably be looking for a newer instrument.

Although it's really a pity about this Seiler, as we were particularly drawn by its sound and its external appearance!

Kind regards to all, and enjoy your weekend!

Mark

Dear Dan,

Your comments to my pictures (some of them quite brutal, but that's the nature of the beast called "honesty") are of immense value, putting a perspective on what's severe and what's not so bad.

I would not have thought that the cracked apron is such a problem; neither would I have identified it as a possible cause for that dull bass note... but now that you've explained it, it makes sense.

Many thanks for the time and effort you took. If ever I should be in Vancouver, let me buy you a (few cases of) beer. Until that time, a sincere thank-you will have to suffice.

In addition, I'll try to "shop around" for a reliable, objective tech in the next week or two, and ask for an assessment, so that when my seller comes in about 6 weeks' time, I have a portfolio that's based not only on internet forums. [EDIT: nothing against forums, to the contrary! But the seller may argue the point that no-one has actually inspected the instrument "live".]

Regards,
Mark

On a lighter note. I remember one time many years ago, when I was still acquiring pianos and fixing them for resale when I still had the time which I no longer do. A lady came by interested in the piano but wanted her technician to look at it. Fine says I however, I do have 2 other people interested in it and first come first serve. I mean, with no money down, you never know for sure if they are actually going to return or not. She called me about 2 hours later... 2 hours to late actually, having contacted her technician 45 miles away from here who told her "if Jerry Groot fixed that piano BUY IT you have nothing to worry about!" I still can't help but get that tingling feeling that you get when someone says something that nice about you. Unfortunately for her, the 2nd person that looked at it bought it. I still tune that piano today and it's still in good condition and that was about 15 to 20 years ago or so.

Jerry...

To wit; she should have done her homework and asked about your reputation BEFORE wasting her (and your) time in hesitating...if she had been prepared and asked her tech prior, she'd have a nice piano today.

RPD

Thanks Rick. Even though that took place that long ago, it sure does make one realize how important a good reputation is doesn't it?

Hello Mark,

I have always thought that honesty is the best policy, and I have even lost customers over that fact. Because I am out of your area, it is relatively easy to be objective about what I viewed in the photos. They paint a pretty clear picture of what you have purchased.

The instrument is old; that has been taken into account for the aging sound board and other components. The biggest concern I had would be the broken, or breaking bass apron. By being cracked in the middle, like I stated, this begins to give the middle of the bass bridge a peak……..much like the roof of your home. Eventually the bass bridge will crack or break too. When this happens is anybody’s guess.

Sure this instrument can be used in this condition, BUT, from what you have stated here in this thread it seems that you were led to believe that this instrument was in good shape and tuning/ regular maintenance was the only requirement.

Well from what I can see, this is simply not the case.

I feel that this instrument should not have been sold for that price in that condition. In all honesty this should have been pointed out so than you could have made an informed decision.

Remember also that I am basing my values on the market I have experience with which is the market in Vancouver. This is a large city and the used equipment here does not retain its value like other parts of the country.

Not to worry about the beer…… thanks is good enough……………I’d be happy to read that you have managed an exchange…….( straight across, no funds exchanged except for moving and tuning maybe)……for a newer instrument or one in better condition.

Good luck,