I read in this forum about improved piano sampling used in the new Kawai CNx2 series and was curious when it would appear on the CA series ... guess what I found?

link to google translated announcement

Looks very promising but not sure when (or whether) they will be available outside of Japan ...

If you know something or would like to comment on these pianos please feel free to share ...

Tony

Some new features when compared with current generation:
- a new wood RM3 Grand keyboard with ivory feel
- ultra-progressive harmonic imaging (UPHI) with 88 key stereo sampling (I believe there are 4 samples per key)
- USB interface

Hello Tony,


I am curious as to why you believe this to be the case - may I ask if you have read this information somewhere online?


Yes. This allows MP3/WAV files to be recorded and played back directly.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi James,

I got the idea from this page:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca93/UPHI.html

The diagram showed samples (from weak to strong) D, C, B, A.

I don't know if this is technically correct or it is just an illustration of the idea.

Hello Tony,

You are correct, this illustration is intended to provide a general explanation of how the new 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' system is employed. However it over-simplifies the process somewhat, and is therefore not technically correct.

KAWAI will be using a similar illustration in it's non-Japanese CA93/CA63 marketing materials, however I shall ensure that readers are fully aware that the image is a simplified interpretation and not a technical representation of the process.

Many thanks for highlighting this important point.

Kind regards,
James
x

I recently noticed a subtle difference between CA93 and CA63 beside the number of tones (80 vs 60) and the speaker system (soundboard vs none). The CA93's keyboard provides a "let off feel" (hope I translate it right), which probably means the simulation of the escapement.

Correct.

James
x

Wow sounds cool! so what is so special about this new action compared to their old AWA PROII?

How about giving us a more technical and complete explanation here? This is a very important point, particularly given the crossroads the industry seems to be standing at in choosing between better sampling and physical reproduction technology on the one hand and modelling approaches on the other.

I checked the Kawai Japan website and this translated page may help explain some of the new features of the RM3 action:

CA 93 features

The ivory feel and escapement are new. There are some other subtle refinements such as key material, weighing and pivot positioning (fulcrum) for black and white keys to make it feel even more like a grand piano.

My piano playing skill will not do CA93 justice :), but I am eager to find out how much CA63 will sell for in Canada when it arrives. Hopefully not a gigantic jump from the current price of the CA51.

Tony

I wonder when... These babies should be released before Christmas.

People can buy CA63 in Japan for $2,555 (to be shipped on the 13 of November) via Yahoo shopping.

I hope someone will enlighten us with first impressions of CA93 later this month. Anyone from Japan?

A local dealer (in the Greater Vancouver area in Canada) mentioned it may not arrive until Feb-March next year. The dealer does not know the price yet.

If that’s the case, I guess they first want CA51, CA71 and CA91 nearly sold out. I hope this is not Kawai’s strategy. It would be very nice of KAWAI James to let us know when to expect CA63 and CA93 in North America and Europe.

I believe the V-Piano is still the only purely modelled digital piano currently available. While I am sure we will see this technology filter down to other - presumably less expensive - products in the future, I believe sampled pianos (or a combination of sampling and modelling) will remain the preferred choice among digital piano manufacturers for the time being.

Without wishing to avoid your question (!), as KAWAI's Harmonic Imaging technology is a proprietary system, I'm afraid I cannot go into great detail explaining how the piano sound is produced . However, as you might expect, the most recent UPHI implementation allows for an even greater level of expressiveness than previously possible with the current PHI ('Progressive Harmonic Imaging') and original 'Harmonic Imaging' techniques.

When consumers play test the new CA93/CA63 (and other upcoming instruments that will use the UPHI sound source), I'm confident that they will be pleasantly surprised by the improvement in sound technology over the current CA91/CA71/CA51 models.

Cheers,
James
x

Nikola Tulimirovic, I am aware of your queries, and shall attempt to respond to them a little later.

Kind regards,
James
x

That’s great. Thank you, James.

I am tired so my calculations may be wrong, even simple ones. It looks like the price of CA63 in Japan is between the price of CA51 and the price of CA71.

Hello Nikola,

I'm afraid I do not really have any fixed dates for the US/Europe launch - this is decided upon by KAWAI US and KAWAI Europe. My recommendation would be to contact each subsidiary company to ask when the new models will be available.



Yes, you are correct. However this pricing structure may/may not change when the instruments are introduced outside of Japan.

Kind regards,
James
x

Neither North America nor Europe will see these digitals in 2009. I’ve got replies from both Kawai US and Kawai UK. I’m still waiting for Kawai Germany and a bit more precise estimate from Kawai UK, but I expect no dramatic changes and intend to make my final decision soon. That decision will almost certainly be buying CA51, as soon as possible.

I am a bit disappointed (really wanted to get my fingers on RM3), but also happy to put an end to all this madness.

Now I really have to work and sleep for a while...

James, thanks for your help and effort. Good luck to all of you waiting! I’ll keep you posted in case I get any news on the topic.

I probably will "struggle" with my Casio CDP-100 a few more months before deciding what to get. In the mean time I plan to try out the CA51 to get a sense of what a it feels and sounds like.

Keep us posted.

Tony, in terms of sound comparison, I would recommend play-testing the CN32/CN42 (or CN22/CN18 if the higher specification CN instruments are unavailable) over the CA51. The more recent KAWAI models utilise the 88-key sampling source which will also be used in the CA93/CA63, albeit by way of the more expressive Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging system.

Cheers,
James
x

In UK they expect to sell CA63 and CA93 in January, probably second half, but are not sure. Kawai Germany did’t respond.

No surprises here. Kawai Germany is a disgrace to the company. These people should be fired and replaced with something that works.

Only a little off topic. Will Kawai offer a system update to the ES6 which will allow the ES6 to incorporate 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' at any time in the future?

The Kawai website says the ES6 incorporates the "Harmonic Imaging sound technology with 88-note piano sampling". This is relatively new, compared to the Harmony Imaging technology (not with 88-note piano sampling) used in the "older" CAx1 and CNx1 series.

There are now three levels of Harmonic Imaging:

- Harmonic Imaging (ES6, CN22)
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CN32, CN42)
- Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CA63, CA93)

with higher level technology incorporated into higher-end products.

It’s not the first time, so I have to agree, at least partially. They need one KAWAI James, I say.



I doubt it (rare business strategy, much closer to software developers), but it would be nice.

With the ES6 being Kawai's newest, highest end 'slab', perhaps there's a chance Kawai will provide an update.

I know - I know nobody 'can', but would somebody care to describe the differences?

In the past KAWAI have indeed made software updates available for download that improve instruments by adding new functionality - this was the case with the original MP8, which has received a number of software updates to implement many features introduced with the MP8II.

However, as UPHI utilises brand new hardware (currently only available in the CA93/CA63), I believe it's unlikely that such functionality will be possible via an ES6 software update.



Again, I cannot go into technical details, however I can tell you that Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI) allows pianists to covey a greater level of expression in their playing, while Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI), enhances this expressiveness even further.

Kind regards,
James
x

I finally went to the only Kawai dealer in the Vancouver area that carries the CA51. The CA51 action is heavier than the CN21 in a good way. This store does not have the CNx2 models and therefore I cannot compare the sound between the current and newer sound engines. I did not bring my own headphone, which was also an issue because the headphone at the store was pretty bad -- the sound was muffled and congested.

Playing through the built-in speakers, the bass from the CA51 sounded a bit strange. I do not know if it was to do with the speakers or the sound engine. I would like to hear how others feel about the sound of CA51, through the headphone and through the speakers.

At this point, it is very hard to predict how the CA63 will sound. Even if we assume the Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI) will be an improvement, it will still take a good speaker system to bring out the benefit. This is an unknown.

I don't like very much the sound of my CA 51, it's rather like a recorded sound and it doesn't sound very much like a real piano. But it's not a problem to play, it's steal better than other DPs, even with a better sound. As a matter of fact, I sometimes go to DP shop and everytimes I finish playing on a kawai CA (I admit that roland hp 207 is pleasant too).

I noticed on my CA111 it sounds best with the Concert Grand 1, everything left at 5 (resonances), and I like a big reverb myself, no eq. It sounds great out of the speakers, but with headphones I use Ivory (I don't like the sound of the kawai on a headphone).

I think it has to do something with speakers. When I was testing CA51, I didn’t care much about the sound, as I intend to use my 4 speakers, each 300W, and later hook it all up to my PC. For me, Kawai’s sound is just a temporary solution. It’s not that I don’t like its patches, it’s just that I think software pianos will always be better for me, easier to upgrade, I buy computers often, etc. And I really don’t want to compare Vienna Instruments Bösendorfer Imperial on 4x300W with Kawai’s patches on 2x40W.

My neighbors do not agree with the solution I prefer.

I started new thread for Kawai CAx1 pianos: Kawai CA51 / CA61 / CA71 / CA91. This one should be left for CA63 and CA93.

And you know more Watts is always better, just look at brands like LG, they have so much more Watts than Cambridge or NAD.

My requirement is a bit different. I want a digital piano that is good enough to stand-alone by itself so that I can use it simply as a musical instrument for learning and playing music. I look for good touch as well as good sound. I hope the CA63 will fit my requirements.

I also want my computer to just work, and therefore I am a mac user

Not LG, of course.

I have QSC Audio amplifier and fine speakers I made with a friend. These speakers don’t have fancy labels for eyes to catch, not unless you open a box and take a look inside.

The point here is that many pianists have computers to browse the web and fine audio equipment they use only to listen to recorded music, even though such equipment could be used to turn living room into concert hall. AWA Grand Pro II is very good. We’ll see about RM3, but I expect it to be the best you can get for less then $3,000.



I understand. A friend of mine is a very good pianist. Although aware of possibilities brought to us by computers, he doesn’t like the idea and stays with you on this.

Hi!

Have you heard when these models will be released in Europe yet?

/Andrée

Yes. I guess the end of January or the beginning of February is the best time to expect these in Sweden. Here’s what Kawai Germany has to say...



I have to apologize to Kawai Germany because my initial inquiry was sent to the acoustic piano division, not the digital piano division. When it was sent to the correct department at Kawai Germany, a reply was sent to me the very same day, yet was incorrectly flagged as spam by GMail’s filter.

Nikola, thank you for clarifying the situation.

I'm not entirely sure why your initial email sent to the acoustic piano department was not immediately forwarded to the digital piano team, however I'm glad to hear that once they did receive the query, the digital guys responded promptly.

Kind regards,
James
x

James, have the CA93 and CA63 been released in Japan yet? Do you know where to get any demos or sound-examples at this time?

/Andrée

No need to thank, really. It’s a normal thing to do.




I’m not sure either. Maybe they didn’t recognize model names. After all, CA63 and CA93 are digital pianos yet to be released.

Andrée, the CA93 and CA63 were officially unveiled to the public at a recent event in Tokyo. I have a Japanese magazine article covering the story that I may be able to post if there is sufficient interest.

In terms of the Japanese launch date, the CA93 is due for release on Friday (23rd October), with the CA63 due for launch on the 13th November.

I do not believe demos/sound samples have been made officially available, however I am confident that they will be accessible via the KAWAI Japan website in the near future, followed by KAWAI's overseas websites in the coming months.

Kind regards,
James
x

Kawai America/Canada indicates that they will be available "early next year" and no pricing information at this time.

James, thanks for your post. I thought both models had been released already but I was wrong. If you have the review it would be very interesting to take part of it.

/Andrée

Andrée, the article in question just covers the recent unveiling event in Tokyo. It discusses the features of the new models, but does not review them in significant detail.

Unfortunately, I do not have permission to reproduce (scan) the article and post it here. My apologies.

Kind regards,
James
x

Do we know if Kawai improved their cabinet style?
When I checked the CA91/71 some months ago, the cabinets were a major put off...
Based on below high res pic it looks better, but I guess it's hard to say until you see it with your own eyes..
http://www.kawai.co.jp/info/material/photo/2009/20090916-1-1L.jpg

altrent, yes the cabinet designs have been completely remodelled. The CA93 and CA63 are similar in appearance to the CA18, with the panel buttons moved to the left cheek block.

I personally prefer the new CA93/CA63 designs to the CA91/CA71/CA51, although that's not to say that the older instruments are necessarily ugly. I'm curious as to what aspect of these model's design you found to be unappealing.

Additional images of the new instrument can be seen on the KAWAI Japan website:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca93/gallery.html
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca63/gallery.html

Additional images will of course be made available in due.

Indeed, I'd be interested to hear reactions to the appearance of the new models.

Cheers,
James
x

James,

Thanks for the reply.
I recall the cabinet looking, and feeling really 'plastic' like. The key cover also had big gap on either side (> 1/4 inch) which means you could rock it from side to side.
The HP207 that I tried just before had a much more solid look and feel.

Cheers,

I've been searching on reactions to CA93, and found some interesting information from some Japanese blogs/forums. Despite my lack of understanding of Japanese sentence structure, I can pick up some factual information at least ...

http://croakcrawlers.blog7.fc2.com/blog-entry-123.html

The writer compares the lengths between the tip of the key to the pivot point among Kawai, Roland and Yamaha DPs. Kawai=19cm, Yamaha and Roland ~= 21.5cm.

The writer also commented on the position of the pedal, depth wise, relative to the front of the key panel. CA93 = 20.5cm, Yamaha CLPs ~= 25.5cm, Roland HP207 ~= 27cm, Roland RG3 (digital grand) ~= 29cm. This is related to the overall reduced depth of the CA93 compared to the other models. I have very little experience with playing on a piano (digital or acoustic) with a pedal and therefore really do not know how the key/pedal relation of the CA93 is compared to real pianos. Perhaps it's closer to uprights? How much does it affect playing?

The writer (I am guessing) complimented on the new RM3 keyboard in terms of its responsiveness to quick repeated play on the same key when talking about CA63. He (?) also compared the touch between CA63 and CA93. The escapement (available on CA93) does something to the feel of play but I cannot tell if he thought it was a positive or a negative.

I would greatly appreciate if a Japanese speaking member could translate the blog entry to be shared with all who are interested in this topic.

Thanks!

Tony

A translation would be great since the Google translator was quite bad to use

/Andrée

Gee, it's too long. Just a few points.

*RM3 inherits the unique soft (suave) touch of AWA Grand Pro II.
*The ‘let-off-feel’ is more realistic than Roland’s ‘escapement’. However, as the result of this feature, the minimum amount of strength you need to apply in order to make the key ‘sound’ is more than the acoustic piano. It also seems to reduce the capacity of repeating the same key quickly.
*The touch is the heaviest among all the DP.
*Ivory feel is similar to the Yamaha’s. The gaps between the keys have become smaller. The black keys are now indeed easier to play due to the hinder pivot point but the white keys are still shorter comparing to the Yamaha/Roland model.
*Sound is similar to CA12’s but high notes now sound milder and very piano-like.
*It is the smallest and the most stylish DP in its category. However the location of the pedals is sacrificed.
*CA63 comes without the ‘let-off-feel’ and the keys come back more quickly. As a result, the keys follow your fingers’ movement. The author was astonished by the accomplishment of this new RM3 keyboard, which he/she was not quite able to feel while playing the CA93.


By the way, I asked the KAWAI Australia and they said these two models would be available around March/April next year.

James, do you think Kawai will discontinue with the non-ivory wooden keys? If that is the case, I will buy CA18 now although CA63 looks very promising...

Thanks for the translation Gunter. CA 63 looks very promising. It's just a shame that they have only improved the distance to fulcrum for the black keys and not the white.

It's a good thing that they have reduced the gap between the keys and improved the hight notes, and especially, that they improved the key return speed.

Sieg66, the reason why Kawai has improved the distance to the fulcrum just for the black keys, is because the black keys are shorter than the white ones. If they had to increase the distance for the white as well, the keys would have to be longer. Also, the return speed of the key seems to be improved only in the CA93, are you not satisfied with the speed of return in your CA51?

/Andrée

Thanks a lot for the translation.
I have to ask you about the release of the CA93 and CA63 outside Japan, is it true that it will take until March/April?

/Andrée

Thanks Gunter for the translation. That clarifies many points that my poor Japanese could not figure out.

Yes, the CA63 looks promising. Hopefully we'll see more feedback from Japan when it becomes available Nov 13 and we'll do another round of translations

Yes Andrée, I don't know how they could have done, but it would have been nice if they had improved this for the white keys too. It could have been longer keys or not central pivot point, I don't know, but on my ca51 the keys are somewhat hard to play when played in the back.

Gunter, thank you for posting this translation. I was very interested to read the opinions of this blogger - he/she would appear to be rather knowledgeable about digital piano keyboard action and sound technology. However, I believe it's important to remember that this is the personal opinion of just one individual, and as we all know, opinions do vary.



Currently, all models that utilise the new RM3 Grand action (CA93, CA63, CP209, CP179, CP139) are equipped with Ivory Touch key surfaces.

However, it's possible that future lower priced instruments that utilise the RM3 Grand action (a successor to the CA18, for example) may adopt the standard (i.e. non-Ivory Touch) key surfaces.

[quote=Andrée]I have to ask you about the release of the CA93 and CA63 outside Japan, is it true that it will take until March/April?

This is the response from KAWAI Australia. However, given your location, I would suggest the date provided by KAWAI Europe (end of January) would be more the appropriate guide.

Kind regards,
James
x

Almost all other digital pianos use a "folding" hammer action that takes up space underneath the key instead of in front of it.

I am guessing that moving the pivot point further away from the tip of the key can result in the increase in over depth of the piano, which is the opposite of what Kawai (or what Kawai thinks customers) wants. In fact, CA93 at 48cm is slimmer than its natural competitors like CLP-380 (512mm), Roland HP-207 (529mm), despite the inclusion of the soundboard speaker system.

A cm or two seems to matter a lot!

I'm not sure of this but I think the length from the key front to the pivot point is not interesting in this case, since the different brands use different techniques. In the case of Kawai, the length between the front and the pivot point is the same as the leverage for the key. For both Yamaha and Roland the weights are located before the pivot point, which means that the length between the front and the pivot point is not the same as the leverage for the key. I'm not able to give you an answer of how big the leverage is using this technique, but I believe it must be shorter than for Kawai, probably not longer than to the place of where the hammer is connected to the key.

/Andrée

Yes, this is a good point. The pivot point for most - if not all - other manufacturers' keyboard actions is located at the back of the key, resulting in a 'lever' movement.

KAWAI's wooden key action, on the other hand, places the pivot point at the centre of the key, resulting in a more natural 'seesaw' movement - just like that of an acoustic piano.

Cheers,
James
x

A video of the CA93! Unfortunately the video can convey neither the touch nor sound of the instrument :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTIBzaqNOiQ

I think the sound is awesome, but it is very difficult to hear and perhaps the brightness in the treble part is too bright. However, it is still quite a bad recording

There seem to be 2 USB connectors, one for USB devices and one for an USB host. I suppose the connection to USB devices will be used to read/write MP3 and WAV files. That's fine. But what exact purpose does the USB host connection have? Can it be used instead of MIDI? Or anything else like that?

Correct, the 'USB to Host' connector provides an alternative to the older MIDI connectors.

Kind regards,
James
x

My 2p worth:

I much prefer the look of the CA63/93 to the CA51/71/91 series. I like the fact that it looks more like a 'real' piano - there isn't a row of buttons in front of the keys. I also like the extra legs and the spaced out Kawai lettering. Another thing that I disliked on the CA71 and CA91 were the handles on the key cover.

I was seriously considering a CA18, but was put off by the lack of midi. I could afford a CA51, but much preferred the look of the CA18. Now I can have both if I wait around for a CA63 :o).

Its also good to see the inputs at the front rather than the back, though that will probably make it look messy if you permanently have something plugged into it.

Do we know if there is going to be a version in Rosewood? I see that the only two versions in Japan are black and cherry.

Andy

Yes, both the CA93 and CA63 will be available in Premium Rosewood when they arrive in Europe.

Kind regards,
James
x

James, How would you compare the CA93 to the HP307 now that both are on the market in Japan?

theJourney, I have not had the chance to play the HP307 (or indeed, any of the new HP30x model for that matter...). I shall have to pay a visit to the Roland shop, possibly this weekend.

The marketing materials do look very detailed and impressive, however, so I fully expect the new Roland instruments to provide plenty of competition for the new KAWAI models.

Cheers,
James
x

And in a year or so they will introduce:

- Super-Duper-Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging (SUX54, SUX84).

Can't tell you ANY details without having to kill you afterward. Sampling is a super-secret, need-to-know, highly proprietary thing. You probably wouldn't understand it anyway.

The design between the CA93/63 is also different if you have noticed this aspect. Personally I prefer the design of the CA93

LOL. You should ask James if you could work as an intern in his copywriting department!

I suspect something less exciting ... like "Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging II" two year later

The question is still, what does the Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging sound like? We want a demo, right? Perhaps KAWAI James has something useful?

It's been a life-long dream of mine to be a junior copy boy! Let me have a crack at it: (clears throat)

"KAWAI's Super Duper Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging technology is a proprietary system, I'm afraid I cannot go into great detail explaining how the piano sound is produced. However, as you might expect, the most recent SDUPHI implementation allows for an even greater level of expressiveness than previously possible with the current UPHI ('Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging'), PHI ('Progressive Harmonic Imaging') and original 'Harmonic Imaging' techniques."

"When consumers play test the new SUX54/SUX84 (and other upcoming instruments that will use the SDUPHI sound source), I'm confident that they will be pleasantly surprised by the improvement in sound technology over the current CA91/CA71/CA51/CA63/CA93 models."

How did I do?

[edit] OK, that was mean. But I'm kind of surprised this board allows corporate toadies free reign. No offense intended.

Hello,

are the three samples at the bottom of this page UPHI?
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/guide/sound.html
(2 piano and 1 e-piano songs only available for CA 63 and CA 93)

Cheers
Jazzist

P.S. I appreciate company guys to contribute to discussions, even more when it is clear that this information is from a specific company (like obviously KAWAI James). Of course there are always official company communication rules to follow. I think, everyone working for a company knows that, so do not blame individuals for sparse information (except for the CEO ;-) ).

James and others....we are debating on getting the CA61 now or waiting for the CA63. Any updates on when the 63 will be in the US? Will it be available in Rosewood? Without seeing or playing the 63 myself any personal opinion on if you would wait for the 63?

Thanks

mdevine, I'm afraid I do not have an exact date for when the new CA93/CA63 instruments will be available in the US. My recommendation would be to contact KAWAI America directly requesting further information.

The CA63 will indeed be available in a Rosewood finish, and - as you might expect - offer a variety of improvements to the keyboard action and sound technology of the CA61, along with some useful new features. If I was in your position, and willing to wait a few months for the instruments to arrive at dealer's stores, I would almost certainly purchase the newer model.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks James. We are leaning towards waiting- while not ideal, we can actually wait until Sept 2010 if needed.

All the pics I see seem to be of the CA93.

Does the 63 have legs? Are the electronic controls to the side of the keyboard? The pics of the 93 look much cleaner around the keys vs the 61. Is it the same on the 63? Any other further details you have on the ascetics of the 63 would be most appreciated.

Happy Holidays to all.

mdevine,



Ah, the new models will almost certainly be available well before this time.



Yes, the CA63 cabinet has legs, and features the same cheek-block control panel as the CA93. In fact, from the front, both instruments are very similar in appearance. The most noticeable difference is the back because the CA63 does not utilise the soundboard speaker.

In case you have not seen them already, please take a look at the following gallery pages for the CA63 and CA93 on the KAWAI Japan website.

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca63/gallery.html
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca93/gallery.html

I have a selection of other photographs of these new models, yet am a little reluctant to show them publicly before the instruments have been officially announced outside of Japan.

I hope this helps.

Seasons greetings from Japan!

Kind regards,
James
x

Should I/others be concerned that the 63 does not use the soundboard vs the 61? Seems like a step backwards.

The CA61 was added to the CA51, CA71, and CA91 range several months after the initial product launch, and is not available outside North America.

As suggested previously, the new Concert Artist models feature very similar specifications, with the CA93's soundboard speaker being one of the main differences between the two. If the CA63 also featured a soundboard speaker I doubt there would be sufficient differentiation to distinguish the two instruments.

Should you be concerned? Well that's a tricky one to answer. True, the soundboard does have a significant impact on the overall ambience of the sound produced, however the CA63 offers considerably upgraded sound technology (88-key sampling, UPHI) to the extent that I would personally still prefer the newer model.

If possible, my recommendation would be to play-test both the CA61 and CA63 side-by-side, then decide which one you enjoy playing the most.

Kind regards,
James
x

Nobody has purchased one yet, to give us his impressions ? I have read on a german website that they are exepected to be available in february.

A dealer in Germany told me today that the CA63 will be introduced on January 27th and that the first deliveries will be made within 14 days after that. This dealer wants to sell the CA63 for "probably" 2590 EUR (ca. 3700 USD or 3100 USD without sales tax).

Hello guys,

I was going to buy a Cn42 soon, but I've found this interesting topic.

Is the Ca63 better than the Cn42?(I think so, but I'm a rookie)

Is there any way to buy the piano in Japan, and to get shipped in France?


Do you think that the Ca63 worth the difference between the Cn42 (Which is quite hard to find in France, by the way -_-)


Thank you for reading!


Vincent

Are you sure about this, it sounds very expensive to me. Would you please confirm that this price is not related to the CA93?

Salut destroyer je vois que tu as trouvé le bon forum pour te renseigner Personnellement j'ai un CA 51, la gamme précédente donc, et ça n'a déjà rien à voir avec les CN. Mais à priori il y a encore plus à espérer des nouveaux ca 63 et 93, car le clavier va être plus lourd, donc encore plus proche d'un vrai piano, et pour avoir essayé l'ancienne gamme (CA50) qui était plus lourde, c'est bluffant.

J'avais testé un jour un hp203 de roland puis juste après le vieux CA50, eh bien la claque sur le deuxième, j'avais l'impression d'être sur un vrai piano à coté. Donc on va voir ça, espérons d'ici 1 mois, en réel en magasin. Pour le prix je pense plutôt que ça sera vers 2200 € le ca 63 et 2900 le ca93.

Yes, Andree, a price of 2590 EUR for the CA63 struck me too. I am looking for a successor to the CA51 which has a list price of 1990 EUR and is currently selling for around 1800 EUR (including 19% sales tax). I will check again if the dealer quoted the price for the CA93.

This seems to be a clip of the CA 93 in home use. So there are actually some pianos out. Hopefully somebody can give us his/her first impressions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAFbDTMnkyI

As long as you know what corp he toads for, is it a problem? I will ask James about Kawai, and even if I get the sales pitch, I am confident enough in my faculties that I might evaluate it against other people's input on Kawai or different makes.

Wow, what a fantastic sound, it sounds like a real Grand to me

I have found a website that has prices for the CA63 and CA93.

CA63: £2,199.00, ~2,460 eur ~$3,600
CA93: £2,999.00 ~ 3,360 eur ~ $4,900
http://blog.sheargoldmusic.co.uk/were-still-open-its-snow-joke/

edit: I have also found this site
http://www.musik-schmidt.de/gb-Kawai-CA63.html
has the rrp of 2290 eur ($3,330, £2050)

and
http://www.musik-schmidt.de/gb-Kawai-CA93.html
rrp of 3190 eur ($4,600, £2848)

You're right, I was completely out of line and hope KAWAI James will accept my sincere apology.

But you have to admit, corporate influence here is something of a two edged sword.

Both Roland and Yamaha have announced new products at NAMM 2010. No sign of Kawai though so far ...

I went to Japan and tried out the CA93 and 63.

The sound has really improved from CA91/51. It is more like CA18’s but somehow milder. I found it a bit unrealistic to have this concert grand like loooong and rich resonance coming out from that little body, though. I personally wish they would start sampling from a good quality upright piano rather than a full concert grand.

The touch was really heavy. The shop assistant started talking about how easy it has become to play the black keys because of the hinder pivot point. I then played the black-key-etude and, wow, forget it! I got used to it quickly, though. It reminded me a good old Kawai upright piano which I played as a kid. However, if you have only played the lighter western-grand-type pianos, I’m sure it would take a while before your finger muscle gets used to it. The key strokes were firmer comparing to the old CA series. It was more reliable but I find the old AWA grand pro II’s wobbly stroke very realistic, though.

The ‘let off feel’ of CA93 was really major. I thought it rather hindered me from playing the piece properly but it was probably because I am more used to the upright pianos. (I still believe Kawai has over done this feature, though.)

I haven’t changed my mind to wait for the CA63’s release here although I need a new DP quickly. The touch is by far the best FOR ME. In short, it is a VERY JAPANESE piano, I thought.
By the way, DPs seem to be very popular products in Japan. Every major electrical shops (!) seem to sell them and even the fanciest modes are so CHEAP there!!

Hello Gunter,

Thank you for posting your comments about the CA93/CA63. I'm really looking forward to hearing the opinions of other PianoWorld members as these new instruments and materials start to arrive at dealer's stores.

Ah, I hope you had a lovely time in Japan too!

Cheers,
James
x

James, can you please explain the content of the software update in the CA63, I have namely understand that Kawai has released an update.

IF they arrive in our stores....

I enquired with the owner at our only Kawai dealer for all of Amsterdam and she said:

"Oh, sir, never heard of them. I am so sick and tired of digital pianos and Kawai's constant new models. I may or may not get it, but really they are all the same anyway, there is no need to buy a new one if you already have one at home. Now, if you will excuse me, I need to talk to these other people in the store who don't already have a piano at home. They might buy one our Perzinas. Goodbye."

With horrible retail outlets and lousy distribution like that, Kawai will have to pull off a real miracle to sell any.

I also have tried CA93 several times in some stores.

Touch)
Very good. I agree with Gunter's review.

Sound)
Good but still I had some complaints. Especially, I minded the quality of the attack of sound.
In acoustic pianos, non-linear and transient phenomena happen when a hummer strikes strings. These non-linear transient attacks make piano sound more realistic. However I felt CA93's attack was too smooth. In other words, I felt something like listening to someone who didn't pronounce consonants clearly. This weak point was not improved by tweaking the parameter of hummer hardness.
In the store, I also tried Roland HP307 and Yamaha CLP-380, and I felt these two had more realistic attacks than CA93.

# But this weak point is not always bad. For example, in cases of accompaniments, these smooth attacks don't disturb other instrument's sound.

What I wrote is just what I felt. I'm looking forward to other one's review.

mezzo-poor, thanks for your review. It would be interesting to hear your overall feedback of the CA93, quality, realism etc. compared to the other two pianos you tried as well, Roland HP307 and Yamaha CLP380

Let me correct typos.

hummer -> hammer

Hummer must be a hard vehicle.

Hi, could you explain me these two points ? What was the issue with the new black key touch ? Don't the white keys feel less progressive now in comparison of the black ones ?

And about the key stroke, does it mean that the top of the key is harder(what is called first load and which is rather light on an acoustic piano), and not only the whole depressing ?

Hi Gunter and mezzo-poor,

Since you both have tried the new CA93 it would be very interesting to hear some comments about the (improved) sound. What can you say about the dynamic range, did you feel that you had control over the piano and that you could raise the velocity in an authentic way? When I listen to the samples available on the Internet it seems that the sound generator plays with high velocity relatively easy. It is very difficult to hear the midrange of this piano. What do you have to say about this, does the piano have good dynamics?

Comments would be appreciated

/Andrée

Hi guys...

Check these links out, just went up a few hours ago...nice sound in stereo direct from the line outs...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusikSchmidt#p/u/3/GVkTwquSAFo

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusikSchmidt#p/u/2/di2bTB7sny4

Top one is the 63, bottom one is the 93.

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Andree,

I think there are two issues about "Dynamic range of a piano". One is velocity vs. loudness, and another is velocity vs. tones.

For velocity vs. loudness, I felt CA93 had natural and controllable characteristics.

For velocity vs. tones, let me compare CA93, HP307 and CLP380. I felt CA93 was the mildest and mellowest piano among three. Generally, mellow pianos have moderate change of tones along velocity. So the change of tones along velocity from ppp to fff in CA93 was most moderate among three. I wanted more change of tones for CA93 (It might comes from my preference. I like bright pianos.). You can choose voicing from mellower, mellow, normal, bright, brighter and dynamic in CA93. If you choose "dynamic", the change of tones become wider. But still I felt that CA93 was the most moderate.

Just some impressions from my recent experience with CA-63:

I'm from Munich and was looking for a digital piano since some months, I am used to play on a real piano, but at home I only have a weighted master keyboard using a quality sampled piano on my notebook. But now I wanted a home piano, also for my daughter who is a beginner (started learning piano 6 months ago).

I was always thinking of getting a Yamaha CLP since almost everyone was recommending it. Lately I played several CLPs at the local dealer, and I was pretty sure to get the CLP-340.

Before buying it I decided to try also the other top brands (Roland, KAWAI, Casio, Korg). I tried the CA-51, and guess what, I was just amazed by the sound and impressed by the feel of the keys. It really was something very similar of what I was used to playing a real piano.

Then I checked the internet and got some information about a new CA-63 which will be released soon (also read this thread!). My local dealer told me that it's just 2 weeks until they get a demo model. Yesterday was the day:

I went to the dealer and played CA-63 for as long as 2 hours. Result: Absolutely amazing! Significantly better than the CA-51/CA-71: The keyboard feels a little bit stronger (which is better in my taste since I also like the strong keyboard of the CLPs). The keyboard also has the new Ivory-feel which is also a big improvement in my opinion. The touch is really great, it's faster than the touch of teh CA-51 (which was also good, but a little wobbly), repetition is easier. In general a significant improvement.

But then the sound: This was really a surprise to me since I didn't expect any big change, but man was I wrong. I especially like the sound of the Concert Grand 1 and of the Studio Grand 1 und 2, but also the other sounds are really more than decent, E-Pianos and Strings for example. Sustain- and String-Resonance help to get a rich sound experience, but I think these are pretty much the same as in CA-51. The overall sound of the pianos in my ears are more authentic than the general Yamaha sound, not that spectacular/bright, but definitely much more realistic. Maybe Yamaha sound is preferable for Pop/Rock production, but I'm only playing solo!

Recording to a USB-Stick is really easy, I recorded all my testing since I had a USB-Stick with me, the recording just sounds amazing.

On the downside: There were some limitations with the resonance effects with the former CA-Series, these are still not solved:

1) Press a key very loudly with sustain-pedal down, then press the same key very soft and then release the sustain pedal --> Only the second, very quiet sound will be played! That's definitely not the behavior of a real piano.

2) Also the String-resonance is not absolutely perfect: It only works if you don't press the sustain pedal. So after playing notes holding down the sustain pedal, and then releasing the sustain pedal with holding down a key that was not actively played but should have some string resonance, there is no string resonance.

That's a pity: What's so difficult to solve these limitations / defects? But I think these are only very subtle effects which are not really noticeable during "normal" play, so for me it's a minor issue.

But to come to an end: I didn'T hesitate and immediately ordered one CA-63! Next week it will be delivered! I'm desperately looking forward having it at home!

Steve,

Thanks a lot for these videos, they were absolutely fantastic. I have to say that I'm very impressed of the sound that Kawai has created for these pianos, well done.

/Andrée

mezzo-poor and Kawaian, thanks for your input

/Andrée

Steve, thank you for posting these videos.

I wonder why the reviewer didn't mention the new USB Audio playback/record function of the CA93/CA63? This is a very useful feature in my opinion.

kawaian, thank you posting your experience with the new CA models. Regarding the resonance functionality, the CA93/CA63 offer both string and damper resonance features, with the amount of each kind of resonance adjustable through the Virtual Technician menu.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi Andree,

Did you see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zskTjviRY3s&feature=related

It is difficult to make comparison of pianos in different advertisements or demos but this might be helpful for you.

mezzo-poor, yes I have seen it but I think it's quite silly that they don't show more about the piano sound, it's actually the most interesting feature in this model. However I have to say that I'm not impressed of what I have heard, in my opinion Kawai has a lot more personality in their sound than Roland has. Still, I'm uncertain about the dynamics in the new Kawai models, in my opinion it seems to be too easy to create ff and fff when playing, I wonder where the midrange disappeard

@Andree, that's all a matter of what "touch" you select. There's normal, light, light+, hard, hard+, and also custom. I also prefer hard, so that you need more pressure to reach ff and fff...

Hi mezzo-poor and kawaian,

When you auditioned the CA93 or CA63, were you hearing them with headphones or the on-board loudspeakers and are you satisfied with their piano sound?

I currently play on a Casio CDP100 which at first sounded quite realistic to my untrained ears but since I started using a pair of good quality headphones I cannot stand the on-board loudspeakers anymore

Thanks,
Tony

@Tony Lau, I heard them with a good pair of Beyerdynamic DT-770 headphones (which I usually use at home). I also tried the build-in loudspeakers, and they were "good enough" for my ears, nothing to rave about, but quite realistic (it was in a quite noisy shop area, so I cannot really tell how it will sound at home). What is good about the loudspeakers (I tried CA-63) that the keys are vibrating when using them with appropriate volume.

Yes I know, and both effects sound really convincing, but still there are the limitations as I mentioned in my first posting, and I'm wondering why manufacturers still are not able to overcome these limitations. They can easily be checked and identified, and one would at least think that they are not too complicated to solve...

Hi Tony Lau,

I used my noise-canceling headphones. I couldn't evaluate the sound in the range ppp-mp from loudspeakers due to noisy environment.

I had the chance to play a CA63, CA93 and CA18 in Sheargolds in Maidenhead at the weekend.

For the music I was playing (at relatively low volume), I couldn't tell the difference between the CA63/93/18. The 63 and 93 are a lot heavier though, to the extent that I could feel that I had had a bit of a work out on the 63 and 93. I was worried that because the 63 and 93 had heavier actions they would exhibit thumping noises (as you get on clavinovas, and Roland hp series), but I am happy to report that there was none of that - perhaps there was even less thumping than the CA18...

I played a CA111 some time ago, and was a bit let down by the directionality of the sound. It may have been that it wasn't set up correctly, but the sound sounded like it was coming from the back of the piano, rather than being directed towards the player. I found that the CA93 did not experience this issue.

I spoke a little to the dealer and he said that in the UK, the CA63 is available in all the same colours as the CA18, with the satin black and chrome finish particularly nice (but I didn't see that, and I like Rosewood myself). The CA93 isn't available in cherry at the moment.

This was only my first viewing. I spent about an hour, but I didn't notice the escapement feel of the CA93, or try much music at the very high or low ends.

AndyT, may I ask which shop you went to play the new models?

Cheers,
James
x

I've edited my post above.
Andy T

Thank you Andy, and for your interesting comments.

Regarding the availability of finishes, I can tell you that - in Europe at least - the CA63 will be available in all four standard finishes, while the CA93 will be available in Premium Rosewood and Premium Black Satin.

For me, the CA93's let-off/escapement is very subtle. I only notice it when playing individual notes softly. However the professional musicians that assisted with the development of the new RM3 Grand action, all believed that it improved the realism of the keyboard feel.

Cheers,
James
x

Are there other important differences in the new keyboard and the last one?

theJourney, there are three major improvements to the 'RM3 Grand' action over 'AWA Grand Pro II':

- Ivory Touch key surfaces (textured, moisture absorbent)
- Separate balance pin positions for black/white keys (more like an acoustic)
- Let-off mechanism, aka 'escapement' (currently CA93, CP209/CP179 only)

These improvements are highlighted in a new 'RM3 Grand' PoP display produced for KAWAI dealers - a digital version of which can be found on the KAWAI Europe website:

http://kawai.de/grafik/rm3grandpop_big.jpg

There are also changes to the shape of the hammers, as well as adjustments to the static/dynamic key weight.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers,
James
x

Thanks for that!

Oh, and are the user manuals on line somewhere we can take a look?
I would like to know how the connectivity options work with USB and all as well as know which the 20 voices are that are not included on the 63

To me the biggest obvious difference was the weight of the keys. I could feel the difference between the ivory touch and non-ivory touch, but I didn't realy have a preference either way. The ivory touch may be better for my sweaty paws though. :o)

I too would be interested in the manuals. I am suprised there isn't anything on the European Kawai website about the 63 & 93.

theJourney, KAWAI Europe don't appear to have their English language CA93/CA63 pages online yet, however the brochure and owner's manual PDFs are available on the server:

Brochure: http://kawai.de/service/ca93_63_catalog.pdf
Manual: http://kawai.de/service/ca93_63_e.pdf

The sound list is on page pp.83.

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Great song name on page pp.79 too...

nor their Dutch ones. Nor does KawaiUS...
Kawai must be a low budget operation internally.
I hope they are paying you well!! ha!

Thanks for this again.

The CA 51 allready had this problem, the sound jumped too quickly from p to f. But using user preference in virtual technician menu you can get (not easily) a more natural curb and more present midrange.

What about the way escapment work ? Can you reach the hard point and then still get a sound, like with pha III ? How many sensor there is ? Can we repeat a note without dumpering it before, like in a real piano ?

@theJourney, yes, you can download the manual on the German website www.kawai.de, unfortunately only in German, if I recall correctly.

Edit: Ooops, I'm way too late with this information...

hooray, I see the pages are online now
http://www.kawai.de/homepage_en.htm

I was under the impression that the CA63 and the CA93 had the same keyboard action. Is there no escapement in the CA63?

No there is no escapement in the CA63

The CA93 and CA63 are finally listed on the Kawai US website!

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/09_dpmain.html

Hi there. I'm new to the digital piano world. I am used to playing a grand (Yahama C3) but I need a silent digital (ie headphoned) for evening practise at my home. Not bothered about the sound since I do have an acoustic - it's all about the action. My question is:Which models of digital pianos use an actual hammer action using a gravity return hammer as in my grand? I know the Kawai CA93/63 do, as do the Yamaha AvantGrand. Are there any other makes? Do Roland do one (does the HP307 use an actual gravity return hammer?). My budget is $5000 for a digital instrument that closest emulates the action of my C3 grand (I can't afford the AvantGrand). Thanks

Technocube, I have answered this question in your other thread

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...A63.html#UNREAD