Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Your opinion, please! Have I bought junk?

Mark,
I have read the whole thread and here are my thoughts:

1. You did not buy from an ignorant private party. You bought from a professional piano person. This is a material fact in your favor. He had a responsibility to disclose material defects (malfeasance). He knew these defects or he was professionally neglegent (misfeasance). Either way, he should be held accountable. Professionals should be held to a higher standard than the general public in their representations.

2. A disclosure of the work you performed may or may not weaken your case. That you improved the instrument's performance will likely be immaterial to the fact that it is now in an altered state from how it was delivered.

3. Push for a complete return and refund, not repairs on this instrument. Another option might be an exchange of another instrument this seller might substitute, but only after a full survay from a third party and some kind of appraisal.

When a customer's own technician comes to my shop to check out a piano that I have for sale, he will confirm to the buyer that the piano is indeed a good value. That's what I mean that it works in my favor.

Only when the other technician is dishonest or unqualified, will the buyer be told otherwise.

There is no monetary advantage for the other technician to help me sell the piano. He/she is working for the buyer only, and not for me.

Does that answer the question?

How often haven't you techs run across this? It happens to me almost every single time.

When I am hired to go out to appraise a piano in another persons home, or whereever it is other than a dealer, the seller will almost always will ask me what I think of the piano? What is it worth? Did you find any problems? What kind of shape is it in? Isn't it a great piano? It is in good shape you know. We took good care of it etc. That makes us uncomfortable. For those of you reading, don't do it. I am there in the best interests of the client that hired me and is paying me for my time not, the person who owns the piano. We really cannot answer these questions for you.

I learned many years ago that as soon as you open up your big mouth, maybe saying something like, well, the piano needs an awful lot of work their first response is, defensive; like what???!! What kind of work? It was never played!!! It's in great shape, can't you tell?! Which leads you somewhere we do not want to go. So, for the most part, I simply refuse to answer questions for the owner of the piano. It is not in our nor our clients best interest.

"...So, for the most part, I simply refuse to answer questions for the owner of the piano. It is not in our nor our clients best interest."

A smart policy, Jerry. I wonder how the owners of the piano under inspection handle the suspense. I guess I might say something like, "It's against our professional ethics to discuss the private business of one client with another person." In view of the "Junk We Find Inside Pianos" thread, they may not realize what a good thing it is for them that tuners don't talk. Some people out there are probably wondering why their ears are hot as a stove.

I agree completely, Jerry. I have found it works best for me to be clear about the ground rules from the start; otherwise the current owners always want to talk with me about their pianos. So I start out by saying something like, "Hello, I'm glad to meet you, today I will be looking at the piano on behalf of Joe Buyer. It will take about half an hour (or whatever), and then we will leave so I can give him my report. Thank you very much for being willing to let me have a look at the piano."

At the most recent inspection, even that wouldn't have helped, and I was most grateful for Joe Buyer, who zoomed in on the seller and purposely asked things like, "So what part of Maine does your family come from?" every time I began peering intently at something with a flashlight. Thank goodness the seller was distractable.

They don't which is why the hoover over us like bandits asking all sort of questions including, am I asking a fair price or should I have asked more? To which I reply something to what you mentioned. I am hired to inspect your piano for a client and cannot divuldge that information to anyone but them, sorry.

I was asked once or twice by the owner if they also paid me, if I would tell them on the spot what the piano was really worth. I flat our refused.

Hello all,

To Marty:
I will try to push for a complete refund (less, perhaps, moving fees and some type of "usage fee" - if the seller insists on a less-than-full refund). None of the other instruments that he had in his shop, appealed to us - and even if he has obtained another instrument in the meantime, I would be very hesitant to buy from him again.

To Randy:
Yes, question answered, thanks.

To all:
On Saturday I spoke to a friend who works at the local university. Although he does not lecture music, he is very actively involved in music, and knows the music lecturers and local performers well. He'll describe my situation to one or two of them and ask their advice, specifically to recommend a reliable tuner/tech to me, so that I can get an independent appraisal.

Regards,
Mark

Dear readers,

Dan, your assessment of the crack in the bass bridge apron prompted me to do some further thinking and enquiring. With the help of a tech from the German-Austrian piano forum, I’ve done some further measurements. What the Austrian tech described, is called “Saitendruck” (string pressure). It measures whether the bridge (actually, the soundboard) lifts the strings further away from the soundboard than what they are at the hitch pins (he compared it, in principle, to the bridge of a violin, which lifts the string from a straight line into its well-known shape).

Hence, what I did: I connected a piece of fishing line to the upper pin (agraffe pin?) of a string, guided it through the pins in the bass bridge, pulled it taught close to the hitch pin of the string, lowered the fishing line on to the bridge, and compared the height of the bridge to the height of the lower end of the string on the hitch-pin. I did this at the extreme low end, extreme high end, and close to the middle of the bass bridge. Well, Dan, it’s no wonder that the apron is starting to crack. At the low end, the “Saitendruck” is about 1 to 2 mm. In the middle, close to the crack in the apron, it’s closer to 3 mm. And at the top end, it’s actually negative! My fishing line actually stands clear of the bridge, by about 1 to 2 mm.

To top it all, there’s an inscription on the lower side of the bass bridge: “4.11.69 Rep.” – Rep probably stands for “Reparatur”, i.e. repair. This probably means that the bass bridge was already replaced 40 years ago, which would also explain the brass plaque of the 1960’s instrument dealer / tech that’s attached to the frame in the bass string section. So, the instrument is 87 years old, but it appears the half-dead bass bridge actually is only 40 years old. I would guess that the bridge was replaced, but the root cause of the problem (bridge sagging on its high end) has not been addressed.

What a learning curve! (At a price, but I’ll try to sort that out in due course.)

Again, my special thanks to Dan in Canada.

Methinks whenever I go to purchase a piano in future, I’ll take along a flashlight and some fishing line...

Regards,
Mark

Hello again,

For those interested, I've uploaded the corresponding photos into my picasa album (the last five pictures are new). The album is now public, so anyone should be able to comment, should he/she wish.

Effectively, the difference in "Saitendruck" (string pressure / string height?) between the mid-section and the high end of the bass bridge is about 4 to 5 mm, as I judge it. The high end is actually pulling the strings towards the rear of the piano.

Regards,
Mark

Mark, what exactly do you type in the 'search' box on picasa to find your photos?

(you could maybe include a link?).

Also, in the UK, what you refer to as "saitendruck" is known as 'Down-bearing'.

(I don't know if it's got a different name in the US).

.

Hi John,

In the first post of this thread, the album was linked (within the text). But in the meantime, I've changed the album from "authorisation-keyed" to "public", so that anyone can comment on the pictures, not only those with google or picasa accounts.

My apologies for not posting the public link in my post above - so, here it is:
Click here for the Seiler pictures.

[EDIT: hovering over a picture should display the caption, if all goes well.]
[EDIT 2: it seems that even in a public album, one has to sign in to leave a comment. Sorry about that - if you don't have a picasa account please comment in this thread.]

Kind regards across the Atlantic,
Mark
P.S.: thanks for the translation. Down-bearing makes perfect sense, once you know the term.

'
Hi there Mark, thanks for posting that link.

I've now had chance to look at your photos, and I would have to say that,

unfortunately, I'm in agreement with most of the 'negative' comments previously mentioned.

Judging from the pictures, this piano reminds me of many that I've encountered over the years,

and, from exeperience, my opinion is that not only was it hugely overpriced, but, in reality,

is probably worth nothing at all.

It's in the sort of condition that you see people giving away to folks who can't afford to

fork out for a piano (hard-up community centres/church halls etc).


For starters, the action obviously wasn't even 'dusted-down', let alone regulated.

You can see this from the mis-alignment of the dampers/ uneven key 'levelling' etc etc.....

the list goes on.

The biggest problems are with the bridge and soundboard, though - and the pinblock could

also be a worry..... it's not easy to say for sure whether that's split/cracked, because

it has a (what looks like) walnut veneer covering the actual block.

With a change in temperature/humidity, these splits could literally 'go' at any given minute.

If (or, rather when) that happens, the piano will become an instant write-off.

I also hate to say it, but -for the purposes of the guarantee- you should probably not have

got involved with 'home repairs' - although I agree that ANYTHING you may have done to

the action will have had NO effect on the condition of the soundboard/bridge.


I really feel for you here, and wish you all the best of luck getting this sorted out.


Please keep us informed how you go on? - and leave the piano as it is for now!

Regards,

John.
.

Dear all,

To Randy, Jeff and RPD, I have some more feedback, as concerns working through/with "professionals" and choosing the right "professional" for an independent appraisal.

In search of an independent tech who could provide me with an assessment of the damage, I contacted a member of the South African Association of Professional Piano Tuners - I presume he is the chairman, as he was obviously strongly involved in the design and content of the Association's website. Let's call him Charles.

It was an "interesting" phone conversation, to say the least.

First off, when I told Charles my story, he started chiding (frankly: lecturing) me, as to why I should have worked through the Association. In his words, Association members automatically get the green light as trustworthy sellers and competent techs - and I suppose non-members get the red light? It took two or three attempts to explain to him that I actually hadn't bought from some backyard dealer or fly-by-nighter. When I gave some background and he finally inferred who I was talking about, only then did he back off, and said that the tech who sold me the piano does, in fact, have a good reputation and much experience. (Fancy that!) For reasons only known to himself, he declined to join the Association when he was offered membership. (Perhaps all is not rosy in the Association?)

Charles said that, given my tech's good reputation and experience, this instrument should never have been sold in this condition. He suspects that the tech, who is getting on in years, neglected to give it a proper inspection.

So far so good.

I then asked Charles for the names of one or two Association members who could appraise my piano. Lo and behold, the first name that he gave me, is a tuner who has himself worked on my piano previously (left his insignia on a key), and whom I have been warned against,
... by a well-known local accompanist,
... by my seller himself, and most recently,
... by a piano professor from the local university, who said that this tech is blind, which limits his ability to appraise and repair structural damage. (Notwithstanding his excellent tuning abilities.)

So, this serves to illustrate my predicament. All of these people are, to some extent, professionals, even the non-member tech who sold me the piano, is acknowledged within the Association as competent.

In summary:
1) First Charles lectures me for not working through the Association.
2) Only when Charles realises who the seller is, does he change his tune (excuse the pun).
3) Then, Charles recommends one of his colleagues, but I've already been warned by various people not to use this tech!

I wonder whether the Association, like Charles put it, is really there to protect the consumer?

To add to my confusion, Charles said that a sticky action (centre pins) is no big deal, they must just be lubricated. (While the Austrian tech says that this is nonsense, the only way to fix it properly is to clean/ream the bushes and re-pin.) When I asked him about oil going sticky in due course, he said that he uses silicone lubricant, which doesn't "draw dust".

The one says "do", the other says "don't", the one says "use this tech", the other says "don't"...

Can you start to understand my massive confusion and frustration?

Abovementioned piano professor has now kindly put me in touch with a Steinway tech who services the university's concert grands - based in Cape Town, but currently here in Pretoria. I'll try to arrange that he appraises my piano.

Regards (with a reeling head),
Mark

Dear all,

Said Steinway tech visited me today and had a look at the piano. By the way, he studied not only at Steinway Hamburg, but also in the states, and is a RPT.

I'll get a written report later, but in the meantime, his impressions were as follows:

1) The crack in the soundboard is obviously not good, but not really critical, as it ends before the first rib and that rib is still firmly glued to the board. If it starts to buzz, one could fill/stabilise it with epoxy.
2) The cracks in the bass bridge are bad. The sound is slowly starting to deteriorate because of them. The bridge should be re-capped.
3) The action is not regulated well, hammers are misaligned.
4) The hammers have been re-felted before. He recognises the workmanship of a certain tech (and also the machine with which it was done). In the process, the heads were not made long enough, so in order to keep the rise (is this the right expression?) correct, the cushion of the hammer rest was made thicker. This means that the fulcrum of the hammers is to far away from the strings. The shanks are angled to steeply - hence the fact that some hammers actually fall towards the strings when played softly.
5) The action is sticky and should receive new centre-pins.
6) Damping is "patchwork". Some have been renewed, most are stained, some bent. Some dampers hardly lift off the string.
7) Down-bearing is not such a critical problem according to him. More so if it becomes too large, because this could break the bass bridge or apron completely away from the soundboard. As long as the soundboard has settled into a stable form (which it has, according to him), and the sound is still good, especially at the breaks (which it is), then this is OK.
8 ) The bushings (correct word?) of the keys should be replaced.
9) The general sound is good and solid. He sees no problems here.
10) General impression: the outside has been nicely restored, the inside is (I quote) "shoddy workmanship from top to bottom".
11) He said that if I can reverse the deal, I should. If not, I should insist that the above items (especially bass bridge and action) are repaired to the satisfaction of an independent tech.

He took almost an hour's time to look at various items with me and answer my questions, also pertaining to the fact that practically all tuners in Pretoria are blind...

What a shame that he is based in Cape Town. But he is in Pretoria regularly to work on the university's concert grands.

Then came a slight sales pitch. He has an August Förster (about 50 years old) in his workshop, that he has restored. Well, perhaps I can have a look if I'm in Cape Town over Christmas...

So much for today - now I'll have to gather my wits about me and confront my seller.

Kind regards,
Mark

Good luck, Mark. What a horrible situation. I hope you are able to get your money back. Let us know how the conversation went.

Hello Mark,

Just back in here, and have read through your recent postings. I can see that you have learned the wisdom of going out of your local area to gather opinions about this instrument; an instrument that was presented to you with the claim that it was in good condition, both inside and out.

Every tech that views the pictures, or inspects the instrument, will have slightly differing viewpoint on certain components of this instrument. What you need to do is sift through the information now and find the “common points” shared by more than one opinion you have received. When you have a variety of techs from different locations sharing a common view of certain repairs or deterioration, this will go a long way to bolster your claim.

As far as the sales pitch goes, I too would offer you an instrument in better condition. The motivation for this would be primarily to assist in correcting a bad situation, but secondly to make a sale too….;)

The fellow who offered you the Forster? Call him back and ask him what he would give you in trade for the one you have now. That will get you closer to the real value of what you have (the real value for your area is what I meant)

cheers,

Hi there,

Monica, thanks for the support.

Dan, for a starting point, the Steinway tech actually asked me what I paid for the Ed Seiler, and said that had the instrument been in an acceptable condition, this would be a fair price - actually quite a good one.

What you're suggesting is a roundabout way to find out the real value of my piano in its current (more or less desolate) condition?

Well, that should be easy enough - when he calls me to get my e-mail address for sending me the written report, I'll slip in the "trade-in value" question - let's see what he says!

Oh boy, I really need to sort this out, it's making me physically sick (my nerves always work on my guts - literally).

Anyway, time for the weekend (it's 17h45 here).

Cheers,
Mark
P.S.: Dan (and everyone): just like Kawais are often said to have quite a bright timbre, and Bösendorfer more softly-singing, are August Försters known for any specific tonal qualities?

Dear all,

Just a matter of clarification:

If a bridge is re-capped, and the soundboard has settled over the years (but is essentially stable), is the new bridge (cap) made and adjusted in such a way that the down-bearing is corrected, without altering the soundboard? To what specification is the down-bearing then typically set? If I understood the tech (who inspected my piano) correctly, he would rout the old cap off, but leave the base and apron on the soundboard, then make a new cap that has a suitable profile to set the down-bearing to about 1-2 mm (about 1/16 inch).

I just want to clarify this point, in case the seller of my piano should insist on repairing it, rather than taking it back.

Regards,
Mark

[quote=Mark R.]...the Steinway tech actually asked me what I paid for the Ed Seiler,

and said that had the instrument been in an acceptable condition,

this would be a fair price - actually quite a good one.[quote]


Mark, I suspect the reason he said this is because it would probably cost this or more

to carry out the neccessary work.

Did he say what he would charge you for this work? (if it were practical for him to do it).

If not, why not ask him?

Good luck.
.

Hello Mark,

From what I have seen the instrument does not have the kind of value you paid for it. For $2500.00 you can do better……… Oh sure if all of the repairs noted were done that price would be a good deal as your Steinway tech mentioned. The trouble with that statement is this:

Setting aside the condition of the sounding board for a moment, to complete all of the work I have seen on those photos, the broken bass apron and bridge cap,( might as well put a new bass string set on, why keep the old ones) the complete regulation required and all of the center pins replaced in the hammer butt flange, the whippen flange, and perhaps some of the jack flanges too( you might as well do them all as the action is now apart) removing the hammer set and calculating the correct bore distance,( you might as well install a new set)….from my shop a conservative estimate would add another 4K to the instruments’ price.

Then STILL you are left with a deteriorating sounding board that is beginning to break behind the treble bridge end. So why spend 4K or more on an instrument that has a structure in this condition? This is parallel to having a sports car that blows considerable smoke when you start it up. Well you don’t rebuild the transmission in that one, nor do you paint the thing, because one day the motor will blow up and then you are left with a car that doesn’t run with a brand new tranny installed. What value would it be then?

Don’t get me wrong here, this instrument you have can still be played for a long time in this condition, but with a sound board like that you do not pour dollar after dollar into this project. Find another instrument that does not have a breaking sounding board and put monies into that one.

Because of the condition of the sounding board and bridge, this instrument has limited value……. you play this instrument “as it is”. There are LOTS of pianos around this area with bridges and sound boards in this condition. I tell people to play them like they are until the instrument is not functional any longer and then look for something else. I do let pianos like this go to certain people….single mom, single dad, no money, but with children who want to learn music…I let them go for a few hundred dollars……sometimes even nothing…………………just enough to cover the moving costs and a quick look to see that everything works…. BUT they are informed that these pianos are NOT GOOD INSTRUMENTS and this is written on the invoice if there happens to be one……. I just donated one to a church that needed one for the missionary work done there……..

Don’t know too much about the August Förster instruments, they were an 80’s and 90’s thing around here…Czech Republic, or Poland I believe, but not sure. I haven’t heard many complaints about them so that is a good thing I guess. Maybe someone else has another opinion or more complete info on that one.
cheers,