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If you were one of the judges who "are instructed not to reward a contestant who is struggling (however heroically) with a too-difficult piece" how would you rank them?

Nocturne in C# minor

Grande Valse brillante in A minor

Fantaisie-Impromptu in C# minor

Nocturne in E-flat

What is this? The Little Chinese Girl Piano Competition?

I think you can call it that, but some of the girls don't look like Chinese to me.

MA,

I was at this competition and I know who won and everything.
But are you going to judge and criticize these kids in this public forum? I really hope you got permission from these contestants and parents. I would not feel comfortable if you post my child's video in this way.

iam is right. I think you should have got their parent's consent.

This is kind of interesting, from the perspective of ethics and legalities. Was viewing the competition open to the public? Were restrictions placed on videoing the event? If not, I'm not so sure anyone has grounds to complain. Event organizers need to be comprehensive in stating NO RECORDING/VIDEO and no reproduction/use of any program material without written consent of the organization.

If I had to guess, I'd say this wasn't done and as there are no identifiers on the youtube videos except the implication that it might have taken place in the SF Bay Area, it may be a foul, but nothing more. By the way, nice Hamburg Steinway!

First, I should say that I think that's an odd instruction. The only thing that matters to me when I'm judging is how enjoyable the music is. A person who plays the Fantasie-Impromptu might have an advantage over the Eb Major nocturne, but it's not because of the difficulty level, it's because there's a greater range of texture and technique in the Impromptu. Regardless, I don't think it's much of an issue in this competition, because none of the competitors seem to be playing anything that's "too difficult" for them. They each handle their repertoire very well.

Also, it's a bit odd putting 7 year olds in a competition with 9 year olds. Developmentally speaking, there's a HUGE difference between those two age groups.

For what it's worth, my personal ranking is:

Grande Valse Brillante in A minor
Fantasie-Impromptu
Nocturne in Eb Major
Nocturne in C# minor

My guess is that the actual results put the Fantasie-Impromptu first and Eb Major nocturne 2nd, but it just sorta depends on the judge's personal criteria. I hear some things in the Valse that are rather interesting, even though it's not as impressive a piece as the impromptu.

That being said, the big question in my mind is why are we being asked? I see a few possibilities:

1) Curiosity. If this is the case, then you have my ranking and are free to disagree or agree. That's the nature of competitions, nobody is ever happy with the results, and this is one of the reasons a lot of people dislike judging. It's also why I think a lot of pianists never post on internet forums - no matter what you say, you're going to catch a lot of disagreement and discontent.

2) Seeking Justification for the Actual Results. If you're looking for a poll to justify the results of the competition, then give up now. This isn't American Idol. Art is subjective, get used it.

3) Seeking to Refute the Actual Results. If you're looking for a poll to refute or invalidate the actual results of the competition, then give up now. This isn't American Idol. Art is subjective, get used to it.

Well said, John! It was open to public, and more than one spectator, parents or not, were video taping as the organizer didn't prohibit it.

Just curious as I don't know any of the girls. Also want to find out if the judges might have favored more difficult pieces as I might enter my children in the future.

This was the 9 and under age group. That's why you see 7-8 yo competing against 9 yo.

Well, there are also cases when the judges are completely STUPID and pick the WRONG winners, while giving the most deserving students NOTHING. Organizers of such events are responsible for hiring intelligent, fair, and disinterested judges with the highest artistic integrity. Judges with ulterior motives need to be removed from future competitions. Furthermore, judges who write condescending, scathing, and ridiculous comments should also be removed from future competitions.

Art is subjective, but in classical music there are clear standards of taste and objective "correctness." It's not that difficult to discern good playing from bad playing. The difficulty lies in discerning "shades" or "levels" of good playing.

I'll take a look at the videos...

Interesting videos.

I don't think the public forum is a good place to discuss these videos, so I will withhold my thoughts.

There are similar competitions in SoCal, and most of them don't prohibit videotaping of any kind. But to me it does seem wrong to post them without the kids' parents' permission.

John and MA,

OK. This competition was open to public and I don't recall they prohibited recording. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am assuming this is recorded by one parent (MA herself?)and published to Youtube without anyone's permission. I know this organization very well and they did not record this for sure.

Probably, this is not legal issue but to me ethical one. This means anyone can videotape any child in any open recitals/competitions and publish it to public for critique?

I raised the issue as a red flag to teachers. Public means public and what you do in public is public. If it were a private recital, then we'd be discussing different issues.

Actually, I'm happy this came up now, as I am co-chairing a recital in just 5 weeks, and videography and recording is always an issue. I will probably bring this to our chapter and tell them that unless they agree to have a printed and announced restriction on photography of one's own students, and no posting on open forums, etc., etc.

I too think it is inappropriate to videotape young people without their family's permission and then to post the results to the web.

I don't disagree with you, but that matters little. From what I see on the news, tv in general, and all over the internet, if you do it in public, you're probably being watched and it will be posted somewhere. Teachers need to be aware of this, and take steps to insure students' privacy.

I'd certainly like to know more about how these videos were made, and if permission from the kids parents were given, to both video them and post them on YouTube.

I have a daughter, and if anyone posted a video of her on YouTube - despite the fact that "the organizers didn't prohibit it" -I would go after them.

A little more information, please.

Phlebas, what do you think the net result would be? Do you feel your case would win? Would it be a Pyrrhic victory? What if the court sided with the videographer/poster? Would you pull your daughter from public performances? How much money would you be willing to spend defending your child's right to privacy at a public event? Is there such a right?

I certainly don't know the answers to these questions, but we teachers better be aware that parents have strong feelings on these issues and with the ease of video recording, better take steps to protect ourselves from litigation.

The laws regarding the posting of video and pictures on the internet are extremely vague and confusing. I did some searching regarding release forms, public performance, etc., and there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. Furthermore, the laws change from state to state, so what's acceptable in California may not be in other states and vice versa.

Another thought I had - even the parents weren't told that the competition was being recorded, there are microphones dangling from the ceiling right in front of the piano and the camera was obviously a nice, high definition camera. How could they not have known?

In a way, I think it's very unfortunate that performances like these never get discussed. I posted my ranking hoping someone would agree or disagree, thus starting a discussion on what to listen for in competitions involving young pianists. Nobody seems interested. Is judging doomed to remain a mysterious, capriciously subjective activity. How does one choose judges? What makes one person a better judge than another? The way most judges are picked for things like these are by word of mouth. Pianists are deemed qualified if they are college faculty have a graduate degree in music, and yet no graduate program in piano I know of includes any instruction or study of the adjudication process.

In most organizations (like churches, for instance), if the kids go on an outing sponsored by the organization and photos are taken of them that might be used anywhere in the organization's publicity, they ask for a release form to be signed granting permission for incidental usage of the child's photos. This suggests that the default position is that the family's privacy is primary and the photographer's use of images is secondary. I don't know if the analogy holds here, but I suspect these families signed no release forms permitting images to be used by other parties. In the absence of a signed release it is at least possible that unauthorized use of their children's images may be a violation of their privacy. The fact that the performance was pubic may or may not change this. If the sponsoring organization did NOT get a signed release from the family, that fact may be binding on others. In other words a videographer might legally have to obtain the permission of the organization (which already had the permission of the family) in order to make a video of the competition.

Kreisler,

If MA made the recordings using a nice camera, that does not at all suggest that the parents must have known she was doing it. Suppose the sponsoring organization itself was making a beautiful HD recording, and the parents knew, then the issue is whether or not the parents granted permission (or needed to grant permission) to the organization to use those images for public presentation. I suspect most parents would sign off on that because their interests and the organization's interests most likely are aligned. It's something else for some unknown person to record the performances and then to use them for whatever they like, all without permission. That person's interests and the families' interests may not at all be aligned.