Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 5 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 >
Topic Options
#1270719 - 09/18/09 06:30 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Larry Larson]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 940
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Wow, let me briefly say that I just read through the entire conversation with lots of interest. Great contributions, especially thanks to Monika K. and Sophial! IMO we should never dismiss a topic just because it's regularly recurring; there are always new aspects to discuss.

Originally Posted By: sophial
"To get to a basic level of competence on a simple task is probably within the capability of most people given training; to get to very high levels of competence on very complex tasks however is where individual differences are more likely to show up even with good training."


I think we all agree (?) that individual differences in proficiency are more pronounced in some tasks than in others among people who can be considered "well-trained". So these are called the "complex" tasks here. However, I'm just wondering (actually, I doubt) if it's possible to find another definition for "complex task" than the pragmatic one: "tasks where individual differences show up even with good training". If the latter is the only definition, than the quote above is a bit circular and we are back at simply describing what we observe.

P.S. ProdigalPianist, good point, I agree. For tasks in which proficiency, especially from a given level on, is not easily quantifiable (this includes piano playing of course), people who are not very familiar with this task may tend to underestimate the actual differences in proficiency levels between people.


Edited by pianovirus (09/18/09 06:39 PM)
_________________________
youtube.com/user/pianovirus

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1270769 - 09/18/09 08:23 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: pianovirus]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
Monica
I was not referring to that particular study, but as I am sure you now there are many studies that address the genetics of athletic physiology. I will preface this by saying that this is not my field of expertise but I have read a fair amount of the literature on it. I can recommend a recent review by Ostrander EA et al.("Genetics of Athletic Performance") that summarizes the current genetic data.

There is fairly solid data that suggests the existence of predisposing genes towards musical ability as well, and I am not referring just to absolute pitch recognition. A lot of it comes from Scandinavian studies of multigenerational families (The Scandinavians have good tissue banking and family records, especially in Finland and Iceland). Now obviously one can find a lot to criticize. For instance, the definition of musical aptitude and our ability to test it, somewhat akin to PV's question above re: task complexity. The latest Finnish study (Pulli K, from last year) uses the Karma Music Test and a pitch and time discrimination test to determine "musicality" (and not just family history ie the existence of musicians)and finds a genetic link using state of the art genomic analyses with a good sample size and solid parameters.
The discussion of higher cognition such as musical ability is fraught with pitfalls, angst-provoking hypotheses and misinterpretation, let alone when it is coupled with genetics. There is a tremendous antipathy towards genetics among lay people and even some scientists, which is by no means limited to music.
On a more interesting note, there was a recent report in Science daily about some findings that correlate music perception and creativity to intrinsic attachment behavior and social bonding (perhaps not surprisingly). This is part of a larger project looking at music and genetics. Link about the study below. The study itself is on a public access site.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090526093925.htm

Top
#1270805 - 09/18/09 10:56 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Andromaque]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17698
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
There is a tremendous antipathy towards genetics among lay people and even some scientists, which is by no means limited to music.


You're not kidding. Teaching in the Bible Belt, I often encounter considerable resistance when I try to teach evolutionary psychology principles. eek

Thanks for the website about the link between music and social bonds. It will come in handy as I'm prepping NEXT week's topic in my class, which is the evolutionary basis of music. thumb
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
#1270868 - 09/19/09 02:13 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Monica K.]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3403
Loc: US
Hi Monica,
Yes, please feel free to quote what I wrote for your class if you'd like-- I'd be honored! blush

pianovirus,
I think task complexity can be defined in ways other than as just tasks on which individual differences are seen. Tasks that require a variety of different types of skills or combining different skills to achieve a result, for example, might be considered as more complex than those that involve fewer or less diverse skill sets. Piano I think can be classified as quite complex, requiring many different skills that are both physical and cognitive, and involve speed of processing, coordination, ability to have extremely good control of gross and fine motor activities, visual-motor and kinesthetic abilities, listening skills, and skills involved in musical interpretation, higher level conceptualization, and emotional communication , just to name a few.

Also, like Jason, I'd like to put in a word for the cocktail lounge pianists of the world-- It's harder than it looks and there are some real pros out there! cool


Sophia




Edited by sophial (09/19/09 02:19 AM)

Top
#1270869 - 09/19/09 02:16 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Monica K.]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Teaching in the Bible Belt, I often encounter considerable resistance when I try to teach evolutionary psychology principles. eek

Don't envy you. Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

I'm surprised on one else has commented re your reference to 'cocktail pianists'. I thought you made a good point, and I for one, have realized that we agree on much more than I thought previously. This is cool...
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1270875 - 09/19/09 02:48 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: argerichfan]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]


Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#1270878 - 09/19/09 02:51 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Horowitzian]
Toman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 164
If you don't like how Bible Belters don't take kindly to EvoPsych, you'd be dismayed by the typical doctrinaire liberals' reaction.

Or amused.

Top
#1270888 - 09/19/09 04:11 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: sophial]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 940
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Originally Posted By: sophial
pianovirus,
I think task complexity can be defined in ways other than as just tasks on which individual differences are seen. Tasks that require a variety of different types of skills or combining different skills to achieve a result, for example, might be considered as more complex than those that involve fewer or less diverse skill sets. Piano I think can be classified as quite complex, requiring many different skills that are both physical and cognitive, and involve speed of processing, coordination, ability to have extremely good control of gross and fine motor activities, visual-motor and kinesthetic abilities, listening skills, and skills involved in musical interpretation, higher level conceptualization, and emotional communication , just to name a few.


Thanks, Sophia. But then how about running as fast as possible for 100 meters, or proving mathematical theorems? Neither of these are (I think) complex tasks in the sense you described piano playing (i.e. involving many different types of skills), but there is clearly a difference in proficiency even among highly trained people.
_________________________
youtube.com/user/pianovirus

Top
#1270902 - 09/19/09 07:00 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: pianovirus]
Mary-Rose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1428
Loc: Essex, England
Originally Posted By: Monica K.

My own take on the O.P.'s question: You can start as an adult and, with sufficient focused practice and dedication, you can become an expert pianist and successful professional musician. "Innate talent" (if it even exists) plays only a negligible role (if it plays a role at all).

I disagree with both points. There aren’t enough professional musical jobs to go round even for really good players. And ‘sufficient focused practice’ is just one ingredient necessary to become an ‘expert pianist’. As for talent playing a negligible role – have you never met people who have no sense of rhythm, or who are so tone deaf they can’t tell which note of a pair is higher and which lower? I have. These people would be unlikely to be able to play acceptably at even an amateur level, however carefully and frequently they practised. They would however be good at other things and should concentrate on those instead. Farming or cartwheeling or cooking maybe.
Originally Posted By: Monica K.


What I would like to see is some way of tapping into musical talent that does not involve actual musical mastery. If we devised a test, for example, that measured how quickly and smoothly a violinist could move his or her bow across a predetermined sequence of strings, it would probably predict skill as a violinist…

This seems to suggest you see musical performance as physical ability/control. Most of the skill of a violinist is not speed/smoothness but their artistic interpretation of the notes they are playing – the tone they manage to elicit from their instrument, the phrasing and colouration. Likewise, maybe a piano player could practise enough to play a lot of notes accurately and quickly, but would they be able to produce a truly musical effect?
When I was seven the local music academy (which, this being England, was paid for by the government) sent round an examiner to our school who put the class through various little musical tests. At that point I think I am right in saying that none of us played an instrument and I had certainly never had a music lesson in my life. I can remember to this day, some 48 years later, what some of the tests consisted of. ‘I will play a little tune and you must clap it out afterwards.’ ‘How many notes am I playing together at the one time?’ ‘sing this phrase after I’ve played it on the piano’. I was puzzled because it all seemed so simple I thought there must be a catch. However some kids were unable to do any of the tasks asked of them. I got a scholarship based on these tests, to get free piano lessons up to Grade 8. This experience leads me to believe that there is such a thing as innate talent. Innate lack of talent, too - which I have in many areas!
Am I now a great musician? Far from it. But I did enjoy those lessons, and subsequent music studies.
My cousin, Roy, had far more innate talent than I had. He was able to listen to a piece that I played just once or twice and copy it almost note-perfect purely by ear. I’m not talking about high-level pieces – just about grade 4 or 5. He couldn’t even read music until he was an adult. But he had a marvellous ear and a tremendous musical memory (and I am sure still does). He is another reason that I cannot doubt that innate talent exists.
_________________________
Best wishes from MR
http://www.extraloudpurrs.blogspot.com

Top
#1270932 - 09/19/09 08:46 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Mary-Rose]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
Toman
i am sorry but I could not ignore your use of the term EvoPsych. I will share my opinion thus.
Evolution is a real science, which means it is a body of facts and proven hypotheses as well as some speculative interpretation based on the current state of the science. The science itself should not be colored by politics or religion. The history of humanity is replete with disatrous turns due to this incompatible mix. What you and I are entitled to is our view of the meaning of all this, our faith, how we put all these facts together and how we interpret their relation to our view of the world. Attacking the science itself, diminishing it, ignoring it, not teaching its proven findings or belittling the scientists are not likely to change scientific conclusions. The events in Galileo's life remain an excellent example (The Church acknowledged his scientific findings, eventually, and presented an apology a few hundred years later!). Of course, the opposite is also true: upholding simple scientific facts as arguments against faith is equally ignorant.
A better approach is to stick to interpretation. Many hard core scientists believe in God's existence for example and many theologians have written extensively about the compatibility of faith and science, without having to resort to belittling evolutionary science. (including Catholics, Presbyterians, Jewish and others .. Don't know where Anglicans stand on this).
This is just to say that the term EvoPsych which tries to further belittle evolution by coupling it with what is perceived to be another "unscience", ie psychiatry, is insulting, utterly uninformed and does not illuminate the subject. It rather dumps it squarely in the bin of vacuous political debate.

Top
#1270954 - 09/19/09 09:46 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Andromaque]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
I have mixed feelings about this notion of innate talent. When I doubt that there is such a thing, I only have to look at my two children, who couldn't be more different musically, to wonder. There are only a couple of years apart in age. Both play a string instrument. Both practice about the same amount and with the same diligence. Both have good teachers. And yet, one is just miles ahead, in all aspects of music, than the other.

What I don't know, and what I suspect nobody knows, is whether this innate talent is a developmental thing, which will eventually equalize, or weether one child will always be miles ahead. The reason I suspect that nobody knows is that, in practice, a child who appears to show early aptitute will get encouragement, and will find practice more rewarding. A child who does not will most likely drop music and move onto something else.

Whether any two adults, having absolutely no prior exposure to music training, will show different levels of aptitude is also difficult to determine. It's difficult because, in reality, very few adults (at least in the UK) have absolutely no musical training as children. Most UK schools teach some music, even if it's only desultory recorder playing and a bit of singing.

So the difference in perceived talent for music in adults _could_ (I'm not saying `must') be the result of different childhood experiences, perhaps not even well remembered.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't such a thing as innate music talent in adults, but I don't think it's easy to quantify.

As others have remarked, I can't help thinking that the overwhelming factor that will determine what is achievable by an adult learner is the amount of time available to practice, which depends on how one juggles one's other commitmments.

Top
#1270962 - 09/19/09 10:03 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: kevinb]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Originally Posted By: kevinb
I have mixed feelings about this notion of innate talent. When I doubt that there is such a thing, I only have to look at my two children, who couldn't be more different musically, to wonder. There are only a couple of years apart in age. Both play a string instrument. Both practice about the same amount and with the same diligence. Both have good teachers. And yet, one is just miles ahead, in all aspects of music, than the other.






As others have remarked, I can't help thinking that the overwhelming factor that will determine what is achievable by an adult learner is the amount of time available to practice, which depends on how one juggles one's other commitmments.






I simply can't understand this reluctance to accept what should be as plain as the nose on your face, or in this case, your children's faces. Is there some sort of fear of genetic predetermination at work here, some overly nice liberal tendency to want not to hurt anyone's feelings?

If you can't see that human beings are each born with a unique, genetically based set of talents and traits, then look to the animal world, which is just another way of looking at ourselves. I've 3 dogs at the moment, all the same breed, all with essentially the same training and background, and yet they couldn't be more different.


Edited by cardguy (09/19/09 10:05 AM)

Top
#1270965 - 09/19/09 10:13 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Horowitzian]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]

Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink

H., you and I agree most of the time, too, yet in this case, if there was any insult there I think it was toward ignorance and ignorant people rather than toward the U.S. generally. There are always beacons of knowledge as well as bastions of backwardness in most any community, but it's inescapable the prevalence of either one does not have equal geographic distribution.

I heard on the news just yesterday that 25% of high school students in a certain state that I won't name did not know who the first American president was. For years I've heard the canard about the number of kids who thought that Chernobyl is Cher's full name, and I'm coming to suspect that it has more than anectodal basis. smile

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1270970 - 09/19/09 10:28 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: pianovirus]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3403
Loc: US
pianovirus,

In my earlier post I wrote, "My contention is that the more multifaceted the abilities required, and the more complex and demanding the task (like playing piano at a professional level), the more individual differences are likely to emerge and persist despite training. " Tasks can be more challenging by being more complex and/or by demanding a higher level of performance even if the task perhaps does not require as many different abilities. So if we set the bar high enough for performance, that may also help individual differences to emerge even on a fairly unidimensional task (although even "simple" tasks are more complex than they might appear). Your example of running 100 meters is a good one. Probably most able- bodied people can run 100 meters. Running 100 meters in the time that Usain Bolt does is a whole other level of difficulty and performance-- and individual differences may indeed show up when the criterion of performance is to match that or get as close to it as possible.


Sophia

Top
#1270986 - 09/19/09 11:01 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: sotto voce]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]

Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink

H., you and I agree most of the time, too, yet in this case, if there was any insult there I think it was toward ignorance and ignorant people rather than toward the U.S. generally. There are always beacons of knowledge as well as bastions of backwardness in most any community, but it's inescapable the prevalence of either one does not have equal geographic distribution.

I heard on the news just yesterday that 25% of high school students in a certain state that I won't name did not know who the first American president was. For years I've heard the canard about the number of kids who thought that Chernobyl is Cher's full name, and I'm coming to suspect that it has more than anectodal basis. smile

Steven


Steven,

I certainly hope that you are correct and that Jason meant it that way, but I really wasn't sure at the time. And I must agree that those are sobering statistics. I saw it too. frown As to Chernobyl, you gotta be kidding. shocked I'm guessing you aren't. smile
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#1270989 - 09/19/09 11:10 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Horowitzian]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
I'd say it's well nigh impossible to underestimate the ignorance in our culture. It's really quite depressing.

Top
#1271002 - 09/19/09 11:30 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Andromaque]
Toman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 164
Andromaque,

EvoPsych is not a derogatory term, refers to evolutionary psychOLOGY, not psychIATRY, and is a real - albeit social - science. Furthermore, I assure you that I am a fan, not a detractor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology


Edited by Toman (09/19/09 11:48 AM)

Top
#1271008 - 09/19/09 11:44 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: cardguy]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: cardguy


If you can't see that human beings are each born with a unique, genetically based set of talents and traits, then look to the animal world, which is just another way of looking at ourselves. I've 3 dogs at the moment, all the same breed, all with essentially the same training and background, and yet they couldn't be more different.



Originally Posted By: cardguy


I'd say it's well nigh impossible to underestimate the ignorance in our culture. It's really quite depressing.



Surely highly scientific comments.

Top
#1271015 - 09/19/09 11:58 AM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: landorrano]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I wonder if there's any science behind snarkiness.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1271033 - 09/19/09 12:42 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: sotto voce]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Thanks Steven, better riposte than I had in mind. I wonder if the next time lando gives an off the cuff, conversational generalization along the lines of "it's impossible to underestimate the ignorance in our culture,"-he'll stop short and think "Oh no, not scientific enough. I'd better not."

Top
#1271038 - 09/19/09 12:51 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: cardguy]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
Snarky, indeed!

Originally Posted By: cardguy


... look to the animal world, which is just another way of looking at ourselves.



Just have a look at sotto voce's photo.

Top
#1271050 - 09/19/09 01:11 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Andromaque]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Many hard core scientists believe in God's existence for example and many theologians have written extensively about the compatibility of faith and science, without having to resort to belittling evolutionary science. (including Catholics, Presbyterians, Jewish and others .. Don't know where Anglicans stand on this).

The Anglicans (essentially equivalent to US Episcopals with some important exceptions) accept compatibility of faith and science, and fully respect evolutionary science. Aside from internal squabbles over ordaining women and gay bishops (which few outside of the Church could care less about), most of the differences within the Anglican Church relate to (and I'm oversimplifying) how close or far from Rome any given church is. Canterbury has no set guide lines, and some Anglican churches are very 'low', i.e grape juice, whilst others -in Brighton or Cornwall for example- are almost indistinguishable from an RC church.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1271055 - 09/19/09 01:21 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Horowitzian]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5913
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]


Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink

You did?
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#1271056 - 09/19/09 01:23 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Horowitzian]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]

Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink

H., you and I agree most of the time, too, yet in this case, if there was any insult there I think it was toward ignorance and ignorant people rather than toward the U.S. generally. There are always beacons of knowledge as well as bastions of backwardness in most any community, but it's inescapable the prevalence of either one does not have equal geographic distribution.

I heard on the news just yesterday that 25% of high school students in a certain state that I won't name did not know who the first American president was. For years I've heard the canard about the number of kids who thought that Chernobyl is Cher's full name, and I'm coming to suspect that it has more than anectodal basis. smile

Steven


Steven,

I certainly hope that you are correct and that Jason meant it that way, but I really wasn't sure at the time. And I must agree that those are sobering statistics. I saw it too. frown As to Chernobyl, you gotta be kidding. shocked I'm guessing you aren't. smile


H, like Steven said, I wasn't insulting the US, just questioning the ignorance of a certain set of people, generally found in the Bible Belt. Faith and Science should coexist, not be mutually exclusive. I totally fail to understand those who, against overwhelming scientific evidence, still think the Earth was created only 10,000 years ago, etc, etc. It's all rather beyond me, and OT anyway!
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1271058 - 09/19/09 01:24 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]


Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink

You did?

Thanks, Damon.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1271117 - 09/19/09 03:41 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: argerichfan]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
[...] Evolutionary principles in such an ignorant part of the world must be a hard sell indeed.

[...]

Now Jason, I admire your posts in general, but that's unnecessarily insulting. I expect better of an intelligent chap like you. wink

H., you and I agree most of the time, too, yet in this case, if there was any insult there I think it was toward ignorance and ignorant people rather than toward the U.S. generally. There are always beacons of knowledge as well as bastions of backwardness in most any community, but it's inescapable the prevalence of either one does not have equal geographic distribution.

I heard on the news just yesterday that 25% of high school students in a certain state that I won't name did not know who the first American president was. For years I've heard the canard about the number of kids who thought that Chernobyl is Cher's full name, and I'm coming to suspect that it has more than anectodal basis. smile

Steven


Steven,

I certainly hope that you are correct and that Jason meant it that way, but I really wasn't sure at the time. And I must agree that those are sobering statistics. I saw it too. frown As to Chernobyl, you gotta be kidding. shocked I'm guessing you aren't. smile


H, like Steven said, I wasn't insulting the US, just questioning the ignorance of a certain set of people, generally found in the Bible Belt. Faith and Science should coexist, not be mutually exclusive. I totally fail to understand those who, against overwhelming scientific evidence, still think the Earth was created only 10,000 years ago, etc, etc. It's all rather beyond me, and OT anyway!


It's all good then. smile
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#1271275 - 09/19/09 08:10 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Horowitzian]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian


It's all good then. smile

Many thanks my good mate, Horowitzian, though Damon seems to have a problem with me. I suspect it is more political -ultra liberal I am grin - than musical.

I always enjoy Damon's posts. Whatever his experience and age, I don't feel that my musical knowledge is in any way inferior.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1271282 - 09/19/09 08:28 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: argerichfan]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
smile

grin
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#1271303 - 09/19/09 09:07 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5913
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian


It's all good then. smile

Many thanks my good mate, Horowitzian, though Damon seems to have a problem with me. I suspect it is more political -ultra liberal I am grin - than musical.

I always enjoy Damon's posts. Whatever his experience and age, I don't feel that my musical knowledge is in any way inferior.


Thanks, I enjoy yours too, when they are musical. I live in the bible belt and don't know anyone who thinks the world is only 10,000 years old, or flat. Darwin is another matter. As you guessed, my politics are 135 degrees from yours.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#1271309 - 09/19/09 09:18 PM Re: Realistic Goals as adults/late starter [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon


Thanks, I enjoy yours too, when they are musical. I live in the bible belt and don't know anyone who thinks the world is only 10,000 years old, or flat. Darwin is another matter. As you guessed, my politics are 135 degrees from yours.

Okay Damon, no problem. Thanks for your post, and cheers...

So musically we will still interact... and you might PM me sometime. Would be interested to know more about your background.
_________________________
Jason

Top
Page 5 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
107 registered (Atrys, ADWyatt, AZ_Astro, Almaviva, 29 invisible), 1329 Guests and 48 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74198 Members
42 Forums
153491 Topics
2249184 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bechstein 7
by PhilipInChina
2 minutes 26 seconds ago
Premier Piano of New York
by FenderJazzMan
Yesterday at 11:58 PM
Top selling self-taught pianists?
by Sand Tiger
Yesterday at 11:06 PM
Just got my MP11!
by Dan Clark
Yesterday at 10:18 PM
Cracks in my soundboard??
by Markarian
Yesterday at 09:35 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission