I read in this forum about improved piano sampling used in the new Kawai CNx2 series and was curious when it would appear on the CA series ... guess what I found?

link to google translated announcement

Looks very promising but not sure when (or whether) they will be available outside of Japan ...

If you know something or would like to comment on these pianos please feel free to share ...

Tony

Some new features when compared with current generation:
- a new wood RM3 Grand keyboard with ivory feel
- ultra-progressive harmonic imaging (UPHI) with 88 key stereo sampling (I believe there are 4 samples per key)
- USB interface

Hello Tony,


I am curious as to why you believe this to be the case - may I ask if you have read this information somewhere online?


Yes. This allows MP3/WAV files to be recorded and played back directly.

Kind regards,
James
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Hi James,

I got the idea from this page:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca93/UPHI.html

The diagram showed samples (from weak to strong) D, C, B, A.

I don't know if this is technically correct or it is just an illustration of the idea.

Hello Tony,

You are correct, this illustration is intended to provide a general explanation of how the new 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' system is employed. However it over-simplifies the process somewhat, and is therefore not technically correct.

KAWAI will be using a similar illustration in it's non-Japanese CA93/CA63 marketing materials, however I shall ensure that readers are fully aware that the image is a simplified interpretation and not a technical representation of the process.

Many thanks for highlighting this important point.

Kind regards,
James
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I recently noticed a subtle difference between CA93 and CA63 beside the number of tones (80 vs 60) and the speaker system (soundboard vs none). The CA93's keyboard provides a "let off feel" (hope I translate it right), which probably means the simulation of the escapement.

Correct.

James
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Wow sounds cool! so what is so special about this new action compared to their old AWA PROII?

How about giving us a more technical and complete explanation here? This is a very important point, particularly given the crossroads the industry seems to be standing at in choosing between better sampling and physical reproduction technology on the one hand and modelling approaches on the other.

I checked the Kawai Japan website and this translated page may help explain some of the new features of the RM3 action:

CA 93 features

The ivory feel and escapement are new. There are some other subtle refinements such as key material, weighing and pivot positioning (fulcrum) for black and white keys to make it feel even more like a grand piano.

My piano playing skill will not do CA93 justice :), but I am eager to find out how much CA63 will sell for in Canada when it arrives. Hopefully not a gigantic jump from the current price of the CA51.

Tony

I wonder when... These babies should be released before Christmas.

People can buy CA63 in Japan for $2,555 (to be shipped on the 13 of November) via Yahoo shopping.

I hope someone will enlighten us with first impressions of CA93 later this month. Anyone from Japan?

A local dealer (in the Greater Vancouver area in Canada) mentioned it may not arrive until Feb-March next year. The dealer does not know the price yet.

If that’s the case, I guess they first want CA51, CA71 and CA91 nearly sold out. I hope this is not Kawai’s strategy. It would be very nice of KAWAI James to let us know when to expect CA63 and CA93 in North America and Europe.

I believe the V-Piano is still the only purely modelled digital piano currently available. While I am sure we will see this technology filter down to other - presumably less expensive - products in the future, I believe sampled pianos (or a combination of sampling and modelling) will remain the preferred choice among digital piano manufacturers for the time being.

Without wishing to avoid your question (!), as KAWAI's Harmonic Imaging technology is a proprietary system, I'm afraid I cannot go into great detail explaining how the piano sound is produced . However, as you might expect, the most recent UPHI implementation allows for an even greater level of expressiveness than previously possible with the current PHI ('Progressive Harmonic Imaging') and original 'Harmonic Imaging' techniques.

When consumers play test the new CA93/CA63 (and other upcoming instruments that will use the UPHI sound source), I'm confident that they will be pleasantly surprised by the improvement in sound technology over the current CA91/CA71/CA51 models.

Cheers,
James
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Nikola Tulimirovic, I am aware of your queries, and shall attempt to respond to them a little later.

Kind regards,
James
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That’s great. Thank you, James.

I am tired so my calculations may be wrong, even simple ones. It looks like the price of CA63 in Japan is between the price of CA51 and the price of CA71.

Hello Nikola,

I'm afraid I do not really have any fixed dates for the US/Europe launch - this is decided upon by KAWAI US and KAWAI Europe. My recommendation would be to contact each subsidiary company to ask when the new models will be available.



Yes, you are correct. However this pricing structure may/may not change when the instruments are introduced outside of Japan.

Kind regards,
James
x

Neither North America nor Europe will see these digitals in 2009. I’ve got replies from both Kawai US and Kawai UK. I’m still waiting for Kawai Germany and a bit more precise estimate from Kawai UK, but I expect no dramatic changes and intend to make my final decision soon. That decision will almost certainly be buying CA51, as soon as possible.

I am a bit disappointed (really wanted to get my fingers on RM3), but also happy to put an end to all this madness.

Now I really have to work and sleep for a while...

James, thanks for your help and effort. Good luck to all of you waiting! I’ll keep you posted in case I get any news on the topic.

I probably will "struggle" with my Casio CDP-100 a few more months before deciding what to get. In the mean time I plan to try out the CA51 to get a sense of what a it feels and sounds like.

Keep us posted.

Tony, in terms of sound comparison, I would recommend play-testing the CN32/CN42 (or CN22/CN18 if the higher specification CN instruments are unavailable) over the CA51. The more recent KAWAI models utilise the 88-key sampling source which will also be used in the CA93/CA63, albeit by way of the more expressive Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging system.

Cheers,
James
x

In UK they expect to sell CA63 and CA93 in January, probably second half, but are not sure. Kawai Germany did’t respond.

No surprises here. Kawai Germany is a disgrace to the company. These people should be fired and replaced with something that works.

Only a little off topic. Will Kawai offer a system update to the ES6 which will allow the ES6 to incorporate 'Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging' at any time in the future?

The Kawai website says the ES6 incorporates the "Harmonic Imaging sound technology with 88-note piano sampling". This is relatively new, compared to the Harmony Imaging technology (not with 88-note piano sampling) used in the "older" CAx1 and CNx1 series.

There are now three levels of Harmonic Imaging:

- Harmonic Imaging (ES6, CN22)
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CN32, CN42)
- Ultra-Progressive Harmonic Imaging (CA63, CA93)

with higher level technology incorporated into higher-end products.

It’s not the first time, so I have to agree, at least partially. They need one KAWAI James, I say.



I doubt it (rare business strategy, much closer to software developers), but it would be nice.

With the ES6 being Kawai's newest, highest end 'slab', perhaps there's a chance Kawai will provide an update.

I know - I know nobody 'can', but would somebody care to describe the differences?

In the past KAWAI have indeed made software updates available for download that improve instruments by adding new functionality - this was the case with the original MP8, which has received a number of software updates to implement many features introduced with the MP8II.

However, as UPHI utilises brand new hardware (currently only available in the CA93/CA63), I believe it's unlikely that such functionality will be possible via an ES6 software update.



Again, I cannot go into technical details, however I can tell you that Progressive Harmonic Imaging (PHI) allows pianists to covey a greater level of expression in their playing, while Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI), enhances this expressiveness even further.

Kind regards,
James
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I finally went to the only Kawai dealer in the Vancouver area that carries the CA51. The CA51 action is heavier than the CN21 in a good way. This store does not have the CNx2 models and therefore I cannot compare the sound between the current and newer sound engines. I did not bring my own headphone, which was also an issue because the headphone at the store was pretty bad -- the sound was muffled and congested.

Playing through the built-in speakers, the bass from the CA51 sounded a bit strange. I do not know if it was to do with the speakers or the sound engine. I would like to hear how others feel about the sound of CA51, through the headphone and through the speakers.

At this point, it is very hard to predict how the CA63 will sound. Even if we assume the Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI) will be an improvement, it will still take a good speaker system to bring out the benefit. This is an unknown.

I don't like very much the sound of my CA 51, it's rather like a recorded sound and it doesn't sound very much like a real piano. But it's not a problem to play, it's steal better than other DPs, even with a better sound. As a matter of fact, I sometimes go to DP shop and everytimes I finish playing on a kawai CA (I admit that roland hp 207 is pleasant too).

I noticed on my CA111 it sounds best with the Concert Grand 1, everything left at 5 (resonances), and I like a big reverb myself, no eq. It sounds great out of the speakers, but with headphones I use Ivory (I don't like the sound of the kawai on a headphone).

I think it has to do something with speakers. When I was testing CA51, I didn’t care much about the sound, as I intend to use my 4 speakers, each 300W, and later hook it all up to my PC. For me, Kawai’s sound is just a temporary solution. It’s not that I don’t like its patches, it’s just that I think software pianos will always be better for me, easier to upgrade, I buy computers often, etc. And I really don’t want to compare Vienna Instruments Bösendorfer Imperial on 4x300W with Kawai’s patches on 2x40W.

My neighbors do not agree with the solution I prefer.

I started new thread for Kawai CAx1 pianos: Kawai CA51 / CA61 / CA71 / CA91. This one should be left for CA63 and CA93.

And you know more Watts is always better, just look at brands like LG, they have so much more Watts than Cambridge or NAD.

My requirement is a bit different. I want a digital piano that is good enough to stand-alone by itself so that I can use it simply as a musical instrument for learning and playing music. I look for good touch as well as good sound. I hope the CA63 will fit my requirements.

I also want my computer to just work, and therefore I am a mac user

Not LG, of course.

I have QSC Audio amplifier and fine speakers I made with a friend. These speakers don’t have fancy labels for eyes to catch, not unless you open a box and take a look inside.

The point here is that many pianists have computers to browse the web and fine audio equipment they use only to listen to recorded music, even though such equipment could be used to turn living room into concert hall. AWA Grand Pro II is very good. We’ll see about RM3, but I expect it to be the best you can get for less then $3,000.



I understand. A friend of mine is a very good pianist. Although aware of possibilities brought to us by computers, he doesn’t like the idea and stays with you on this.

Hi!

Have you heard when these models will be released in Europe yet?

/Andrée

Yes. I guess the end of January or the beginning of February is the best time to expect these in Sweden. Here’s what Kawai Germany has to say...



I have to apologize to Kawai Germany because my initial inquiry was sent to the acoustic piano division, not the digital piano division. When it was sent to the correct department at Kawai Germany, a reply was sent to me the very same day, yet was incorrectly flagged as spam by GMail’s filter.

Nikola, thank you for clarifying the situation.

I'm not entirely sure why your initial email sent to the acoustic piano department was not immediately forwarded to the digital piano team, however I'm glad to hear that once they did receive the query, the digital guys responded promptly.

Kind regards,
James
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James, have the CA93 and CA63 been released in Japan yet? Do you know where to get any demos or sound-examples at this time?

/Andrée

No need to thank, really. It’s a normal thing to do.




I’m not sure either. Maybe they didn’t recognize model names. After all, CA63 and CA93 are digital pianos yet to be released.

Andrée, the CA93 and CA63 were officially unveiled to the public at a recent event in Tokyo. I have a Japanese magazine article covering the story that I may be able to post if there is sufficient interest.

In terms of the Japanese launch date, the CA93 is due for release on Friday (23rd October), with the CA63 due for launch on the 13th November.

I do not believe demos/sound samples have been made officially available, however I am confident that they will be accessible via the KAWAI Japan website in the near future, followed by KAWAI's overseas websites in the coming months.

Kind regards,
James
x

Kawai America/Canada indicates that they will be available "early next year" and no pricing information at this time.

James, thanks for your post. I thought both models had been released already but I was wrong. If you have the review it would be very interesting to take part of it.

/Andrée

Andrée, the article in question just covers the recent unveiling event in Tokyo. It discusses the features of the new models, but does not review them in significant detail.

Unfortunately, I do not have permission to reproduce (scan) the article and post it here. My apologies.

Kind regards,
James
x

Do we know if Kawai improved their cabinet style?
When I checked the CA91/71 some months ago, the cabinets were a major put off...
Based on below high res pic it looks better, but I guess it's hard to say until you see it with your own eyes..
http://www.kawai.co.jp/info/material/photo/2009/20090916-1-1L.jpg

altrent, yes the cabinet designs have been completely remodelled. The CA93 and CA63 are similar in appearance to the CA18, with the panel buttons moved to the left cheek block.

I personally prefer the new CA93/CA63 designs to the CA91/CA71/CA51, although that's not to say that the older instruments are necessarily ugly. I'm curious as to what aspect of these model's design you found to be unappealing.

Additional images of the new instrument can be seen on the KAWAI Japan website:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca93/gallery.html
http://www.kawai.co.jp/ep/products/ca63/gallery.html

Additional images will of course be made available in due.

Indeed, I'd be interested to hear reactions to the appearance of the new models.

Cheers,
James
x

James,

Thanks for the reply.
I recall the cabinet looking, and feeling really 'plastic' like. The key cover also had big gap on either side (> 1/4 inch) which means you could rock it from side to side.
The HP207 that I tried just before had a much more solid look and feel.

Cheers,

I've been searching on reactions to CA93, and found some interesting information from some Japanese blogs/forums. Despite my lack of understanding of Japanese sentence structure, I can pick up some factual information at least ...

http://croakcrawlers.blog7.fc2.com/blog-entry-123.html

The writer compares the lengths between the tip of the key to the pivot point among Kawai, Roland and Yamaha DPs. Kawai=19cm, Yamaha and Roland ~= 21.5cm.

The writer also commented on the position of the pedal, depth wise, relative to the front of the key panel. CA93 = 20.5cm, Yamaha CLPs ~= 25.5cm, Roland HP207 ~= 27cm, Roland RG3 (digital grand) ~= 29cm. This is related to the overall reduced depth of the CA93 compared to the other models. I have very little experience with playing on a piano (digital or acoustic) with a pedal and therefore really do not know how the key/pedal relation of the CA93 is compared to real pianos. Perhaps it's closer to uprights? How much does it affect playing?

The writer (I am guessing) complimented on the new RM3 keyboard in terms of its responsiveness to quick repeated play on the same key when talking about CA63. He (?) also compared the touch between CA63 and CA93. The escapement (available on CA93) does something to the feel of play but I cannot tell if he thought it was a positive or a negative.

I would greatly appreciate if a Japanese speaking member could translate the blog entry to be shared with all who are interested in this topic.

Thanks!

Tony

A translation would be great since the Google translator was quite bad to use

/Andrée

Gee, it's too long. Just a few points.

*RM3 inherits the unique soft (suave) touch of AWA Grand Pro II.
*The ‘let-off-feel’ is more realistic than Roland’s ‘escapement’. However, as the result of this feature, the minimum amount of strength you need to apply in order to make the key ‘sound’ is more than the acoustic piano. It also seems to reduce the capacity of repeating the same key quickly.
*The touch is the heaviest among all the DP.
*Ivory feel is similar to the Yamaha’s. The gaps between the keys have become smaller. The black keys are now indeed easier to play due to the hinder pivot point but the white keys are still shorter comparing to the Yamaha/Roland model.
*Sound is similar to CA12’s but high notes now sound milder and very piano-like.
*It is the smallest and the most stylish DP in its category. However the location of the pedals is sacrificed.
*CA63 comes without the ‘let-off-feel’ and the keys come back more quickly. As a result, the keys follow your fingers’ movement. The author was astonished by the accomplishment of this new RM3 keyboard, which he/she was not quite able to feel while playing the CA93.


By the way, I asked the KAWAI Australia and they said these two models would be available around March/April next year.

James, do you think Kawai will discontinue with the non-ivory wooden keys? If that is the case, I will buy CA18 now although CA63 looks very promising...

Thanks for the translation Gunter. CA 63 looks very promising. It's just a shame that they have only improved the distance to fulcrum for the black keys and not the white.

It's a good thing that they have reduced the gap between the keys and improved the hight notes, and especially, that they improved the key return speed.

Sieg66, the reason why Kawai has improved the distance to the fulcrum just for the black keys, is because the black keys are shorter than the white ones. If they had to increase the distance for the white as well, the keys would have to be longer. Also, the return speed of the key seems to be improved only in the CA93, are you not satisfied with the speed of return in your CA51?

/Andrée

Thanks a lot for the translation.
I have to ask you about the release of the CA93 and CA63 outside Japan, is it true that it will take until March/April?

/Andrée

Thanks Gunter for the translation. That clarifies many points that my poor Japanese could not figure out.

Yes, the CA63 looks promising. Hopefully we'll see more feedback from Japan when it becomes available Nov 13 and we'll do another round of translations

Yes Andrée, I don't know how they could have done, but it would have been nice if they had improved this for the white keys too. It could have been longer keys or not central pivot point, I don't know, but on my ca51 the keys are somewhat hard to play when played in the back.

Gunter, thank you for posting this translation. I was very interested to read the opinions of this blogger - he/she would appear to be rather knowledgeable about digital piano keyboard action and sound technology. However, I believe it's important to remember that this is the personal opinion of just one individual, and as we all know, opinions do vary.



Currently, all models that utilise the new RM3 Grand action (CA93, CA63, CP209, CP179, CP139) are equipped with Ivory Touch key surfaces.

However, it's possible that future lower priced instruments that utilise the RM3 Grand action (a successor to the CA18, for example) may adopt the standard (i.e. non-Ivory Touch) key surfaces.

[quote=Andrée]I have to ask you about the release of the CA93 and CA63 outside Japan, is it true that it will take until March/April?

This is the response from KAWAI Australia. However, given your location, I would suggest the date provided by KAWAI Europe (end of January) would be more the appropriate guide.

Kind regards,
James
x

Almost all other digital pianos use a "folding" hammer action that takes up space underneath the key instead of in front of it.

I am guessing that moving the pivot point further away from the tip of the key can result in the increase in over depth of the piano, which is the opposite of what Kawai (or what Kawai thinks customers) wants. In fact, CA93 at 48cm is slimmer than its natural competitors like CLP-380 (512mm), Roland HP-207 (529mm), despite the inclusion of the soundboard speaker system.

A cm or two seems to matter a lot!

I'm not sure of this but I think the length from the key front to the pivot point is not interesting in this case, since the different brands use different techniques. In the case of Kawai, the length between the front and the pivot point is the same as the leverage for the key. For both Yamaha and Roland the weights are located before the pivot point, which means that the length between the front and the pivot point is not the same as the leverage for the key. I'm not able to give you an answer of how big the leverage is using this technique, but I believe it must be shorter than for Kawai, probably not longer than to the place of where the hammer is connected to the key.

/Andrée

Yes, this is a good point. The pivot point for most - if not all - other manufacturers' keyboard actions is located at the back of the key, resulting in a 'lever' movement.

KAWAI's wooden key action, on the other hand, places the pivot point at the centre of the key, resulting in a more natural 'seesaw' movement - just like that of an acoustic piano.

Cheers,
James
x

A video of the CA93! Unfortunately the video can convey neither the touch nor sound of the instrument :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTIBzaqNOiQ

I think the sound is awesome, but it is very difficult to hear and perhaps the brightness in the treble part is too bright. However, it is still quite a bad recording