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#1272418 - 09/22/09 12:16 AM Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon?
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
I read in this forum about improved piano sampling used in the new Kawai CNx2 series and was curious when it would appear on the CA series ... guess what I found?

link to google translated announcement

Looks very promising but not sure when (or whether) they will be available outside of Japan ...

If you know something or would like to comment on these pianos please feel free to share ...

Tony


Edited by Tony Lau (09/22/09 12:18 AM)

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#1273884 - 09/24/09 01:59 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Tony Lau]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
Some new features when compared with current generation:
- a new wood RM3 Grand keyboard with ivory feel
- ultra-progressive harmonic imaging (UPHI) with 88 key stereo sampling (I believe there are 4 samples per key)
- USB interface

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#1273895 - 09/24/09 03:00 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Tony Lau]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Tony,

Quote:
(I believe there are 4 samples per key)

I am curious as to why you believe this to be the case - may I ask if you have read this information somewhere online?

Quote:
USB interface

Yes. This allows MP3/WAV files to be recorded and played back directly.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1274434 - 09/24/09 07:22 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Kawai James]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
Hi James,

I got the idea from this page:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca93/UPHI.html

The diagram showed samples (from weak to strong) D, C, B, A.

I don't know if this is technically correct or it is just an illustration of the idea.

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#1274532 - 09/24/09 09:57 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Tony Lau]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Tony,

You are correct, this illustration is intended to provide a general explanation of how the new 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' system is employed. However it over-simplifies the process somewhat, and is therefore not technically correct.

KAWAI will be using a similar illustration in it's non-Japanese CA93/CA63 marketing materials, however I shall ensure that readers are fully aware that the image is a simplified interpretation and not a technical representation of the process.

Many thanks for highlighting this important point.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1279744 - 10/03/09 02:16 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Kawai James]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
I recently noticed a subtle difference between CA93 and CA63 beside the number of tones (80 vs 60) and the speaker system (soundboard vs none). The CA93's keyboard provides a "let off feel" (hope I translate it right), which probably means the simulation of the escapement.

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#1279751 - 10/03/09 02:42 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Tony Lau]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Correct.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1279771 - 10/03/09 03:52 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Kawai James]
Oblacone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 344
Loc: Norway :D
Wow sounds cool! so what is so special about this new action compared to their old AWA PROII?
_________________________
Kawai KG-2C - my 5'10" of sheer happiness and joy!

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#1279779 - 10/03/09 04:31 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
You are correct, this illustration is intended to provide a general explanation of how the new 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' system is employed. However it over-simplifies the process somewhat, and is therefore not technically correct.

KAWAI will be using a similar illustration in it's non-Japanese CA93/CA63 marketing materials, however I shall ensure that readers are fully aware that the image is a simplified interpretation and not a technical representation of the process.

Many thanks for highlighting this important point.

Kind regards,
James
x

How about giving us a more technical and complete explanation here? This is a very important point, particularly given the crossroads the industry seems to be standing at in choosing between better sampling and physical reproduction technology on the one hand and modelling approaches on the other.

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#1279945 - 10/03/09 12:21 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide soon? [Re: Oblacone]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
Originally Posted By: Oblacone
Wow sounds cool! so what is so special about this new action compared to their old AWA PROII?


I checked the Kawai Japan website and this translated page may help explain some of the new features of the RM3 action:

CA 93 features

The ivory feel and escapement are new. There are some other subtle refinements such as key material, weighing and pivot positioning (fulcrum) for black and white keys to make it feel even more like a grand piano.

My piano playing skill will not do CA93 justice :), but I am eager to find out how much CA63 will sell for in Canada when it arrives. Hopefully not a gigantic jump from the current price of the CA51.

Tony

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#1279951 - 10/03/09 12:39 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Tony Lau]
Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia
I wonder when... These babies should be released before Christmas.

People can buy CA63 in Japan for $2,555 (to be shipped on the 13 of November) via Yahoo shopping.

I hope someone will enlighten us with first impressions of CA93 later this month. Anyone from Japan?


Edited by Nikola Tulimirovic (10/03/09 01:02 PM)
_________________________
Nikola Tulimirovic

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#1280004 - 10/03/09 02:05 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Nikola Tulimirovic]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
A local dealer (in the Greater Vancouver area in Canada) mentioned it may not arrive until Feb-March next year. The dealer does not know the price yet.

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#1280042 - 10/03/09 03:09 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Tony Lau]
Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia
If that’s the case, I guess they first want CA51, CA71 and CA91 nearly sold out. I hope this is not Kawai’s strategy. It would be very nice of KAWAI James to let us know when to expect CA63 and CA93 in North America and Europe.
_________________________
Nikola Tulimirovic

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#1280120 - 10/03/09 05:59 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
How about giving us a more technical and complete explanation here? This is a very important point, particularly given the crossroads the industry seems to be standing at in choosing between better sampling and physical reproduction technology on the one hand and modelling approaches on the other.


I believe the V-Piano is still the only purely modelled digital piano currently available. While I am sure we will see this technology filter down to other - presumably less expensive - products in the future, I believe sampled pianos (or a combination of sampling and modelling) will remain the preferred choice among digital piano manufacturers for the time being.

Without wishing to avoid your question (!), as KAWAI's Harmonic Imaging technology is a proprietary system, I'm afraid I cannot go into great detail explaining how the piano sound is produced . However, as you might expect, the most recent UPHI implementation allows for an even greater level of expressiveness than previously possible with the current PHI ('Progressive Harmonic Imaging') and original 'Harmonic Imaging' techniques.

When consumers play test the new CA93/CA63 (and other upcoming instruments that will use the UPHI sound source), I'm confident that they will be pleasantly surprised by the improvement in sound technology over the current CA91/CA71/CA51 models.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1280131 - 10/03/09 06:17 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Kawai James]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Nikola Tulimirovic, I am aware of your queries, and shall attempt to respond to them a little later.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1280394 - 10/04/09 07:34 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Kawai James]
Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia
That’s great. Thank you, James.

I am tired so my calculations may be wrong, even simple ones. It looks like the price of CA63 in Japan is between the price of CA51 and the price of CA71.
_________________________
Nikola Tulimirovic

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#1280406 - 10/04/09 08:17 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Nikola Tulimirovic]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Nikola,

I'm afraid I do not really have any fixed dates for the US/Europe launch - this is decided upon by KAWAI US and KAWAI Europe. My recommendation would be to contact each subsidiary company to ask when the new models will be available.

Quote:
It looks like the price of CA63 in Japan is between the price of CA51 and the price of CA71.


Yes, you are correct. However this pricing structure may/may not change when the instruments are introduced outside of Japan.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1281435 - 10/05/09 08:31 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Kawai James]
Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia
Neither North America nor Europe will see these digitals in 2009. I’ve got replies from both Kawai US and Kawai UK. I’m still waiting for Kawai Germany and a bit more precise estimate from Kawai UK, but I expect no dramatic changes and intend to make my final decision soon. That decision will almost certainly be buying CA51, as soon as possible.

I am a bit disappointed (really wanted to get my fingers on RM3), but also happy to put an end to all this madness. laugh

Now I really have to work and sleep for a while...

James, thanks for your help and effort. Good luck to all of you waiting! I’ll keep you posted in case I get any news on the topic.
_________________________
Nikola Tulimirovic

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#1281503 - 10/05/09 11:55 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Nikola Tulimirovic]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
I probably will "struggle" with my Casio CDP-100 a few more months before deciding what to get. In the mean time I plan to try out the CA51 to get a sense of what a it feels and sounds like.

Keep us posted.

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#1281553 - 10/06/09 03:28 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Tony Lau]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Tony, in terms of sound comparison, I would recommend play-testing the CN32/CN42 (or CN22/CN18 if the higher specification CN instruments are unavailable) over the CA51. The more recent KAWAI models utilise the 88-key sampling source which will also be used in the CA93/CA63, albeit by way of the more expressive Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging system.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1282814 - 10/08/09 04:01 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Kawai James]
Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia
In UK they expect to sell CA63 and CA93 in January, probably second half, but are not sure. Kawai Germany did’t respond.
_________________________
Nikola Tulimirovic

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#1282850 - 10/08/09 07:07 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Nikola Tulimirovic]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Nikola Tulimirovic
In UK they expect to sell CA63 and CA93 in January, probably second half, but are not sure. Kawai Germany did’t respond.


No surprises here. Kawai Germany is a disgrace to the company. These people should be fired and replaced with something that works.

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#1283037 - 10/08/09 12:41 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: theJourney]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 494
Only a little off topic. Will Kawai offer a system update to the ES6 which will allow the ES6 to incorporate 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' at any time in the future?

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#1283083 - 10/08/09 01:41 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: emenelton]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
The Kawai website says the ES6 incorporates the "Harmonic Imaging sound technology with 88-note piano sampling". This is relatively new, compared to the Harmony Imaging technology (not with 88-note piano sampling) used in the "older" CAx1 and CNx1 series.

There are now three levels of Harmonic Imaging:

- Harmonic Imaging (ES6, CN22)
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CN32, CN42)
- Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CA63, CA93)

with higher level technology incorporated into higher-end products.

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#1283094 - 10/08/09 02:01 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: emenelton]
Nikola Tulimirovic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Nikola Tulimirovic
In UK they expect to sell CA63 and CA93 in January, probably second half, but are not sure. Kawai Germany did’t respond.


No surprises here. Kawai Germany is a disgrace to the company. These people should be fired and replaced with something that works.


It’s not the first time, so I have to agree, at least partially. They need one KAWAI James, I say. smile

Originally Posted By: emenelton
Only a little off topic. Will Kawai offer a system update to the ES6 which will allow the ES6 to incorporate 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' at any time in the future?


I doubt it (rare business strategy, much closer to software developers), but it would be nice.
_________________________
Nikola Tulimirovic

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#1283121 - 10/08/09 02:39 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Tony Lau]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 494
Originally Posted By: Tony Lau


There are now three levels of Harmonic Imaging:

- Harmonic Imaging (ES6, CN22)
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CN32, CN42)
- Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CA63, CA93)

with higher level technology incorporated into higher-end products.


With the ES6 being Kawai's newest, highest end 'slab', perhaps there's a chance Kawai will provide an update.

I know - I know nobody 'can', but would somebody care to describe the differences?

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#1283300 - 10/08/09 08:34 PM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: emenelton]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: emenelton
Will Kawai offer a system update to the ES6 which will allow the ES6 to incorporate 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' at any time in the future?

In the past KAWAI have indeed made software updates available for download that improve instruments by adding new functionality - this was the case with the original MP8, which has received a number of software updates to implement many features introduced with the MP8II.

However, as UPHI utilises brand new hardware (currently only available in the CA93/CA63), I believe it's unlikely that such functionality will be possible via an ES6 software update.

Quote:
I know - I know nobody 'can', but would somebody care to describe the differences?


Again, I cannot go into technical details, however I can tell you that Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI) allows pianists to covey a greater level of expression in their playing, while Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI), enhances this expressiveness even further.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1284680 - 10/11/09 04:06 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Kawai James]
Tony Lau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 65
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Tony, in terms of sound comparison, I would recommend play-testing the CN32/CN42 (or CN22/CN18 if the higher specification CN instruments are unavailable) over the CA51. The more recent KAWAI models utilise the 88-key sampling source which will also be used in the CA93/CA63, albeit by way of the more expressive Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging system.

Cheers,
James
x


I finally went to the only Kawai dealer in the Vancouver area that carries the CA51. The CA51 action is heavier than the CN21 in a good way. This store does not have the CNx2 models and therefore I cannot compare the sound between the current and newer sound engines. I did not bring my own headphone, which was also an issue because the headphone at the store was pretty bad -- the sound was muffled and congested.

Playing through the built-in speakers, the bass from the CA51 sounded a bit strange. I do not know if it was to do with the speakers or the sound engine. I would like to hear how others feel about the sound of CA51, through the headphone and through the speakers.

At this point, it is very hard to predict how the CA63 will sound. Even if we assume the Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI) will be an improvement, it will still take a good speaker system to bring out the benefit. This is an unknown.

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#1284780 - 10/11/09 10:46 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: Tony Lau]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
I don't like very much the sound of my CA 51, it's rather like a recorded sound and it doesn't sound very much like a real piano. But it's not a problem to play, it's steal better than other DPs, even with a better sound. As a matter of fact, I sometimes go to DP shop and everytimes I finish playing on a kawai CA (I admit that roland hp 207 is pleasant too).

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#1284787 - 10/11/09 10:59 AM Re: Kawai CA93 and CA63, will they be available worldwide so [Re: sieg66]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
I noticed on my CA111 it sounds best with the Concert Grand 1, everything left at 5 (resonances), and I like a big reverb myself, no eq. It sounds great out of the speakers, but with headphones I use Ivory (I don't like the sound of the kawai on a headphone).
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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