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Aloha everyone! Ok, I played the clarinet for 3 years in middle school, the piano for about a month at home, the recorder for a year in elementary, and the French horn/mellophone for about two years in high school. I haven't played ANY instrument for about 7 years. Currently, I own a keyboard, clarinet, ukulele, acoustic guitar, bandurria, and a recorder. I have consistently been told that if you can play the piano well, you can play ANY instrument well also. Therefore, my plan is to get the best and most solid foundation in the piano before restarting playing instruments again. So, what do I know? I know about some scales (clarinet) since I played that instrument the longest. I can read music (treble clef). But what I want is to have the foundational knowledge to be able to pick up not only the 6 instruments that I own but to be able to pick up any instrument that I come across and apply that foundational knowledge to it and be able to play it well. And when I say play it well, I mean being able to: - read ANY kind of sheet music that I might encounter - play jazz - be able to play songs I hear by ear (i.e. on the radio, in church, etc.) - be able to play with songs already in progress (i.e. at church, with friends, etc.) So, I could purchase individual books for each instrument but that would be very expensive AND unnecessary. Correct me if I am wrong but the foundation for all instruments is the same hence why I am always told that playing the piano well equals being able to play any instrument well. If you ask me to guess as to what are the essentials then my answer would be -> scales, arpeggios, and chords but of course that is only a guess. I'm sure there are more than that but that's why I am inquiring here. I am hoping that someone will write, " you need to be able to do/play/understand this, this, and this well. then you will be able to tackle whatever you encounter with practice" I chose the piano since there are tons of free material online to learn the piano so the experts here write the things that need to be mastered then I can take that info and practice it everyday until I master it one the piano and then repeat that same process with the same materials on each instrument that I have. I hope I am correct in what I have written here but if I have misunderstood something please clarify. Thanks and I can't wait to start learning and practicing as soon as possible!! Mahalo!! Tony Edit: hmmm, I'm not sure if this is needed but I have a strong urge to explain my background a bit for those wondering why I approach music this way. Although I started playing music first, I have been a translator longer. (6 years) I speak 8 languages very well. I have learned them all except English, which is my native language. I use the same approach I wrote about above when I learn languages. I focus solely on grammar and master that then I let everything else sink in as I use the grammar daily. I feel that grammar is the key in learning languages just like I'm looking for the key for music (instruments). Ok, I just thought I would put that out there. ^^
Last edited by kman1; 09/23/09 10:46 PM.
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For what it's worth, I think that being able to play the piano well -- even very well -- won't give you all that much help with non-keyboard instruments. It will probably improve your music notation reading skills, but music reading is a relatively small part of what is needed to master brass and woodwind instruments.
And when it comes to your list of goals, including:
``- read ANY kind of sheet music that I might encounter''
I'd say you've set yourself a very high standard even for one instrument, let alone six.
Just my $0.02, of course. Other people may have different views on this.
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Piano is probably the best instrument for developing reading skills and learning music theory such as chords, chord voicing and scales. This is because the keyboard is laid out such that you can visualize how the notes relate to each other.
And the knowledge (music theory)is transferable to other instruments but the physical skills will have to be learned separately on each instrument.
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Welcome to the forum, kman1. We have another translator who's active on the forums, too. (keystring) My own take is that music notation and theory is the "grammar" of music, so that would be my advice of where to focus. Being able to read notation and understand time signatures and rhythms will help you with any instrument. I noticed this while helping my kids learn the flute and violin. To this day I can't produce anything but a sickly squawk on my daughter's flute, but I've been able to help her solve tricky rhythm problems and the like. Chords will be helpful mainly for those instruments that allow you to play more than one note at a time, which rules a lot of them out.
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I have consistently been told that if you can play the piano well, you can play ANY instrument well also. I'm guessing the idea here is that with piano you can have separate rhythms in each hand; both treble and bass clef; up to 10 notes sounding at once; etc, so the musical complexity is (can be) much higher than pretty much any other instrument. On the other hand, there is a difference between knowing what to play (general musical knowledge) and how to play (specific instrument). The "how to play" would cover where to find each note as well as the mechanics of playing (fine motor skills, muscle memory, posture, breathing, etc), which can't really be gained without just actually putting in practice time on that instrument (although some of these can translate as well, depending on the instruments).
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My own take is that music notation and theory is the "grammar" of music, so that would be my advice of where to focus. What are the hardest/most important things/concepts specifically I should focus on? If you were to ask me the same thing about learning Korean, I'd say focus on the #1. verb infix structure and #2. keep in mind how verbs change a bit when grammatical particles are added. That's it. Of course you won't be fluent in Korean with that knowledge but if you have mastered those 2 points then everything else will fall in place with time rather easily. This is what I'm wondering about here with the piano. You are correct that I will have to put in the physical work with each instrument but that is the part that I think will come with time. (dexterity, embouchure, breathing, speed, etc.) Whether it be beginner, intermediate, or advanced, what are the most important things/concepts I need master? I tend to emphasize this because when I have the list of musical things/concepts that I need to master then I will look for them on the internet, go to my keyboard, and practice on mastering them. I have quite a lot of time on my hands lately so I can practice everyday for at least 4-5 hours. I am excited and ready to get to work. Maybe I can make some videos of my progress.
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I'm a beginner on piano but came to it after a few years of messing around with woodwinds, so I know a bit about what translates well between instruments. My suggestions would be:
Spend some time concentrating on learning to read rhythms, just by themselves. You will need to learn different note-reading skills for each instrument, but learning to read rhythms is half the battle of reading music, and it remains the same no matter what instrument you play. There are lots of rhythm reading books and they all seem to concentrate on different aspects of the process -- I'd suggest trying a few from your local library,
Learn your scales and arpeggios and cadences. Music is built from these. Know them well enough that you can find them on the keyboard without looking, well enough that they jump out at you when you see a page of music.
Learn to recognize the individual notes of the diatonic scale, i.e. the tonic, dominant, mediant, sub-dominant, sub-mediant etc. Learn to know/hear when you're playing each of these. When you know a melody in terms of how it moves through the notes of the diatonic scale, you can play it in any key, or on any instrument.
Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
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It's all about posture. If you have excellent posture you can learn play any instrument with ease.
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Tony Edit: hmmm, I'm not sure if this is needed but I have a strong urge to explain my background a bit for those wondering why I approach music this way. Although I started playing music first, I have been a translator longer. (6 years) I speak 8 languages very well. I have learned them all except English, which is my native language. I use the same approach I wrote about above when I learn languages. I focus solely on grammar and master that then I let everything else sink in as I use the grammar daily. I feel that grammar is the key in learning languages just like I'm looking for the key for music (instruments). Ok, I just thought I would put that out there. ^^ Salut ! Le français fait partie des 8 langues je suppose ? Nous aurons donc peut-être l'occasion de discuter en français, qui est ma langue maternelle.
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Salut ! Le français fait partie des 8 langues je suppose ? Nous aurons donc peut-être l'occasion de discuter en français, qui est ma langue maternelle. [/quote]
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Salut ! Le français fait partie des 8 langues je suppose ? Nous aurons donc peut-être l'occasion de discuter en français, qui est ma langue maternelle. [/quote] Et moi....
Behind every successful woman is some twit who's lost the remote....
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Salut ! Le français fait partie des 8 langues je suppose ? Nous aurons donc peut-être l'occasion de discuter en français, qui est ma langue maternelle.
Et moi.... Moi aussi, je parle français, avec un charmant accent: Peut être il y a un peu de pour moi aussi !
Last edited by landorrano; 09/24/09 05:50 PM.
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Salut ! Le français fait partie des 8 langues je suppose ? Nous aurons donc peut-être l'occasion de discuter en français, qui est ma langue maternelle. Si vous discuter en francais, discuter en topic sil vous plait - pardon my French!
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en fait, je peux parler un peu francais mais ne c'est qu'une des huit langue que je parle. Asian languages are my specialty.
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Si vous discuter en francais, discuter en topic sil vous plait - pardon my French! OK Sir, good idea... But excepting for the idea itself to write something in French, I have no subject right know. So, good idea for the future. Bonne journée !
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So you translate "I speak [8 languages] very well" by "je peux parler un peu [français]" ...?
"very well" should actually be translated in "très bien", not "un peu"... except if you speak French only a little.
Anyway, let's return to the piano !
Amicalement
Alain
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So you translate "I speak [8 languages] very well" by "je peux parler un peu [français]" ...?
"very well" should actually be translated in "très bien", not "un peu"... except if you speak French only a little.
Anyway, let's return to the piano !
Amicalement
Alain en fait, je peux parler un peu francais mais ne c'est qu'une des huit langue que je parle. Asian languages are my specialty.'
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.... Asian languages are my specialty. 日本語もã§ãã¾ã™ã‹ï¼Ÿ Nihongo mo dekimasuka? I must say your approach to learning languages and music seems very unconventional. It's also contrary to my own experience learning more than 2 languages at once. I felt it was counterproductive because the brain keeps on switching between 2 new things at once, and I found out I can only really concentrate on one or the other. Maybe it would've been easier if the languages I studied at that time were closely related (Romance languages, for example) but they weren't. But I think that as with learning an instrument, mastery of a language depends on how much practice you put into it so I'm wondering how you plan to put in all the practice time necessary to be proficient in multiple instruments. Or how did you do it for the other languages you studied simultaneously? And when do you reach a high level of proficiency, how do you retain it? To my horror, I ended up stuttering and forgetting basic words in my mother tongue after I lived in another country for a year due to not having had to use it as often I really want to know because I like learning languages and there are a few languages in my 'must-learn' list with Korean and Italian at the top XD By the way, I'm an interpreter/translator too
Last edited by marimorimo; 09/25/09 10:27 AM.
Working on: Schumann Album for the Young, Clementi Op 36 No. 1 (all movements), Various Bach, Czerny 599 + CASIO PX-720 and PX-730 +
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Learn your scales and arpeggios and cadences. Music is built from these. Know them well enough that you can find them on the keyboard without looking, well enough that they jump out at you when you see a page of music. Ok, I have just finished compiling a list of #1. all the piano chords AND #2. all the piano scales in the key of C. I know that I need to do this for all 12 keys but I just want to make sure that this list is exactly what I need to know before I finish the rest. I’m not sure if this is too much, just right, or not enough. Please instruct. Scales: Major (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C), Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C), Harmonic Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,G#,B,C), Melodic Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C), Pentatonic Major (C,D,F,G,A,C), Pentatonic Minor (C,Eb,F,G,A#,C), Pentatonic Blues (C,Eb,F,F#,G,A#), Pentatonic Neutral (C,D,F,G,A#), Ionian (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C), Aeolian (C,Eb,F,F#,G#,A#,B,C#,Eb), Dorian (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,A#,C), Mixolydian (C,D,E,F,G,A,A#,C), Phrygian (C,C#,Eb,F,G,G#,A#,C), Lydian (C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C), Locrian (C,C#,Eb,F,F#,G#,A#,C), Dim half (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G,A,A#), Dim whole (C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B), Whole (C,D,E,F#,G#,A#), Augmented (C,Eb,E,G,G#,B), Chromatic (C,C#,D,Eb,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B,C), Roumanian Minor (C,D,Eb,F#,G,A,A#,C), Spanish Gypsy (C,C#,E,F,G,G#,A#,C), Blues (C,Eb,F,F#,G,A#,C), Diatonic (C,D,E,G,A,C), Double Harmonic (C,C#,E,F,G,G#,B,C), Eight Tone Spanish (C,C#,Eb,E,F,F#,G#,A#,C), Enigmatic (C,C#,E,F#,G#,A#,B,C), Leading Whole Tone (C,D,E,F#,G#,A,A#), Lydian Augmented (C,D,E,F#,G#,A,B,C), Neoploitan Major (C,C#,Eb,F,G,A,B,C), Neopolitan Minor (C,C#,Eb,F,G,G#,A#,C), Pelog (C,C#,Eb,F#,A#,B), Prometheus (C,D,E,F#,A,A#,C), Prometheus Neopolitan (C,C#,E,F#,A,A#,C), Six Tone Symmetrical (C,C#,E,F,G#,A,C), Super Locrian (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G#,A#,C), Lydian Minor (C,D,E,F#,G,G#,A#,C), Lydian Diminished (C,D,Eb,F#,G,G#,A#,C), Nine Tone Scale (C,D,Eb,E,F#,G,G#,A,B,C), Auxiliary Diminished (C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C), Auxiliary Augmented (C,D,E,F#,G#,A#,C), Auxiliary Diminished Blues (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G,A,A#,C), Major Locrian (C,D,E,F,F#,G#,A#,C), Overtone (C,D,E,F#,G,A,A#,C), Diminished Whole Tone (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G#,A#,C), Pure Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,G#,A#,C), Dominant 7th (C,D,F,G,A,A#,C) Arpeggios: Ok, I think arpeggios are just playing the notes of a chord individually instead of together at one time. so I don’t need any big lists need to be made here, I just need to remember this principle. right? Chords: for chords, I have listed all the chords and beside each of the chords I wrote the principle behind them. I’m not sure if it is all correct but I tried. I have put in bold the chords that I think I have to memorize. As for the other chords, I believe I should be able to figure them out by their name after I have memorized the chords in bold well. I just need to remember the rule and apply it to each chord in every key instead of memorizing the notes. right? Major (C,E,G) , basic Minor (C,Eb,G), lower the 3rd 1/2 step 5th (C,G), remove the 3rd Dominant 7th (C,E,G,A#), up 1 ½ from 5th Major 7th (C,E,G,B), up 2 tones from 5thMinor 7th (C,Eb,G,A#), minor + dominant 7th Minor Major 7th (C,Eb,G,B), minor + major 7th Sus4 (C,F,G), raise the 3rd ½ step (1 semitone) Sus2 (C,D,G), lower the 3rd 1 step 6th (C,E,G,A), raise 5th 1 step (tone) Minor 6 (C,Eb,G,A), minor + 6th 9th (C,E,G,A#), same as dominant 7th Minor 9 (C,Eb,G,A#), same as minor 7th Major 9 (C,E,G,B), same as major 7th Minor Major 9 (C,Eb,G,B,D), minor + major 9 + 1 ½ step up from 7th note 11th (C,E,G,A#,D,F), 9th/7th + raise 2 tones from 7th + raise 1 ½ step from 9th Minor 11th (C,Eb,G,A#,D,F), name* Major 11th (C,E,G,B,D,F), name* Minor Major 11th (C,Eb,G,B,D,F), name* 13th (C,E,G,A#,D,A), 9th/7th + raise 2 tones from 7th + raise 7 stepsMinor 13 (C,Eb,G,A#,D,A), name* Major 13 (C,E,G,B,D,A), name* Minor Major 13 (C,Eb,G,B,D,A), name* add 9 (C,E,G,D), raise the 5th 7 steps Minor add 9 (C,Eb,G,D), name* 6 add 9 (C,E,G,A,D), name* Minor 6 add 9 (C,Eb,G,A,D), name* Dominant 7th add 11 (C,E,G,A#,F), dominant 7 + raise 7th 7 steps Major 7th add 11 (C,E,G,B,F), name* Minor 7th add 11 (C,Eb,G,A#,F), name* Minor Major 7th add 11 (C,Eb,G,B,F), name* Dominant 7th add 13 (C,E,G,A#,A), dominant 7 + raise 7th 11 steps Major 7th add 13 (C,E,G,B,A), name* Minor 7th add 13 (C,Eb,G,A#,A), name* Minor Major 7th add 13 (C,Eb,G,B,A), name* 7b5 (C,E,F#,A#), dominant 7th w/ the 5th lowered one semitone 7#5 (C,E,G#,A#), dominant 7th w/ the 5th raised one semitone 7b9 (C,E,G,A#,C#), dominant 7th + raise 7th 3 steps 7#9 (C,E,G,A#,Eb), dominant 7th + raise 7th 5 steps7#5b9 (C,E,G#,A#,C#), name* m7b5 (C,Eb,F#,A#), name* (‘m’ here means ‘minor’) m7#5 (C,Eb,G#,A#), name* m7b9 (C,Eb,G,A#,C#), name* 9#11 (C,E,G,A#,D,F#), same as 11th but raise the last note 1 semitone 9b13 (C,E,G,A#,D,G#), same as 13th but lower the last note 1 semitone 6sus4 (C,F,G,A), sus4 + raise the 5th one tone 7sus4 (C,F,G,A#), sus4 + raise the 5th 1 ½ step Major 7th Sus4 (C,F,G,B), sus4 + raise the 5th two tone 9sus4 (C,F,G,A#,D), 7sus4 + raise the 7th two tones Major 9 Sus4 (C,F,G,B,D) major 7th sus4 + raise the 7th three tones Cadences: I’m not sure about cadences but I having been reading about them on some music sites so here is my take on it. A cadence is a two-chord progression that occurs at the end of a phrase. I’m not really sure how to practice this. I have been doing searches on Google for “piano cadence charts†and I don’t see anything really. So, maybe I should just memorize this: Authentic (also closed or standard) cadence: V to I (or IV - V - I). The phrase perfect cadence is sometimes used as a synonym for authentic cadence, but can also have a more precise meaning depending on the chord voicing: • Perfect authentic cadence (PAC): The chords are in root position; that is, the roots of both chords are in the bass, and the tonic (the same pitch as root of the final chord) is in the highest voice of the final chord. A PAC is a progression from V to I in major keys, and V to i in minor keys. • Imperfect authentic cadence (IAC), best divided into three separate categories: o 1. Root position IAC: similar to a PAC, but the highest voice is not the tonic ("do" or the root of the tonic chord). o 2. Inverted IAC: similar to a PAC, but one or both chords must be inverted. o 3. Leading tone IAC: the V chord is replaced with the viio/subV chord (but the cadence still ends on I). • Half (or open, or imperfect) cadence: any cadence ending on V, whether preceded by V of V, ii, IV, or I, or any other chord. • Phrygian half cadence: a half cadence from IVⶠto V in minor • Plagal cadence: phrase ends with IV (or iv) going to I (or i), • Deceptive (or interrupted, or surprise) cadence: V to any chord other than I (typically ii, vi or VI). Spend some time concentrating on learning to read rhythms, just by themselves. I’m not sure how to do this. Nothing is popping up in Google when I search for rhythm charts. .....? Learn to recognize the individual notes of the diatonic scale, i.e. the tonic, dominant, mediant, sub-dominant, sub-mediant etc. I should be able to do this after I finish learning the Scales I have written above. But I think that as with learning an instrument, mastery of a language depends on how much practice you put into it so I'm wondering how you plan to put in all the practice time necessary to be proficient in multiple instruments. I don’t expect to be able to play any of the instruments well at all at least until after a couple of years. I don’t even play the clarinet that well and I played that for three years. As I stated earlier, I haven’t play any instrument for the last almost seven years and the reason I have decided to return to playing music is because I really loved playing music when I did it and more importantly my success in learning languages. I feel that my approach will work also with music. It took me a long time to be able to speak all those languages well but the good thing is that I was not in any pain mentally when I was learning them. This is because I took care of all the hardest areas for me up front. Everything else just came with time and I learned the languages with great enjoyment. Yes, my approach is very unconventional and my colleagues always exhort me to follow more traditional approaches. I don’t advise you to follow my path but rather do what works for you. That’s the key. Or how did you do it for the other languages you studied simultaneously? And when do you reach a high level of proficiency, how do you retain it? I never stated that I studied them all at one time but only that I did in fact put in the time to study them each. I said that for those who feel uneasy about my approach and my purpose was to show them that my method has worked for me so far. Also, ã¯ã„ã€æ—¥æœ¬èªžã¯ã§ãã¾ã™ã€‚ãã†ã—ã¦ã€ã‚ãªãŸã®éŸ“国語ã®å‹‰å¼·ã«æ‰‹ä¼ã„ã—ã¾ã—ょ。ã„ã¤ã§ã‚‚ã€æ•™ãˆã¦ã.
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OT: I spoke Japanese fluently when I was 2 to 4 (bilingual) and then French from 8-14. We lived in those countries.
Learning a language at an early age creates neural pathways that can never be acquired after a certain age and it makes it easier for the learner to acquire any language.
So people who are fluent at an early age often can speak more than 2 languages. If I had time I would relearn Japanese and learn German well.
Anyway, I believe that living in foreign countries and having to focus on language, acquiring the skill to be bilingual, gave me me a very good ear that has helped me in learning music.
I wonder if the brain center for music and language are shared...
A friend of mine who was a PhD in French and a college professor told me that the most intelligent students in college are language majors and music majors.
Fascinating, n'est pas? Anyway, as written in "Why Can't The English Teach Their Children How to Speak?" from My Fair Lady, the French don't really care what you say as long as it you say it well.
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