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#1277046 - 09/29/09 03:15 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
In fairness, the third estate has long violated this notion.

The following is an image of war that anyone of a certain age will recognize instantly:




Yet I doubt that MA's posting of these videos rises to a freedom of the press issue or to a public right to know issue. Hence the common sense critique still holds.


Why not? Because the ends justify the means?

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#1277049 - 09/29/09 03:24 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
GYABEAUX Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 133
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: iampiano
Do you feel OK if this happens to your daughter without your knowledge?


I thought I already said yes. In fact, I'd be proud and thank the person for doing it.


You in particular may be fine with it but not everybody would be; there is no reason to assume everyone thinks like you do. You have no idea exactly what each performer in those videos and their parents think unless you've directly spoken with them about making such a thread in a popular, public piano forum.

Let's think of the possibilities: do you feel OK if your child is being ridiculed on the net without your knowledge? That random strangers say she didn't deserve what she got because of the judges, not due to her performance? If the videos were linked elsewhere, do you feel OK if your daughter is praised by people who refer to girls as "lolis"? Do you feel OK if your child finds out that he or she is being put on the spot online? These are just a few of many other concerns parents may have - parents who don't think exactly like you do.

This isn't limited to children's performances. I'd be pretty upset if these were videos of me taken without permission. It can make a solid court case of copyright infringement and invasion of privacy where I am. Eager prosecutors might even throw in charges along the lines of exploiting children.

MA, I get the feeling from your original post that you're not happy with the judges' decisions but asking people to judge the kids, possibly without proper permissions, can get you into serious trouble. Even if you receive responses in favor of the performer(s) you're rooting for, I don't believe the child(ren) would be happy about "justice" being served in this manner on a public forum. Peace.
_________________________
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Chopin - Nocturne in C#m
Debussy - La fille aux cheveux de lin
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Chopin - 25-1 Aeolian Harp

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#1277094 - 09/29/09 06:13 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
We live in an odd world, and I think we have increasingly to accept that there is no longer such a thing as privacy. I'm not saying that's necessarily good -- although I believe in some senses it is -- but it's my observation. Governments respond to the increasing loss of privacy driven by technology by enacting a heap of hodge-podge, ill-considered legislation. Institutions respond mainly as Kreisler has done -- by banning all forms of photography (which, in the UK at least, they're entitled to do on their own land, at least for now). But it seems that technology is abolishing privacy faster than society can deal with it.

Anyway, it seems to me that there are enough parents who are unhappy about images of their kids being circulated -- for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly -- that I'd be reluctant to do so without their approval. For me, it seems a matter of courtesy more than one of ethics.

Also, in the UK at least, publishing a video of a person's piano performance, without permission, on a public web site would most definitely amount to a breach of that person's intellectual property rights and is a criminal offence. Again, that's an observation rather than a statement of approval on my part smirk

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#1277109 - 09/29/09 07:06 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.


Edited by Piano*Dad (09/29/09 07:07 AM)
_________________________
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#1277275 - 09/29/09 12:32 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
C.Y. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
They are all winners in my book. MA, if your kid is one of those girls, you should be proud of her. Why cares about the ranking by the judges?

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#1277282 - 09/29/09 12:39 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mrs.A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 155
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


You go Piano Dad. We rarely see you get your dander up. You usually the voice of reason and the peace maker here.!

My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.
_________________________
Piano Teacher.
Church Music Director.
Kindermusik Instructor.
Mom to four boys.


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#1277287 - 09/29/09 12:48 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Mrs.A]
Mrs.A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 155
Originally Posted By: Mrs.A
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


You go Piano Dad. We rarely see you get your dander up. You usually the voice of reason and the peace maker here.!

My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.


That was strange, my statement didn't print in the above post.

You go Piano Dad. Rarely do we see you get your dander up. You are usually the voice of reason.

This post has been disturbing from the beginning.
_________________________
Piano Teacher.
Church Music Director.
Kindermusik Instructor.
Mom to four boys.


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#1277352 - 09/29/09 02:02 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Betty Patnude]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
MA,

Have you dropped away from the topic?

It would be helpful if you verified whether you had posted the videos or not. And, have we missed something that you think is important for us to know?


If I answered No, then I'd be asked "Who posted it then?" And the next question would be "What's your relationship to that person?" So I won't get into this.

It really doesn't matter whether I posted it. How many times have people linked to YouTube videos without questioning whether they were posted legally? Are they just as guilty?

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#1277364 - 09/29/09 02:21 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
If the videos are on YouTube and you're able to embed them, then nothing "wrong" legally has happened.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#1277376 - 09/29/09 02:37 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: C.Y.]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: C.Y.
They are all winners in my book. MA, if your kid is one of those girls, you should be proud of her. Why cares about the ranking by the judges?



I could care less. I was just curious. Art is subjective. That's why I really like to know what the judges were thinking, but it's impossible unless I know them in person.

This competition is unique in that it's the only one that I know of (at least in Northern Calif.) that publishes specific instructions on the difficulty of repertoire. So how would the judges choose? The child who plays a piece that's x% more difficult but y% less perfect than another child or vice versa?

With the diverse vocal members of this forum, I was hoping to learn what the experts would listen for and the thinking behind their possibly different rankings. Unfortunately, we are caught up in the debate of something else.

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#1277378 - 09/29/09 02:41 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: eweiss]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: eweiss
If the videos are on YouTube and you're able to embed them, then nothing "wrong" legally has happened.


By "guilty" I meant in the ethical sense but not the legal sense as it clearly is legal.

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#1277384 - 09/29/09 02:51 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: kevinb]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Anyway, it seems to me that there are enough parents who are unhappy about images of their kids being circulated -- for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly -- that I'd be reluctant to do so without their approval. For me, it seems a matter of courtesy more than one of ethics.


I agree. Maybe I will remove the links as it seems that no more people will care or dare to rank the performances.

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#1277430 - 09/29/09 04:06 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
MA,

Now you tell us:
"With the diverse vocal members of this forum, I was hoping to learn what the experts would listen for and the thinking behind their possibly different rankings. Unfortunately, we are caught up in the debate of something else."

Did you ever say this before?
You might have had a different reaction.

MA: "Maybe I will remove the links as it seems that no more people will care or dare to rank the performances."

Now that you are going to remove the links, I would think of that as a self-protective step to take.

I don't think much gets by past the piano teachers forum. We are very diverse and can be opinionated to various degrees depending upon the complexity or difficulty of a problem. The ethics of situations are important to a lot of us.


Edited by Betty Patnude (09/29/09 04:07 PM)

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#1278038 - 09/30/09 02:46 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Betty Patnude]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
MA,

Now you tell us:
"With the diverse vocal members of this forum, I was hoping to learn what the experts would listen for and the thinking behind their possibly different rankings. Unfortunately, we are caught up in the debate of something else.".


I was simply responding to C.Y.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

Did you ever say this before?
You might have had a different reaction.


Yes, but maybe not in so many words. I am not a verbose person.

If I were a teacher and always questioned a student or the parent’s motive behind a question and assumed the worst intent I could imagine before even considering answering it, then I probably shouldn’t be a teacher. A teacher’s job is to teach, not preach.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
MA: "Maybe I will remove the links as it seems that no more people will care or dare to rank the performances."

Now that you are going to remove the links, I would think of that as a self-protective step to take.


“Self-protective” from what? I wouldn’t worry even if I had videotaped it and posted it on YouTube myself. I have worked with various lawyers specializing in different areas, and it doesn’t surprise me anymore when someone thinks he knows the law when he actually has very little understanding of it.

BTW, I didn’t say I would remove the links. I said maybe. As a courtesy.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
I don't think much gets by past the piano teachers forum. We are very diverse and can be opinionated to various degrees depending upon the complexity or difficulty of a problem. The ethics of situations are important to a lot of us.


You may be highly ethical, but it doesn’t mean other people are less ethical. Take abortion. Who’s more ethical? The pro-life people or the pro-choice ones. Or those who don’t take a stand. I have paid people I had to lay off way more than required by law while others pay just the minimum, which sometimes amounts to nothing, but I don’t think they are less ethical. I try to not judge people because I would be the one being judged.

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#1278040 - 09/30/09 02:51 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.


In my little world I have worked in different countries with peoples of different cultures and seen first hand what you can’t even imagine in your world, and too often I got in trouble when I put myself in someone else’s shoes. It got us in this whole mess we have now in the Middle East because we had thought that the people there would love us if we “liberate” them and give them “democracy”. I’d rather live in my little world than having a small mind.

I never start a fight but always finishes one. If I wanted a fight, I’d at least fight it on my own and not call for reinforcement.

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