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#1271661 - 09/20/09 04:20 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"Last year there was a *blind-fold* test of grand pianos up to 30.000.- €, conducted by the French music journal Diapason."

Another problem with this is that any playable Steinway is going to be (at least) somewhat north of €30,000. So, the evaluator shouldn't have even thought it could be a candidate...


How do you know that the 2 pianists asked to do the blind evaluation were told any of the parameters including the price range of the instruments?

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#1271667 - 09/20/09 04:30 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: ftp]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: fathertopianist
Can anyone describe what the test was or is that irrelevant to the thread?


As described, it was conducted by a French magazine "Diapason" which is well-known in Europe.

I cannot post the entire results here, but here are the instruments tested and the Overall Scores:

Schimmel K169T 6 Stars
Wendl & Lung 178 6 Stars
Shigeru Kawai SK2 5 Stars
August Forster 170 4 Stars
Petrof III 3 Stars

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#1271675 - 09/20/09 04:51 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: ftp]
Akshay Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 17
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: fathertopianist
Can anyone describe what the test was or is that irrelevant to the thread?


I hesitate, but given the not-too-serious nature of the thread, why not. grin French classical music/piano mags sometimes invite concert pianists to carry out blind auditions of piano's in a given price range. It's hardly scientific, but good fun to read their opinions. Like reading... whisky tasting notes. Anyhow, to the surprise of many, two pianists invited by Diapason really liked a Wendl&Lung 178. They also loved a Schimmel 168. You can read the whole test here:

http://www.pianogroningen.nl/nieuws/42975-wendl-lung-winnaar-franse-test

Of course it's very subjective. Judging the W&L to have a superb finish is a sign of rose-tinted glasses, perhaps due to enjoying the piano. The somewhat stiff action of their Shigeru probably felt a bit unresponsive to *them* as they prefer a lighter action. It would not be unresponsive in an objective sense. In the end, the whisky tasters ended up liking an el cheapo brew, as it was powerful...and satisfying.

Note, though, that Schimmel and Steingraeber make a point on their websites that they do very well, consistently, in these French blind auditions. So, fair play to Wendl this time. crazy

To get back on topic, I would take the Steinway. If it's from Hamburg, of course. smokin

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#1271683 - 09/20/09 05:07 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Akshay]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
"How do you know that the 2 pianists asked to do the blind evaluation were told any of the parameters including the price range of the instruments?"

It's a fair point, Furtwangler--- and I don't know. I looked at this magazine article some time back; my French is poor and my Dutch is worse, so I gathered what I could. So maybe it would be more fair to say that if they did know the price ceiling, then they should have known better than to look for a Steinway... and I'm not surprised they liked the W&L.
_________________________
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#1271703 - 09/20/09 05:38 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Jeff Clef]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Just to restore some perspective, the test price limits were pianos under 30,000 €. Pianos ranged in centimeters from Schimmel (169), Forster (170), Shigeru and Wendl (178) to Petrof (193).

In terms of price, the Shigeru, the Schimmel, and the Forster were all over 27500 €. The Forster tipped the scales at 29,900, just under the € limit. The Petrof was priced at 17,500 € and the Wendl at 10,500 €

The subject piano of this thread, the Wendl 218, was not in the mix at all.

In such a test with a panel of only two players and only five pianos, anything can happen. For a piano like the Wendl, there is literally nothing to lose in such a faceoff. If it came out last, one could say that it cost less than half of its high-end competitors. For a piano like the Forster, which is not everyone's cup of tea, it's a no-win situation. Even if it had fared well, which it did not, one could say that it should have done well since it cost the most.

Mr. Francois Dumont said that he was persuaded he was playing a Steinway due to the tonal refinement of the Wendl. He must have felt it brought out the best in his playing. Perhaps he has since bought a Wendl and now concertizes with a blindfold.
_________________________
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#1271719 - 09/20/09 06:12 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: turandot]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13965
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
People should not forget that if you put a very special top- gun technician to any piano - you can easily scew the test.

In fairness to the competition or any other maker, I would not rely on any of those tests or "shows".

On the other hand, there definitely is a group of new challengers out there - we see it in terms of these pianos being compared increasingly to a whole group of "others" out there.

The smarter [new] makers know that they have to go well above the "call of duty" to create some noise and get attention in the market.

Interstingly enough, nobody is comparing these particular pianos to the Sojins or Kimballs of yesterday.

But to an embarrassingly highly placed group of "others"....

Norbert



Edited by Norbert (09/20/09 07:16 PM)
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#1271798 - 09/20/09 09:45 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Norbert]
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
There is a lot to be said for the bias one has to the name on the front of a fallboard and its influence on the perception of the piano. Years ago I was with a group of piano pros and the subject came up about how one person could feel a piano and "know" exactly what it is. Others in the group said they could do this as well. A blind folded challenge was set up to choose a from a Steinway, Yamaha, Young Chang product (private label) and Schimmel and the results were funny. Not one person could correctly name each piano and some even thought the lower priced pianos were the more expensive pianos and visa versa.

As far as the French test goes, a great deal has to do with the level of prep of each piano, including the amount of time spent on voicing and regulation. I don't know if the spoke about that. Then the test does not get into the nitty gritty of what makes one piano better than another from the stand point of materials and craftsmanship.

The W&L 218 is nice, but it is not a Steinway "B". Personally I feel the Brodmann 212 is conceived as more of a performance piano and is much closer to a "B", but still not a "B".
_________________________
Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Kurzweil, Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai

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#1271812 - 09/20/09 10:19 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Glenn Treibitz]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
"In such a test with a panel of only two players and only five pianos, anything can happen."

Anything?

Like, perhaps, a Suzuki being preferred over a Steinway, a Fazioli or a Steingraeber for instance?

No? Not that?

How about this then - a piano that is made in China comparing favorably with instruments in a similar size range which were made in Europe and Japan? And which cost - in some cases - almost literally 3 times as much?

Even that could happen?

Who would have ever thought?? What can this Piano World - or this world of pianos - be coming to?

If only someone - anyone - had told me this might be a possibility some day.

Oh, well..........

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#1271822 - 09/20/09 10:54 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: turandot]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Quote:
The subject piano of this thread, the Wendl 218, was not in the mix at all.


Yes indeed and is is dad that this whole discussion is now down to the jugding of a piano [or brand] solely based on a medal rewarded by a French music magazine.

It must be nice for any piano manufacturer to come out first and not last. But this is what it is: a personal opinion of just a few French pianists which were running some kind of so-called blindfold test of which the excact circumstances are very vague - a snapshop, nothing more, nothing less.

If these kind of tests were conclusive Schimmel must be by now far the best piano in the world.

It already got 6 gold medals by 'Le Diaposon', 8 Choc Awards by 'Le Monde de la Musique' and another 5 awards by 'Pianiste', a third french magazine.

Schimmel awards by the French

schwammerl.


Edited by schwammerl (09/20/09 10:55 PM)

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#1271828 - 09/20/09 11:12 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: schwammerl]
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1904
Loc: El Cajon, CA
<sarcasm>Yes, the Wendel & Lung 218 is better than the Steinway B, in the same way that a Williams Overture digital piano can match an expensive concert grand. laugh (you know who I'm talking about wink )</sarcasm>
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#1271835 - 09/20/09 11:28 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Furtwangler]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
"In such a test with a panel of only two players and only five pianos, anything can happen."
Anything? Like, perhaps, a Suzuki being preferred over a Steinway, a Fazioli or a Steingraeber for instance?


Literally anything, provided the pianos are new, free of defects, of similar size, and prepped to the gills. And I wouldn't dismiss the Suzuki so quickly either although you have raised the level of competition considerably with your new choices.

The Suzuki that fits into this class is the DongBei built 185. Now, Suzukis sold in the US are sold in the crate with no prep, and one supposes that the contract bid price precludes much post-production attention at the factory. But Suzukis are sold on the open market in Canada with dealers doing some prep. There are musician owners. Give me a Suzuki 185 with the stock DongBei rim, plate, and internals set up with the stock Abel hammers. Give me a $1500 of top-notch tech time for regulation and concert prep and I think I wil have a competitive dog in the race (for the length of the race).

Remember, the piano only has to keep its edge for a short period of time. Not only does it not need the build quality to last 50 years or the tuning stability to last a month, it only has to make it through a couple of hours. Then it can exhale. grin

Another thing. Playing blindfolded is disconcerting. I know. I just played with a bandana covering my eyes for about 10 minutes. I thought it would allow me to focus on the touch and tone with more concentration. Wrong! I couldn't focus on anything other than staying in the exact position on the bench and feeling my way when I had to deal with intervals of more than an octave. Now I'm no concert artist, but I have to believe the blindfold in itself interferes with perception and therefore evaluation, even if it removes brand bias.


How about this then - a piano that is made in China comparing favorably with instruments in a similar size range which were made in Europe and Japan? And which cost - in some cases - almost literally 3 times as much? Even that could happen? Who would have ever thought?? What can this Piano World - or this world of pianos - be coming to? If only someone - anyone - had told me this might be a possibility some day.


I figured someone did tell you. I thought that was why you leaped into the piano biz with Brodmann and Wendl as your calling cards. grin
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1271838 - 09/20/09 11:33 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: turandot]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: turandot
[b][i]

Remember, the piano only has to keep its edge for a short period of time. Not only does it not need the build quality to last 50 years or the tuning stability to last a month, it only has to make it through a couple of hours. Then it can exhale. grin


thumb
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of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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#1271839 - 09/20/09 11:35 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: turandot]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
No - nobody told me.

I figured it out all by my little old self. Me, my fingers, my ears, and most importantly....my open mind.

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#1271844 - 09/20/09 11:41 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Furtwangler]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
"Another thing. Playing blindfolded is disconcerting."

Who said they were blindfolded?

It was a "blind test". That could mean a lot of things.

"Give me a $1500 of top-notch tech time for regulation and concert prep and I think I wil have a competitive dog in the race (for the length of the race)."

How were the pianos prepped for the "blind test"? Or were they in fact prepped at all? Were the manufacturers even aware that the test was being conducted? Were they allowed to be present?

If the Wendl & Lung had come in last would you have been surprised? I think not.

It is what it is - 2 people played some pianos and gave their opinions of them. End of story. Take it for what it is worth.

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#1271849 - 09/20/09 11:55 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Furtwangler]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
"Another thing. Playing blindfolded is disconcerting."

Who said they were blindfolded?

It was a "blind test". That could mean a lot of things.

"Give me a $1500 of top-notch tech time for regulation and concert prep and I think I wil have a competitive dog in the race (for the length of the race)."

How were the pianos prepped for the "blind test"? Or were they in fact prepped at all? Were the manufacturers even aware that the test was being conducted? Were they allowed to be present?

If the Wendl & Lung had come in last would you have been surprised? I think not.

It is what it is - 2 people played some pianos and gave their opinions of them. End of story. Take it for what it is worth.




Oops, got a Wendl dealer upset. Must make a note not to do that. grin

Look Furt. I'm on your side about the Hailun pianos. I was posting favorable comments about Hailun-built pianos here years ago. I follow Mr. Chen's formidable piano-making efforts and peculiar marketing practices with great interest. I would be no more surprised if Wendl finished first than I would be if it finished last. It's a crap shoot. I am neither trying to de-value the test result nor put a high amount of value on it. It's an interesting anecdote, nothing more.

However, this anecdote has been brought into the conversation here before, and latched onto by sellers of Hailun pianos just as it has here. If you're going to hitch a ride, don't complain about the bumps in the road.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1271863 - 09/21/09 12:19 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: turandot]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
Who's complaining? I'm just askin' a few questions is all.

Besides, I can only practice for an hour or so at a time, so I thought I might hitch a ride on the PW train for a spell!

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#1271875 - 09/21/09 12:51 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Furtwangler]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
There are lots of questions. That is true. Lots of page views too. Can you believe over 7400? I sense that the Steinway militia are approaching. Might be good to go back to your practice session.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1271878 - 09/21/09 01:00 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: turandot]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13965
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Some people here take joy when somebody's coming from behind getting onto map of things.

Others have fun calling this ridiculous considering it a vague effort by wonnabes at best.

The real smart ones look over their shoulder making sure they stay ahead of the curve.

Hope some shoulders here are not too high for that....

P.S. not only talking "Hailun"

Norbert cool


Edited by Norbert (09/21/09 01:03 AM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1271884 - 09/21/09 01:12 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Glenn Treibitz]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
Quote:
The W&L 218 is nice, but it is not a Steinway "B". Personally I feel the Brodmann 212 is conceived as more of a performance piano and is much closer to a "B", but still not a "B".


I am often surprised by the comments made on this forum. Especially since most are here for the experience of playing piano (and not waxing it daily).

So here's a philosophical question. Is it that the only reason folks are so emphatic in their opinions as to the goodness of one piano vs another because most will be lucky enough to own one good piano at a time and possibly in their lifetime (except apparently Terry8675309<sic>, sorry for the jab Terry... it's just jealousy)? This phenomenon seems to be limited to pianos due to both price and size -- and maybe also bowed instruments.

OTOH, professional guitarists, drummers, etc are content to find a voice in even the most humble of instruments. I often read stories of so and so professional musician picking up an old $50 Slingerland snare drum and finding it inspiring and his drum of choice although he/she owns a Noble & Cooley, etc etc

If we lived in a world where it was practical to own 5 or 10 pianos (like many guitarists have of guitars) would there be all these emphatic statements regarding which is best? Or rather, would there be a place for all instruments to live and be respected, whereby even within identical makes and models (and all price points) some instruments are soulless junk and some make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up at attention.

As usual on this forum something is garnering controversy. But really the issue is not so much the WL/Hailun but the statement that Swampwiz made (sorry to put you in the hotseat Swampwiz). Generally it is impossible to say, a WL 218 is a better piano than a Steinway B... but no more than saying a Steinway B is a better piano than a WL 218 (emphasis on the a's). A less controversial statement would have been... "I know of someone who has played a couple WL 218s and he prefers them over his own Steinway B and for that matter any Steinway B he has ever played". Is this statement egregious? Of course not, it may even be fact, and if this notional statement were said we could only take that person at their word and respect them for it.

Also, regarding Brodmann, Glenn I respect your opinion and mine is just opposite which I hope you also will respect. I played a 212 at Nick's Piano the same day I played my 218 and I can't say I was moved by that 7' Brodmann at all (nor it's smaller brethren). I won't say it wasn't a fine instrument, it just had this sort of parlor sound in the middle register (IIRC) that wasn't appealing to me.

IMO, much of the talk of "my piano is better than yours" is for elitists, dealers speaking in half-truths, and consumers that judge a piano by its casing. The happy truth (well not terribly happy for Steinway and apparently not for Schimmel) is that there are a lot of very good brands on the market right now. At the risk of contradicting myself, I also believe there will always be a place for elite brands that innovate and inspire.

Ryan


Edited by FogAudio (09/21/09 01:16 AM)

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#1271892 - 09/21/09 01:38 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: FogAudio]
birchy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Vancouver
Everybody knows if your piano is crappy that a tech can still make it outperform more expensive pianos. That doesn't mean that the good performance of your crappy piano is actually truly good. It just appears to be good, but it isn't because by definition it can't be - it's a crappy piano, and everybody knows that.

Likewise, even if your piano has great specs and appears to be well-built, but is not old, and is not from a brand that has been calling itself well-built for years, well of course that means it isn't well-built. Everybody knows that, too.

You have to be really careful nowadays, there are so many ways that they can trick you into being happy with your piano. The only way to be sure that you are really happy and your happiness is not just trickery is if you've spent over $50,000 (that's €30,000) and make sure the name on your piano is from a select list. Otherwise, all your joy is just an illusion.

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#1271896 - 09/21/09 01:50 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: birchy]
koiloco Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 622
Loc: California
So what's the final answer ?

I'd like to know because I am ready to upgrade again smile

I feel so ripped off with my last piano purchase right now; my piano was not even on the list of pianos in that test by those French geniuses wink

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#1271900 - 09/21/09 02:08 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: birchy]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
LOL! Birchy it's so late your sarcasm was lost on me at first. Anyway, well put!

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#1271909 - 09/21/09 03:11 AM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Larry Larson]
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
I had a Steinway 'B' for c30 years and when the soundboard got slightly cracked I bought a Bosendorfer 88" completely overhauled. A magnificent instrument.

I also have a Kawai keyboard for silent practice using headphones. These instruments give the player a over stated feel of ability in my opinion. Better to learn the hard way and starting from a child too. Just a few opinions not meant to read like a lecture.

Alan

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#1272078 - 09/21/09 12:42 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: birchy]
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
Hey Ryan,

I respect your opinion and what one likes or dislikes in a piano is subjective. As you know, even among the same piano brand and model pianos will vary from one to the other. I can not comment about the particular instruments you played. I have been to the Hailun factory and respect very much what they do, but unlike Hailun, Brodmann grand pianos are conceived as performance pianos and in the hands of knowledgeable tech can achieve results that are of a high level which comes back to what this thread was about. Can a piano in a moment in time with proper prep perform better than a more expensive or better built better specked out piano? The answer is yes, but will it last? How long with the prep hold? How soon will it need touch up or a complete prep? How will the piano age? How long will it last? I think it is safe to say that a Steinway "B" will hold up and be long lasting as has been proven historically. For anything else only time will tell but the materials and methodology used for many asian made pianos will limit their longevity as we have also seen historically.
_________________________
Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Kurzweil, Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai

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#1272079 - 09/21/09 12:44 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Glenn Treibitz]
koiloco Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 622
Loc: California
Glen,

Very well said.

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#1272093 - 09/21/09 01:25 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: koiloco]
John Pels Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 1253
Loc: Tomball, Texas
Amen Glenn, the best reasoned most even-handed comments thus far.

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#1272114 - 09/21/09 01:58 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Glenn Treibitz]
daifanshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: Glenn Treibitz
Hey Ryan,
[snip]
Can a piano in a moment in time with proper prep perform better than a more expensive or better built better specked out piano? The answer is yes, but will it last? How long with the prep hold? How soon will it need touch up or a complete prep? How will the piano age? How long will it last? I think it is safe to say that a Steinway "B" will hold up and be long lasting as has been proven historically. For anything else only time will tell but the materials and methodology used for many asian made pianos will limit their longevity as we have also seen historically.


I hate to say this, but this is a prime example of FUD. The poster "suggests" and "implies" a lot, but cannot give specifics with regard to the Steinway's "alternative". Generalizations about completely different pianos from a different era from the same country also don't cut it. The truth is nobody knows how even a modern day Steinway will hold up unless you have a time machine. (consider the past teflon fiasco).

I'm waiting for a time when we can judge pianos without looking at name on the fallboard or the country of origin. frown

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#1272122 - 09/21/09 02:11 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: daifanshi]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10340
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I disagree that this is FUD.

There are thousands of older steinways that have held up well over many years. Theer are next to none that have not held up well. Steinway's methodolgy of construction and materials have not be changed significantly, so it is safe to assume that they will continue to hold up.

There are no Chinese- Indonesian- or Korean-made instruments that have such a track record.
_________________________
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Since 1937.

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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1272124 - 09/21/09 02:15 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: Glenn Treibitz]
SeilerFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 746
Originally Posted By: Glenn Treibitz
The W&L 218 is nice, but it is not a Steinway "B". Personally I feel the Brodmann 212 is conceived as more of a performance piano and is much closer to a "B", but still not a "B".


So, and why is the Brodmann closer to a B than a Wendl & Lung? You happen to sell the former but not the latter. Wendl&Lung is more common in Europe, where dealers might say just the same about the 218 as you do about the Brodmann 212. I think that the word "conceived" that you use sums it up pretty much: it's all about name conception and about how certain companies try to obtain a certain reputation, that regardless of the actual product, is an important marketing tool.

I just clicked on Brodmann's website, driven by curiosity. Any piano company gives you their spiel about how great and traditional they are and about how "European" they are. Brodmann's website excels at that, pushing the European heritage to the utmost limit while not making mention of the fact that Brodmann isn't actually made in Europe. The adjectives that are used most frequently on their website are "European" and "German." Methinks they either have an inferiority complex or want to fool their customers.

The best thing is the picture that shows Mr. Hoeferl with Jose Carreras in front of a - get it - Boesendorfer grand, stressing the marketing idea that Brodmann and Boesendorfer are close allies or are comparable in quality/performance. I am sure that many Brodmann owners like their pianos, but to infer that a modern Brodmann piano is musically related to a Boesendorfer piano is just sheer marketing hocus-pocus.

Otherwise, I completely agree with your post. A Brodmann is not a Steinway B, neither is a Wendl & Lung.

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#1272131 - 09/21/09 02:21 PM Re: Is a Wendl & Lung 218 a better piano then a Steinway B? [Re: daifanshi]
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1904
Loc: El Cajon, CA
LOL w/FogAudio, birchy. smile
Here's my contribution among those lines... laugh

A grand piano will ALWAYS sound better than an upright, no matter what. It doesn't matter if the grand is the lowest quality grand ever made, and is only 4'5"/135cm long, and the upright is the best quality upright that was ever made, and is 60"/152cm (yes I'm referring to tall ones made around the turn of the 20th century, and for this discussion, am assuming it has been completely rebuilt, including installing a new soundboard and pinblock for example) tall, the grand will ALWAYS sound better than the upright.

Joking/sarcasm aside, I have played quite a variety of pianos in my lifetime, including a Kimball LaPetite (the grand I had in mind), for example. I actually would prefer a Baldwin Acrosonic SPINET over that piano! And, I used to have a tall 57" upright built in 1913. It had a very impressive bass tone due to its size and the new strings I installed, in spite of the badly worn hammers. I haven't played ANY new uprights that can match it in the bass, although the Baldwin 6000 comes close, and not even the Steingraeber 138 or Steinway sick K-52 can match it in the bass either. (Of course the worn hammers didn't help the overall tone.) I also have a 45" 1956 Baldwin Hamilton vertical which easily outperforms my mother's 4'11" 1998 Young Chang grand.

Quick note in reference to that "grand is always better" sarcasm above.... I wish manufacturers didn't make the smallest grands - the ones that are inferior in tone (of course, if designed properly, I would expect the action to be better, but I wasn't considering that - was ONLY considering tone, especially the bass) to the tall uprights, and bring back (modernizing the designs, of course) the 57-60"/145-152cm uprights that were made in the early 1900s. It'd be nice if that "grand will always sound better" statement could actually be true, based on the current lineup of pianos being manufactured, and I would hate to see the manufacturing of tall uprights cease again.
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