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#1275359 - 09/26/09 01:57 AM You be the judge
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
If you were one of the judges who "are instructed not to reward a contestant who is struggling (however heroically) with a too-difficult piece" how would you rank them?

Nocturne in C# minor

Grande Valse brillante in A minor

Fantaisie-Impromptu in C# minor

Nocturne in E-flat


Edited by MA (09/26/09 02:10 AM)
Edit Reason: embed didn't work

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#1275362 - 09/26/09 02:24 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
What is this? The Little Chinese Girl Piano Competition?
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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#1275363 - 09/26/09 02:49 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: keyboardklutz]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I think you can call it that, but some of the girls don't look like Chinese to me.

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#1275364 - 09/26/09 02:59 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
iampiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 30
Loc: SF bayarea
MA,

I was at this competition and I know who won and everything.
But are you going to judge and criticize these kids in this public forum? I really hope you got permission from these contestants and parents. I would not feel comfortable if you post my child's video in this way.

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#1275400 - 09/26/09 05:06 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: iampiano]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
iam is right. I think you should have got their parent's consent.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1275518 - 09/26/09 10:52 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: keyboardklutz]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
This is kind of interesting, from the perspective of ethics and legalities. Was viewing the competition open to the public? Were restrictions placed on videoing the event? If not, I'm not so sure anyone has grounds to complain. Event organizers need to be comprehensive in stating NO RECORDING/VIDEO and no reproduction/use of any program material without written consent of the organization.

If I had to guess, I'd say this wasn't done and as there are no identifiers on the youtube videos except the implication that it might have taken place in the SF Bay Area, it may be a foul, but nothing more. By the way, nice Hamburg Steinway!
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1275592 - 09/26/09 12:32 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: MA
If you were one of the judges who "are instructed not to reward a contestant who is struggling (however heroically) with a too-difficult piece" how would you rank them?


First, I should say that I think that's an odd instruction. The only thing that matters to me when I'm judging is how enjoyable the music is. A person who plays the Fantasie-Impromptu might have an advantage over the Eb Major nocturne, but it's not because of the difficulty level, it's because there's a greater range of texture and technique in the Impromptu. Regardless, I don't think it's much of an issue in this competition, because none of the competitors seem to be playing anything that's "too difficult" for them. They each handle their repertoire very well.

Also, it's a bit odd putting 7 year olds in a competition with 9 year olds. Developmentally speaking, there's a HUGE difference between those two age groups.

For what it's worth, my personal ranking is:

Grande Valse Brillante in A minor
Fantasie-Impromptu
Nocturne in Eb Major
Nocturne in C# minor

My guess is that the actual results put the Fantasie-Impromptu first and Eb Major nocturne 2nd, but it just sorta depends on the judge's personal criteria. I hear some things in the Valse that are rather interesting, even though it's not as impressive a piece as the impromptu.

That being said, the big question in my mind is why are we being asked? I see a few possibilities:

1) Curiosity. If this is the case, then you have my ranking and are free to disagree or agree. That's the nature of competitions, nobody is ever happy with the results, and this is one of the reasons a lot of people dislike judging. It's also why I think a lot of pianists never post on internet forums - no matter what you say, you're going to catch a lot of disagreement and discontent.

2) Seeking Justification for the Actual Results. If you're looking for a poll to justify the results of the competition, then give up now. This isn't American Idol. Art is subjective, get used it.

3) Seeking to Refute the Actual Results. If you're looking for a poll to refute or invalidate the actual results of the competition, then give up now. This isn't American Idol. Art is subjective, get used to it.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1275635 - 09/26/09 01:56 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: keyboardklutz]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Well said, John! It was open to public, and more than one spectator, parents or not, were video taping as the organizer didn't prohibit it.

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#1275637 - 09/26/09 02:01 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Kreisler]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Just curious as I don't know any of the girls. Also want to find out if the judges might have favored more difficult pieces as I might enter my children in the future.

This was the 9 and under age group. That's why you see 7-8 yo competing against 9 yo.

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#1275725 - 09/26/09 05:31 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Kreisler]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5399
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Art is subjective, get used to it.


Well, there are also cases when the judges are completely STUPID and pick the WRONG winners, while giving the most deserving students NOTHING. Organizers of such events are responsible for hiring intelligent, fair, and disinterested judges with the highest artistic integrity. Judges with ulterior motives need to be removed from future competitions. Furthermore, judges who write condescending, scathing, and ridiculous comments should also be removed from future competitions.

Art is subjective, but in classical music there are clear standards of taste and objective "correctness." It's not that difficult to discern good playing from bad playing. The difficulty lies in discerning "shades" or "levels" of good playing.

I'll take a look at the videos...
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#1275735 - 09/26/09 05:51 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: AZNpiano]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5399
Loc: Orange County, CA
Interesting videos.

I don't think the public forum is a good place to discuss these videos, so I will withhold my thoughts.

There are similar competitions in SoCal, and most of them don't prohibit videotaping of any kind. But to me it does seem wrong to post them without the kids' parents' permission.
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#1275778 - 09/26/09 07:33 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: AZNpiano]
iampiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 30
Loc: SF bayarea
John and MA,

OK. This competition was open to public and I don't recall they prohibited recording. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am assuming this is recorded by one parent (MA herself?)and published to Youtube without anyone's permission. I know this organization very well and they did not record this for sure.

Probably, this is not legal issue but to me ethical one. This means anyone can videotape any child in any open recitals/competitions and publish it to public for critique?

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#1275783 - 09/26/09 07:48 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: iampiano]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: iampiano
Probably, this is not legal issue but to me ethical one. This means anyone can videotape any child in any open recitals/competitions and publish it to public for critique?


I raised the issue as a red flag to teachers. Public means public and what you do in public is public. If it were a private recital, then we'd be discussing different issues.

Actually, I'm happy this came up now, as I am co-chairing a recital in just 5 weeks, and videography and recording is always an issue. I will probably bring this to our chapter and tell them that unless they agree to have a printed and announced restriction on photography of one's own students, and no posting on open forums, etc., etc.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1275794 - 09/26/09 08:08 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I too think it is inappropriate to videotape young people without their family's permission and then to post the results to the web.
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1275900 - 09/26/09 11:02 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I don't disagree with you, but that matters little. From what I see on the news, tv in general, and all over the internet, if you do it in public, you're probably being watched and it will be posted somewhere. Teachers need to be aware of this, and take steps to insure students' privacy.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1275943 - 09/27/09 01:18 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: MA
Well said, John! It was open to public, and more than one spectator, parents or not, were video taping as the organizer didn't prohibit it.


I'd certainly like to know more about how these videos were made, and if permission from the kids parents were given, to both video them and post them on YouTube.

I have a daughter, and if anyone posted a video of her on YouTube - despite the fact that "the organizers didn't prohibit it" -I would go after them.

A little more information, please.

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#1276039 - 09/27/09 10:11 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Phlebas, what do you think the net result would be? Do you feel your case would win? Would it be a Pyrrhic victory? What if the court sided with the videographer/poster? Would you pull your daughter from public performances? How much money would you be willing to spend defending your child's right to privacy at a public event? Is there such a right?

I certainly don't know the answers to these questions, but we teachers better be aware that parents have strong feelings on these issues and with the ease of video recording, better take steps to protect ourselves from litigation.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1276056 - 09/27/09 10:51 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The laws regarding the posting of video and pictures on the internet are extremely vague and confusing. I did some searching regarding release forms, public performance, etc., and there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. Furthermore, the laws change from state to state, so what's acceptable in California may not be in other states and vice versa.

Another thought I had - even the parents weren't told that the competition was being recorded, there are microphones dangling from the ceiling right in front of the piano and the camera was obviously a nice, high definition camera. How could they not have known?

In a way, I think it's very unfortunate that performances like these never get discussed. I posted my ranking hoping someone would agree or disagree, thus starting a discussion on what to listen for in competitions involving young pianists. Nobody seems interested. Is judging doomed to remain a mysterious, capriciously subjective activity. How does one choose judges? What makes one person a better judge than another? The way most judges are picked for things like these are by word of mouth. Pianists are deemed qualified if they are college faculty have a graduate degree in music, and yet no graduate program in piano I know of includes any instruction or study of the adjudication process.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1276062 - 09/27/09 10:57 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
In most organizations (like churches, for instance), if the kids go on an outing sponsored by the organization and photos are taken of them that might be used anywhere in the organization's publicity, they ask for a release form to be signed granting permission for incidental usage of the child's photos. This suggests that the default position is that the family's privacy is primary and the photographer's use of images is secondary. I don't know if the analogy holds here, but I suspect these families signed no release forms permitting images to be used by other parties. In the absence of a signed release it is at least possible that unauthorized use of their children's images may be a violation of their privacy. The fact that the performance was pubic may or may not change this. If the sponsoring organization did NOT get a signed release from the family, that fact may be binding on others. In other words a videographer might legally have to obtain the permission of the organization (which already had the permission of the family) in order to make a video of the competition.
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1276066 - 09/27/09 11:11 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Kreisler,

If MA made the recordings using a nice camera, that does not at all suggest that the parents must have known she was doing it. Suppose the sponsoring organization itself was making a beautiful HD recording, and the parents knew, then the issue is whether or not the parents granted permission (or needed to grant permission) to the organization to use those images for public presentation. I suspect most parents would sign off on that because their interests and the organization's interests most likely are aligned. It's something else for some unknown person to record the performances and then to use them for whatever they like, all without permission. That person's interests and the families' interests may not at all be aligned.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1276075 - 09/27/09 11:34 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
Dorrie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 438
This seems like an instance where something that is legal may also be just plain wrong.

I would be upset if a video of my daughter were posted without my knowledge, especially if done in this way (splicing each performance, posting to a messsage board, asking for feedback and re-judging).

I'm sure I would have signed the release, and I would not have been upset if the sponsoring organization had posted the recordings.

I doubt I would get an attorney, but if I could identify MA, I would certainly ask that it be removed. I might indicate to the sponsoring association that this had happened and express my displeasure.

These are little girls. What if the posting had lead to a dissecting of their performances in a public forum? Neither they nor their families asked for the critique.

Common decency would suggest removing the links.

Dorrie

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#1276126 - 09/27/09 01:32 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Phlebas, what do you think the net result would be? Do you feel your case would win? Would it be a Pyrrhic victory? What if the court sided with the videographer/poster? Would you pull your daughter from public performances? How much money would you be willing to spend defending your child's right to privacy at a public event? Is there such a right?

I certainly don't know the answers to these questions, but we teachers better be aware that parents have strong feelings on these issues and with the ease of video recording, better take steps to protect ourselves from litigation.


I'm putting myself in the shoes of the parents of the kids in that competition.

I would go after anyone who put a video of my daughter on the internet without my permission. If I sign a release that the organization sponsoring a recital or competition could do so, that is fine, and I can live with it. Someone not aligned with the organization to video my daughter at that venue, and put the videos on YouTube is an outrage, and I wouldn't stand for it. I would find out who they are find out what my options are for coming after them legally.

Why would I pull my daughter from public performances? Some people think that in this age of Youtube, etc., that your life is 100% public as soon as you step outside your door. I don't believe that.

I have exceptionally strong feeling about this. Teachers need to definitely be aware that parents have strong feelings about this.

What right does some other parent have to video my daughter, and post it to an online forum asking "ok, who's better?"

I would really like the OP to come back here, and explain how these videos were done - who did them, etc..

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#1276178 - 09/27/09 03:26 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: MA
If you were one of the judges who "are instructed not to reward a contestant who is struggling (however heroically) with a too-difficult piece" how would you rank them?

Nocturne in C# minor

Grande Valse brillante in A minor

Fantaisie-Impromptu in C# minor

Nocturne in E-flat


The second video is the Op. 17 No. 4 Mazurka.

Honestly don't see what the problem is since the performers are not named, unless the parents forbade the posting of these videos. After all, I don't think these videos could be construed as exploitative in a criminal sense, though perhaps in an ethical sense.

Also don't see why anyone needs to pass judgement on the relative merits of each performer, when they are so young. What's the point of this thread?

It's just not worth our time to dissect the performances of musicians who are not yet finished. Obviously each of these four young ladies has tremendous potential, but I think it best to leave critique/dissection to their individual teachers/teacher at this point. I agree that the links (and perhaps the videos) ought to be pulled.


Edited by Horowitzian (09/27/09 03:37 PM)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1276208 - 09/27/09 04:19 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Horowitzian]
Gary001 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 201
Loc: UK
Quote:
What right does some other parent have to video my daughter, and post it to an online forum asking "ok, who's better?"


Parents should be allowed to film everyone taking part in a recital, school play, sporting event... however I do agree with you when it comes to posting on the internet, or for that matter inclusion in a TV program, news item, newspaper article that permission of each and every person should be sought. Not only because I feel that is the right thing to do, but because some of those taking part (both children and adults) may be at risk.

Any events where the organisers intend to film and distribute the event publically, (be it internet, tv or somthing similar) should have the participants permission before hand. At least that way, anyone who objects can decide whether to take part or not and organisers can decide whether to make an exception for specific cases.

I'd hate to not have the videos of school plays I took part in, even though they're often embarrasing wink

I wonder what the legal situation is with this though. I'd hope there are no laws stopping parents filming events their children take part in, but at the same time hope there's something that stops public distribution without prior permission whether the distribution is for commercial gain or not.

I do remember there been an law/exception when it comes to certain events where it is impracticle to get permission of everyone, for example spectators at a televised football game. So perhaps there are laws that cover this already?

Maybe that's something those of you that run recitals should look into for future events?

As for judging those involved in the competition, I agree with the others in this thread, other than to say the two I watched are clearly way ahead of me in their playing ability smile

Edit: Just done some googling on the legal aspects of this and it turned up an interesting blog post. I think event organisers do risk stigmatising parents who are guilty of nothing more than been good parents.

http://www.qwerf.com/?p=509

Quote:
There’s an older article on BBC news dealing with school plays/sports days entitled “Parents’ right to film children” - a government body actually advising schools NOT to stop parents filming their children, as long as it is for personal use.


I think that last sentance pretty much sums it up and sounds pretty sane to me.
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#1276240 - 09/27/09 05:42 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Gary001]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I think we scared MA off. frown
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1276244 - 09/27/09 05:48 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Horowitzian]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5893
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
The second video is the Op. 17 No. 4 Mazurka.
Huh? No it isn't, it's the waltz op.34 no.2.
(on my computer, anyway smile )
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1276300 - 09/27/09 08:35 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Gary001]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Gary001
Quote:
What right does some other parent have to video my daughter, and post it to an online forum asking "ok, who's better?"


Parents should be allowed to film everyone taking part in a recital, school play, sporting event... however I do agree with you when it comes to posting on the internet, or for that matter inclusion in a TV program, news item, newspaper article that permission of each and every person should be sought. Not only because I feel that is the right thing to do, but because some of those taking part (both children and adults) may be at risk.

Any events where the organisers intend to film and distribute the event publically, (be it internet, tv or somthing similar) should have the participants permission before hand. At least that way, anyone who objects can decide whether to take part or not and organisers can decide whether to make an exception for specific cases.

I'd hate to not have the videos of school plays I took part in, even though they're often embarrasing wink

I wonder what the legal situation is with this though. I'd hope there are no laws stopping parents filming events their children take part in, but at the same time hope there's something that stops public distribution without prior permission whether the distribution is for commercial gain or not.

I do remember there been an law/exception when it comes to certain events where it is impracticle to get permission of everyone, for example spectators at a televised football game. So perhaps there are laws that cover this already?

Maybe that's something those of you that run recitals should look into for future events?

As for judging those involved in the competition, I agree with the others in this thread, other than to say the two I watched are clearly way ahead of me in their playing ability smile

Edit: Just done some googling on the legal aspects of this and it turned up an interesting blog post. I think event organisers do risk stigmatising parents who are guilty of nothing more than been good parents.

http://www.qwerf.com/?p=509

Quote:
There’s an older article on BBC news dealing with school plays/sports days entitled “Parents’ right to film children” - a government body actually advising schools NOT to stop parents filming their children, as long as it is for personal use.


I think that last sentance pretty much sums it up and sounds pretty sane to me.


What was posted here in PW - a popular worldwide forum for piano dealers, teachers, performers, students, parents of students... - was not an example of a parent videoing other children in the same performance of their child. It was solo performances of the other children.

Everyone knows that parents can - and should be able to - video a group dance, school show, or other performance that includes other kids. That is fine, fair, no problem.
The problem starts when someone posts the videos on YOtube, and on an Internet forum.

Different scenarios are possible - as I view the videos:

1) The OP did the videos, and posted them on YouTube.

2) The organizers videoed the performers, sold/supplied the parents with dvd's of the entire competition, and the OP posted them on Youtube.

3) Some other third party videoed, and provided the OP with the dvd, which were then posted by the OP on YOuTube.

None of the above would be - IMO - appropriate.

I think we did scare away the OP, but he/she should answer some questions on how these videos were done, and posted.

btw, the article you linked does not seem to apply at all to the US, where this competition took place.


Edited by Phlebas (09/27/09 08:35 PM)

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#1276347 - 09/27/09 11:15 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Kreisler]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I do not like the idea that someone's parent would post other young children's piano performance and rerun the competition again.

Those videos are out there forever now and might be embarrassing or annoying to someone - like the children themselves - or their parents - or their piano teachers.

If the competition organizers and judges object to the "after the event" discussion here in Piano World, that would be another faction heard from.

I think the people - students, teachers, parents - are the ones who should complain if they think poor judging occured. The adjudicator doesn't get invited next time. Sour grapes it seems.

I'm not the least big interested in looking at the videos since there is an obvious "hidden agenda".

And the instruction to not reward a student who is struggling with their piece is totally out of place. It is obvious when a piece is not up to par regardless of the difficulty level. Teachers and parents should not tax their children so heavily with a music performance that can self destruct. Musical integrity applies to the teacher - parent - and the student and the judges in my book.

I haven't had my students participate in chapter adjudications in a very long time because of patronizing comments from the adjudicators when the system allows so very little time for the student and adjudicator to hear the pieces and make quick comments. Adjudication does make sense to me once the student is approaching advanced levels of playing and if they are competition oriented or preparing as college music majors.

I have adjudicated for a chapter along with a group of other teachers at a festival for 5 years running. There were so many students participating that there were about 10 rooms judging at the same time. After some point, your hand starts cramping from writing so much, and you run out of energy, although you continue giving your full attention to greeting each performer and writing something congratulatory and pertinent.

During these same years, I adjudicated with 2 other teachers for the Washington State PTA Reflections Program in composition which was many hours of listening to tapes and viewing manuscripts that the students had written. Again, comments and discussion among the team of adjudicators, and your written notes about each student to guide you in the final decisions.

You are just trying to do your best when you are in that position to assign placement for awards. I used a number system to keep track of categories and ratings for each student. Thank goodness for that as once adjudication overload hits, it's hard to remember what occured. That's where video playbacks would be helpful for the final selections.

Long hours. Big effort.

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#1276360 - 09/27/09 11:49 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Betty Patnude]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Getting back to MA's question, and Kreisler's comments, my ranking would be almost the same, but as K said, I'd reverse the first two:

Fantasie-Impromptu
Grande Valse Brillante in A minor
Nocturne in Eb Major
Nocturne in C# minor

But in fairness, it was close.

Now, for the record, I don't judge, and probably never will. My tastes are too arcane and students/teachers wouldn't be happy with the results.

Also for the record, I'd be thrilled if any of my HS students would do as well as these four young ladies, who all played very commendably, with absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

One other comment - for Americans - we are, apparently, the only country where stage crews/schools feel the need to use those ridiculous dollies for grand pianos. That's a dead giveaway that this was in the USA. The European grands, and I'm guessing the Asian brands as well, can be rolled quite easily on the rollers the pianos come with.
_________________________
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#1276363 - 09/27/09 11:57 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: currawong]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
The second video is the Op. 17 No. 4 Mazurka.
Huh? No it isn't, it's the waltz op.34 no.2.
(on my computer, anyway smile )


Oops, dang. I was listening to that recently and I must have mixed them up!! blush Thanks for the catch, currawong! smile
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#1276469 - 09/28/09 07:46 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Horowitzian]
Gary001 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 201
Loc: UK
Quote:
What was posted here in PW - a popular worldwide forum for piano dealers, teachers, performers, students, parents of students... - was not an example of a parent videoing other children in the same performance of their child. It was solo performances of the other children.


I fully agree with you about posting the recording in an online forum (or youtube for that matter) without permission. But the question really needs to be, was permission legally required? and if it was not required, organisers need to be aware of this and take steps to ensure it is.

Which is what John touched upon in his post and combined with your post gave me the impression that organisers of recitals might consider prohibiting all filming which would be a great loss imo. Rather than allowing filming for private viewing but not for public distribution without permission.

Please don't get me wrong, I agree with what you've said in regards to the OP, I just wanted to ensure that any organisers reading this thread realise how important videoing can be and do not over-react.

Quote:
btw, the article you linked does not seem to apply at all to the US, where this competition took place.


Just reread my post and it does sound like I gave the wrong impression, I found the article whilst googling the "legal aspects", but it wasn't the legal parts of the article that made me post. It was just a good demonstration of how parents can be unfairly demonised and to show that that even governments (in this case the UK) believe it's important for parents to be allowed to film. I should have made that clearer.
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#1276483 - 09/28/09 08:35 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Gary001]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
[quote=Gary001
Just reread my post and it does sound like I gave the wrong impression, I found the article whilst googling the "legal aspects", but it wasn't the legal parts of the article that made me post. It was just a good demonstration of how parents can be unfairly demonised and to show that that even governments (in this case the UK) believe it's important for parents to be allowed to film. I should have made that clearer. [/quote]

You're right. Parents can be unfairly demonised. It would be a shame if they were not allowed to video their children performing. I just think it's strange to video other kids in a solo performance venue like a piano recital or competition.

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#1276544 - 09/28/09 11:08 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
R0B Offline
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Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1437
Loc: Australia
Might it be better, if the organisers of such events, placed a blanket ban on audience members videoing the performances, and instead, provided an 'official' video, which members of the audience could purchase, after the event?

The official video could then be supplied, on the proviso that it is for personal use only, and that it may not be shown publicly, or transmitted via any electronic means, including the Internet, without the express, or written permission of the participants involved.

It seems to me that this would cover all the angles.
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#1276580 - 09/28/09 12:49 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: R0B]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Personally, I think recording should never be allowed in competitions for kids under the age of 18. The potential for complaint and abuse is far too likely. If parents want videos of their children, studio recitals can always fill that need.

I'm in charge of a competition next month, and there will be NO recording. I'm not even going to ask people's opinions, I'm just going to make an executive decision and ban the devices from the venue altogether. laugh
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#1276582 - 09/28/09 12:52 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I'm putting myself in the shoes of the parents of the kids in that competition.


Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.

On the otherhand, I can answer Yes to all these questions. If I didn't like it, I'd PM the OP and ASK her to remove the video. I wouldn't THREATEN her in any way because the law is on her side. Failing that, I'd contact YouTube and request the video be removed, but YouTube might tell me that the poster of the video has not violated its policy, and she has the right to post the video under The Constitutions.

Then again, why wouldn't I like my daughter's winning performance being posted on YouTube? Because I don't want her to be judged by people I don't know? But wait, didn't I already send her to this public competition judged by people I didn't know?

In fact, I'd be pround to see my daughter's video here and appreciate feedbacks from other experts whether or not she got the first prize. I'd pass them on to her teacher, too.

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I would go after anyone who put a video of my daughter on the internet without my permission. If I sign a release that the organization sponsoring a recital or competition could do so, that is fine, and I can live with it. Someone not aligned with the organization to video my daughter at that venue, and put the videos on YouTube is an outrage, and I wouldn't stand for it. I would find out who they are find out what my options are for coming after them legally.


I'd doubt any lawyer would take your case, except perhaps those who are out of jobs/clients. Then you'd better be parepared to pay your defendant's attorney's fee when the court throw out your frivilous lawsuit.

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Why would I pull my daughter from public performances? Some people think that in this age of Youtube, etc., that your life is 100% public as soon as you step outside your door. I don't believe that.


Of course you wouldn't if you "believe" the word "public" means x% public + y% private. As Clinton told the grand jury, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I have exceptionally strong feeling about this. Teachers need to definitely be aware that parents have strong feelings about this.


More correctly, SOME parents have strong feelings about this whereas other parents are on the opposite side.

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
What right does some other parent have to video my daughter, and post it to an online forum asking "ok, who's better?".


The purpose of this topic is rather "Judge the judging" than " Judge the kids".

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I would really like the OP to come back here, and explain how these videos were done - who did them, etc..


Are you the KGB?

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#1276588 - 09/28/09 01:20 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I'm putting myself in the shoes of the parents of the kids in that competition.


Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.

On the otherhand, I can answer Yes to all these questions


Not in this particular competition, though. On page one of this thread, you told us that you didn't know any of the competitors.

If you didn't record the competitors, then we're not criticizing you. If you are the person who posted the videos on YouTube, then you recorded other people's children and haven't said whether or not you had their permission or blessing.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1276647 - 09/28/09 02:49 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Kreisler]
bitWrangler Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1785
Loc: Central TX
Interesting subject.

Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?


I meet, almost, all the criteria above so I guess I'm allowed to put my 2 pence in.

I just recently placed a few recordings of my daughters chamber group performances on utoob. Before I did so, I got permission from the parents of the other members. The replies to my requests for permission ranged from gratitude to amazement that I would even think I needed to ask, in all cases permission was granted. I wanted to take this approach because I place value in the desires of the other parents and I fully understand that some may not want their kiddos on youtube, I'm ok with that.

From a "legal" standpoint (and IANAL) I would think the biggest thing would be from a copyright standpoint (which would be consistent from state to state). If you record someone performing, they are the copyright holder of that performance, and unless they signed their rights over to the organization holding the performance, recording of the performance and subsequent posting on utube could be the basis for a copyright violation. Note that explicit permission needs to be granted, not the other way around (i.e. if nothing is specifically mentioned then you can assume that you don't have permission). I'm not as familiar with things like personal releases.

So as has been mentioned, I do think that both parents and teachers need to be aware that we are in this brave new world both legally and ethically with regards to posting someone else's kids videos on the web. If you're a parent, and are concerned about this occurring, then you need to query event organizers about the issue and get clarification on what is/isn't allowed. If the parent is uncomfortable with the answer, then they are obviously free to not participate. Ditto with teachers, they can plan for this for events they control (e.g. recitals) and be facilitators by making themselves knowledgeable about the laws and practicalities of these scenarios and preparing students/parents appropriately.

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#1276684 - 09/28/09 04:02 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: bitWrangler]
iampiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 30
Loc: SF bayarea
MA,

The reason I was at this competition was that my son competed. Actually, we posted his winners recital video on youtube.

However, if his video was posted in the way you did, I would feel very violated.
Especially, those young girls are just starting competitions. They are not exposed to youtube or facebook unlike my son. Other parents reaction in this thread is totally normal.

You say if they don't like videos, just ask you to remove. But you rather did it anonymously. The chances are they don't even realize their videos are on the web. Once they are public, anyone can link them anywhere. Do you feel OK if this happens to your daughter without your knowledge?
Also, if you are considering sending your daughter to this competition, I am afraid this research you are trying to conduct will do any good. Why do you want to criticize judges? You never know if you can always stay anonymous. It's a very small community.

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#1276707 - 09/28/09 04:41 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: iampiano]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5399
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: iampiano
Why do you want to criticize judges?


--playing the devil's advocate here--

Becuase some judges are just plain BAD. I've witnessed and worked with judges who have problems. Some are just inept. Some are brilliant musicians, but they have ulterior motives. And some have hidden agendas.

This is really nothing new. But, with better management and preparation on the part of the event organizers, a lot of these problems can be averted.
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#1276726 - 09/28/09 05:16 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: AZNpiano]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17733
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I think the legality/morality of recording and uploading the videos depends entirely on whether a recital would be considered a "public" event. To give an analogy, in the regulations governing research with human participants, a distinction is made between observing behavior in public settings (where, with few exceptions, no informed consent is required) vs. that occurring in settings where the individual could reasonably expect privacy.

I do think there will be a range of reactions from parents. I personally wouldn't mind at all for videos of my children to be made in public settings. Actually, the only thing that ever irritates me is when the parent in front of me stands up to do the videotaping and blocks my view. laugh
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#1276734 - 09/28/09 05:25 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: AZNpiano]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't). Any normal person can 'put themselves in another's shoes' by imagining their circumstances. Many of us who have tried to do so have expressed to you how uncomfortable we would be if a stranger took videos of our children and posted them on the web without our permission. You may ignore these arguments and expressions of our feelings as you choose. And each of us will evaluate you by what you express.
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#1276739 - 09/28/09 05:31 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I'm putting myself in the shoes of the parents of the kids in that competition.


Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.

On the otherhand, I can answer Yes to all these questions. If I didn't like it, I'd PM the OP and ASK her to remove the video. I wouldn't THREATEN her in any way because the law is on her side. Failing that, I'd contact YouTube and request the video be removed, but YouTube might tell me that the poster of the video has not violated its policy, and she has the right to post the video under The Constitutions.

Then again, why wouldn't I like my daughter's winning performance being posted on YouTube? Because I don't want her to be judged by people I don't know? But wait, didn't I already send her to this public competition judged by people I didn't know?

In fact, I'd be pround to see my daughter's video here and appreciate feedbacks from other experts whether or not she got the first prize. I'd pass them on to her teacher, too.

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I would go after anyone who put a video of my daughter on the internet without my permission. If I sign a release that the organization sponsoring a recital or competition could do so, that is fine, and I can live with it. Someone not aligned with the organization to video my daughter at that venue, and put the videos on YouTube is an outrage, and I wouldn't stand for it. I would find out who they are find out what my options are for coming after them legally.


I'd doubt any lawyer would take your case, except perhaps those who are out of jobs/clients. Then you'd better be parepared to pay your defendant's attorney's fee when the court throw out your frivilous lawsuit.

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Why would I pull my daughter from public performances? Some people think that in this age of Youtube, etc., that your life is 100% public as soon as you step outside your door. I don't believe that.


Of course you wouldn't if you "believe" the word "public" means x% public + y% private. As Clinton told the grand jury, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I have exceptionally strong feeling about this. Teachers need to definitely be aware that parents have strong feelings about this.


More correctly, SOME parents have strong feelings about this whereas other parents are on the opposite side.

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
What right does some other parent have to video my daughter, and post it to an online forum asking "ok, who's better?".


The purpose of this topic is rather "Judge the judging" than " Judge the kids".

Originally Posted By: Phlebas
I would really like the OP to come back here, and explain how these videos were done - who did them, etc..


Are you the KGB?


I asked first. I'll repeat: How did the videos get on YouTube, and posted on PW, and with who's permission?

If you simply posted them on a whim - with no permissions from the parents - to get PW posters to rate them, then I have a very low opinion of what you did.

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#1276742 - 09/28/09 05:36 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: iampiano]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: iampiano
MA,

The reason I was at this competition was that my son competed. Actually, we posted his winners recital video on youtube.

However, if his video was posted in the way you did, I would feel very violated.
Especially, those young girls are just starting competitions. They are not exposed to youtube or facebook unlike my son. Other parents reaction in this thread is totally normal.

You say if they don't like videos, just ask you to remove. But you rather did it anonymously. The chances are they don't even realize their videos are on the web. Once they are public, anyone can link them anywhere. Do you feel OK if this happens to your daughter without your knowledge?
Also, if you are considering sending your daughter to this competition, I am afraid this research you are trying to conduct will do any good. Why do you want to criticize judges? You never know if you can always stay anonymous. It's a very small community.


If you don't mind my asking, what was the competition?

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#1276747 - 09/28/09 05:41 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Monica K.]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
I think the legality/morality of recording and uploading the videos depends entirely on whether a recital would be considered a "public" event. To give an analogy, in the regulations governing research with human participants, a distinction is made between observing behavior in public settings (where, with few exceptions, no informed consent is required) vs. that occurring in settings where the individual could reasonably expect privacy.

I do think there will be a range of reactions from parents. I personally wouldn't mind at all for videos of my children to be made in public settings. Actually, the only thing that ever irritates me is when the parent in front of me stands up to do the videotaping and blocks my view. laugh



Monica,

The making of the video is not the entire issue. Making a video of a public performance should be fine - although it's a little weird to video other kids doing solo stuff. That's never happened at a competition or recital my daughter's played at.

The main issue is taking the video of someone else's children, and posting them on YouTube without the permission of the parents, and further, starting a thread asking people to rate them on a very populat piano forum. That is wrong.

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#1276769 - 09/28/09 06:11 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5399
Loc: Orange County, CA
While I can certainly appreciate MA's intent--some judges should NOT be judging at all--I disagree with the way the videos are produced and presented. Now I can see why some organizations forbid videotaping of performances, of any kind. I am also in the capacity of making some organizational decisions, and I think I should push for some rule changes to curtail videotaping (and posting) of student performances other than that of a parent's own kids.
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#1276820 - 09/28/09 07:19 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: AZNpiano]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
One of our nemesis are sports programs, but we can sometimes learn from them. Just trying to correlate a bit here, how would you feel as a parent if your child was in a public ball game and video of that game were posted on youtube? Would you feel the same or differently? Why? What about a swim meet? Is that the same as soccer or football or somehow different? How about a wrestling match? Would you feel the same way? Do athletes have to sign a privacy waiver form of some kind, or is it just expected that they'll be on tv and the web?

Likewise, our youth symphony. We occasionally put concerts up on public access tv. In the past, we haven't had the students/parents sign waivers. Should we do this for the future? We've never had complaints, except when we don't do it often enough.
_________________________
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#1276833 - 09/28/09 07:33 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
iampiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 30
Loc: SF bayarea
The 14th Annual San Francisco Chopin Competition for Young Pianists (http://chopinsf.org/competition.html) The website has not been updated last competitions' result, yet.

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#1276841 - 09/28/09 07:42 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
A big difference is that it's a sport where team cooperation is needed and the outcome is owned by all members of the team for their individual and collective performances. Team enthusiasm with the group of cheerleaders and parents make team sports a recreation and entertainment genre.

In a piano competition the soloist is the primary object from the moment they enter the stage area and cross to the piano until they take their bow and leave the area. The arena is one of quiet.

Depending on the experience of the videographer, the camera might zoom in for close-ups which witness what the performer is experiencing as he or she plays. It is more than a duplication of the composer's piece and the intended performance of it to a established standard, it is an exposure of the student's mind and body working together with musical intelligence. The performer is exposed forever for their individual natural talents and their acquired skills at the age they are, in the length of study there are at, on this particular day. It can go well, it can go badly.

Even if the student, teacher and parent were absolutely proud of the performance posting it on YouTube is something that they may regret doing in the future. YouTube is full of sorely lacking amateurs as well as promising young talent and accomplish musicians. In situations like this, if one does develop a career in years to come, someone is always going to remember you when you "slipped and split your eyebrow on the pavement" so to speak.

I think our students are deserving of privacy. Don't be hasty to show the world. And, no one should post another student's video for the purpose of using it for competetive criticism about other competitors.

In sports coaches have much more clout with their players than we do with our students. So comparing that issue to teachers influence would be something of interest, too.

Team sports over arts education is not comparable in my mind. However, martial arts to me are an art form.

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#1276865 - 09/28/09 08:25 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Betty Patnude]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Okay, Betty, since you're being ornery today, how about diving?

What I'm trying to do, and I think many get it, is thinking through this issue. We here in the far west have a huge number of Asian students who come from different cultures. Parents are making videos even when we say, "don't." Who knows what happens to them. This is a very murky area and needs careful discussion.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1276866 - 09/28/09 08:27 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
One of our nemesis are sports programs, but we can sometimes learn from them. Just trying to correlate a bit here, how would you feel as a parent if your child was in a public ball game and video of that game were posted on youtube? Would you feel the same or differently? Why? What about a swim meet? Is that the same as soccer or football or somehow different? How about a wrestling match? Would you feel the same way? Do athletes have to sign a privacy waiver form of some kind, or is it just expected that they'll be on tv and the web?

Likewise, our youth symphony. We occasionally put concerts up on public access tv. In the past, we haven't had the students/parents sign waivers. Should we do this for the future? We've never had complaints, except when we don't do it often enough.


Again, it's not the act of videoing a team sport, or a youth symphony. It's the purposeful posting of videos of children to a forum to ask the question "how would you rank them?".

Some of this is a grey area. To do what the OP did - pending an answer to the numerous requests for her to explain herself - is wrong.

As far as waivers of your recitals go, I don't think that's necessary. I would make it clear that any video is for personal use.

Common sense and propriety dictate that you do not publicly display someone else's child for all the world to see without the parents' permission. Unfortunately, common sense cannot be relied on - as demonstrated by the OP.


Edited by Phlebas (09/28/09 08:29 PM)

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#1276877 - 09/28/09 08:36 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Phlebas
Common sense and propriety dictate that you do not publicly display someone else's child for all the world to see without the parents' permission. Unfortunately, common sense cannot be relied on - as demonstrated by the OP.


This is my view as well.

Technology allows people to do things today that were impossible in the past, so the frequency of situations of this sort is bound to increase.
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#1276882 - 09/28/09 08:41 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
In fairness, the third estate has long violated this notion.

The following is an image of war that anyone of a certain age will recognize instantly:




Yet I doubt that MA's posting of these videos rises to a freedom of the press issue or to a public right to know issue. Hence the common sense critique still holds.
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#1276938 - 09/28/09 09:55 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Just curious, but why are we assuming MA was the one who posted the videos on YouTube?

I know it seems like that's the case, but we could all be making a huge mistake. On first glance, I didn't associate MA with the channel she linked. Or did I miss something?
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#1276943 - 09/28/09 10:03 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I just came across this a propos our discussion.
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#1276949 - 09/28/09 10:11 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Kreisler]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just curious, but why are we assuming MA was the one who posted the videos on YouTube?

I know it seems like that's the case, but we could all be making a huge mistake. On first glance, I didn't associate MA with the channel she linked. Or did I miss something?


Quite true. We have presumed that MA recorded the videos and then posted them. S(he) has never disabused us of this assumption so it became the working hypothesis. But whoever posted them, the issues remain as long as parental consent was not sought and obtained.
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#1276952 - 09/28/09 10:18 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
MA,

Have you dropped away from the topic?

It would be helpful if you verified whether you had posted the videos or not. And, have we missed something that you think is important for us to know?

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#1276966 - 09/28/09 10:50 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Kreisler]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just curious, but why are we assuming MA was the one who posted the videos on YouTube?

I know it seems like that's the case, but we could all be making a huge mistake. On first glance, I didn't associate MA with the channel she linked. Or did I miss something?


I don't know, Kreisler. A Youtube channel was created on Sept. 25th with 4 videos posted on that channel. Very early the next morning a thread was posted here with those same 4 videos asking us to rank them. It didn't pass the sniff test with me from the beginning.

My guess is the OP posted them on YouTube, but I'm not assuming that's the case. That's why I asked the OP to elaborate on what was going on. She's been asked repeatedly, and has yet to answer.

What happens when you take a video - even a nice performance, as all 4 were - which were done in a controlled setting, and then post them on YouTube for all the world to see, is you can get unpleasant consequences. Something their parents and the child should be proud of gets a comment like "What is this? The Little Chinese Girl Piano Competition?" - which was what kbk said in the thread. So, by posting the video on the internet, someone on the other side of the world has an opportunity to take a proud moment someone had in their own town, and say something mean about it. Much worse can happen on YouTube in terms of comments.

That's why when people do knobheaded things - like the OP did in starting this thread - they should be called on it.

So, MA, come back and tell us more about this.


Edited by Phlebas (09/28/09 10:52 PM)

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#1276976 - 09/28/09 11:11 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Phlebas]
iampiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 30
Loc: SF bayarea
I don't want to sound mean but does it matter who recorded these videos and posted them on youtube? It could me MA herself, her family or friend? The only thing that is certain is that The SF Chopin foundation did not record these. I thought she already admitted that these videos were taken since the competition was public and published on youtube without family's permission.

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#1277039 - 09/29/09 02:39 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: iampiano]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: iampiano
The reason I was at this competition was that my son competed. Actually, we posted his winners recital video on youtube.


Congratulations!

Originally Posted By: iampiano
Do you feel OK if this happens to your daughter without your knowledge?


I thought I already said yes. In fact, I'd be proud and thank the person for doing it.

Originally Posted By: iampiano
Why do you want to criticize judges?


Judging the judging does not mean criticizing the judges. If your son had not won, would you have felt differently about judging the judges?

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#1277044 - 09/29/09 03:09 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?

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#1277046 - 09/29/09 03:15 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
In fairness, the third estate has long violated this notion.

The following is an image of war that anyone of a certain age will recognize instantly:




Yet I doubt that MA's posting of these videos rises to a freedom of the press issue or to a public right to know issue. Hence the common sense critique still holds.


Why not? Because the ends justify the means?

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#1277049 - 09/29/09 03:24 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
GYABEAUX Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 133
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: iampiano
Do you feel OK if this happens to your daughter without your knowledge?


I thought I already said yes. In fact, I'd be proud and thank the person for doing it.


You in particular may be fine with it but not everybody would be; there is no reason to assume everyone thinks like you do. You have no idea exactly what each performer in those videos and their parents think unless you've directly spoken with them about making such a thread in a popular, public piano forum.

Let's think of the possibilities: do you feel OK if your child is being ridiculed on the net without your knowledge? That random strangers say she didn't deserve what she got because of the judges, not due to her performance? If the videos were linked elsewhere, do you feel OK if your daughter is praised by people who refer to girls as "lolis"? Do you feel OK if your child finds out that he or she is being put on the spot online? These are just a few of many other concerns parents may have - parents who don't think exactly like you do.

This isn't limited to children's performances. I'd be pretty upset if these were videos of me taken without permission. It can make a solid court case of copyright infringement and invasion of privacy where I am. Eager prosecutors might even throw in charges along the lines of exploiting children.

MA, I get the feeling from your original post that you're not happy with the judges' decisions but asking people to judge the kids, possibly without proper permissions, can get you into serious trouble. Even if you receive responses in favor of the performer(s) you're rooting for, I don't believe the child(ren) would be happy about "justice" being served in this manner on a public forum. Peace.
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#1277094 - 09/29/09 06:13 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
We live in an odd world, and I think we have increasingly to accept that there is no longer such a thing as privacy. I'm not saying that's necessarily good -- although I believe in some senses it is -- but it's my observation. Governments respond to the increasing loss of privacy driven by technology by enacting a heap of hodge-podge, ill-considered legislation. Institutions respond mainly as Kreisler has done -- by banning all forms of photography (which, in the UK at least, they're entitled to do on their own land, at least for now). But it seems that technology is abolishing privacy faster than society can deal with it.

Anyway, it seems to me that there are enough parents who are unhappy about images of their kids being circulated -- for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly -- that I'd be reluctant to do so without their approval. For me, it seems a matter of courtesy more than one of ethics.

Also, in the UK at least, publishing a video of a person's piano performance, without permission, on a public web site would most definitely amount to a breach of that person's intellectual property rights and is a criminal offence. Again, that's an observation rather than a statement of approval on my part smirk

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#1277109 - 09/29/09 07:06 AM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.


Edited by Piano*Dad (09/29/09 07:07 AM)
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#1277275 - 09/29/09 12:32 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
C.Y. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
They are all winners in my book. MA, if your kid is one of those girls, you should be proud of her. Why cares about the ranking by the judges?

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#1277282 - 09/29/09 12:39 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mrs.A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 155
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


You go Piano Dad. We rarely see you get your dander up. You usually the voice of reason and the peace maker here.!

My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.
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#1277287 - 09/29/09 12:48 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Mrs.A]
Mrs.A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 155
Originally Posted By: Mrs.A
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


You go Piano Dad. We rarely see you get your dander up. You usually the voice of reason and the peace maker here.!

My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.


That was strange, my statement didn't print in the above post.

You go Piano Dad. Rarely do we see you get your dander up. You are usually the voice of reason.

This post has been disturbing from the beginning.
_________________________
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Church Music Director.
Kindermusik Instructor.
Mom to four boys.


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#1277352 - 09/29/09 02:02 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Betty Patnude]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
MA,

Have you dropped away from the topic?

It would be helpful if you verified whether you had posted the videos or not. And, have we missed something that you think is important for us to know?


If I answered No, then I'd be asked "Who posted it then?" And the next question would be "What's your relationship to that person?" So I won't get into this.

It really doesn't matter whether I posted it. How many times have people linked to YouTube videos without questioning whether they were posted legally? Are they just as guilty?

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#1277364 - 09/29/09 02:21 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
If the videos are on YouTube and you're able to embed them, then nothing "wrong" legally has happened.
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#1277376 - 09/29/09 02:37 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: C.Y.]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: C.Y.
They are all winners in my book. MA, if your kid is one of those girls, you should be proud of her. Why cares about the ranking by the judges?



I could care less. I was just curious. Art is subjective. That's why I really like to know what the judges were thinking, but it's impossible unless I know them in person.

This competition is unique in that it's the only one that I know of (at least in Northern Calif.) that publishes specific instructions on the difficulty of repertoire. So how would the judges choose? The child who plays a piece that's x% more difficult but y% less perfect than another child or vice versa?

With the diverse vocal members of this forum, I was hoping to learn what the experts would listen for and the thinking behind their possibly different rankings. Unfortunately, we are caught up in the debate of something else.

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#1277378 - 09/29/09 02:41 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: eweiss]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: eweiss
If the videos are on YouTube and you're able to embed them, then nothing "wrong" legally has happened.


By "guilty" I meant in the ethical sense but not the legal sense as it clearly is legal.

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#1277384 - 09/29/09 02:51 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: kevinb]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Anyway, it seems to me that there are enough parents who are unhappy about images of their kids being circulated -- for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly -- that I'd be reluctant to do so without their approval. For me, it seems a matter of courtesy more than one of ethics.


I agree. Maybe I will remove the links as it seems that no more people will care or dare to rank the performances.

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#1277430 - 09/29/09 04:06 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: MA]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
MA,

Now you tell us:
"With the diverse vocal members of this forum, I was hoping to learn what the experts would listen for and the thinking behind their possibly different rankings. Unfortunately, we are caught up in the debate of something else."

Did you ever say this before?
You might have had a different reaction.

MA: "Maybe I will remove the links as it seems that no more people will care or dare to rank the performances."

Now that you are going to remove the links, I would think of that as a self-protective step to take.

I don't think much gets by past the piano teachers forum. We are very diverse and can be opinionated to various degrees depending upon the complexity or difficulty of a problem. The ethics of situations are important to a lot of us.


Edited by Betty Patnude (09/29/09 04:07 PM)

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#1278038 - 09/30/09 02:46 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Betty Patnude]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
MA,

Now you tell us:
"With the diverse vocal members of this forum, I was hoping to learn what the experts would listen for and the thinking behind their possibly different rankings. Unfortunately, we are caught up in the debate of something else.".


I was simply responding to C.Y.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

Did you ever say this before?
You might have had a different reaction.


Yes, but maybe not in so many words. I am not a verbose person.

If I were a teacher and always questioned a student or the parent’s motive behind a question and assumed the worst intent I could imagine before even considering answering it, then I probably shouldn’t be a teacher. A teacher’s job is to teach, not preach.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
MA: "Maybe I will remove the links as it seems that no more people will care or dare to rank the performances."

Now that you are going to remove the links, I would think of that as a self-protective step to take.


“Self-protective” from what? I wouldn’t worry even if I had videotaped it and posted it on YouTube myself. I have worked with various lawyers specializing in different areas, and it doesn’t surprise me anymore when someone thinks he knows the law when he actually has very little understanding of it.

BTW, I didn’t say I would remove the links. I said maybe. As a courtesy.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
I don't think much gets by past the piano teachers forum. We are very diverse and can be opinionated to various degrees depending upon the complexity or difficulty of a problem. The ethics of situations are important to a lot of us.


You may be highly ethical, but it doesn’t mean other people are less ethical. Take abortion. Who’s more ethical? The pro-life people or the pro-choice ones. Or those who don’t take a stand. I have paid people I had to lay off way more than required by law while others pay just the minimum, which sometimes amounts to nothing, but I don’t think they are less ethical. I try to not judge people because I would be the one being judged.

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#1278040 - 09/30/09 02:51 PM Re: You be the judge [Re: Piano*Dad]
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: MA
Do you have a daughter? Did you send her to a public competition? Did she win a prize? Did her performance got posted on YouTube?

If your answer is No to any of these questions, then the shoes ain't fit.


Whether or not Kriesler has a daughter who has experienced these things is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not the shoes fit (or ain't).


My comment wasn't even directed at Kriesler, so what's your point?


I meant Phlebas, not Kreisler. You said it with reference to him. The point remains, however. The fact that he does not have a daughter in the competition is irrelevant to whether or not he can empathize ...except perhaps your little world where you simply seem to want to fight and troll.

Folks, this is indeed turning into a trolling session.


In my little world I have worked in different countries with peoples of different cultures and seen first hand what you can’t even imagine in your world, and too often I got in trouble when I put myself in someone else’s shoes. It got us in this whole mess we have now in the Middle East because we had thought that the people there would love us if we “liberate” them and give them “democracy”. I’d rather live in my little world than having a small mind.

I never start a fight but always finishes one. If I wanted a fight, I’d at least fight it on my own and not call for reinforcement.

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