Hi Bill,

I´m very into trying your ideas, mainly because they sound musical, secondly because they come with these wonderfully hands-on 'user manuals'

Now that I feel I have atleast some control over the ET temperament F3-F4, I'm eager to try your EBVT1 and III out. Just like you stated I´m sure I tune ET but end up with diffence in keycolors, but I'd like to be able to do that in a controlled manner, get a constant, suttle personality out of the diffent keys signatures. I was comforted when I read an earlier reply about EDT and aural tuning of the EBVT, and you answered that the EBVT is simple to tune aurally, and that you prefer that method yourself.

Here are my questions:
1) In expanding the temperament up-and downwards using your mindless octaves method, how do you handle the upper and lower extremes of the piano?

To me, most of them are hard to hear by comparing the double octave and the 12th (from the top note). Frankly, in the both outer octaves, I have go by ear, trying to retain the same feeling as in octaves closer to the center.

2) This should throw one of the most used checks out the window, right? That is, the inside-outside test (outside M6-inside M3 whole step up from the lower note). The tests for 2:1, 4:2 and 6:3 octaves seem to work with your method to.

Now, are there any other checks (besides the cromatic 12ths successivly played up or down) that might be of special interest here?

Regards,
Patrick

Bill,

I would like to add another question (maybe the most crucial). I Once I get C3-F5 set, I should be able to use you "octave tempering" ie "mindless octaves" by practicing it (in fact, I already do those in ET)

But the EBVT is a different story. How should I go about to expand the temperament down from F3 to C3, and from F4 up to F5?

In ET i do it by using the 5th, the 4th and the octave, with RPI checks M3 M6 to show smooth progressivity. But I feel totally helpless in EBVT. The intervals progress unevenly in both directions, so where should I hold ground, that is - what would be my main reference.

Right now, after I few tries, I have a feeling that
(after setting the F3-F4 EBVT temperament) i start to compromise my way down to C3 and up to C5 (or F5) (comparing 4ths, 5ths and octaves) But these should not be uniform in EBVT, or did I miss something important here? Shold i use the equal beating of 5ths and octaves below the tune note? Wouldn't this depart from the idea and throw in an well-accustomed ET replica for those passes.

The reason I'm bother you with these questions is that I'd like to learn the EBVT to take it up for a test drive very soon:

In my piano studio att the Conservatory, I have access to almost identical grands (one Yamaha C2, one G2). I'd like to tune one ET, one EBVT without telling the students. Then have a blindfold test and see what feedback are given. Before I can do that I have to practice to get it right. I plan on using the mildest of them that is the EBVTIII.

Any suggestions from you, Bill, and from other mentors out there, would be both highly appreciated and also directly needed. The pianos should be tuned this week, and if nothing happens I have to go for ET x 2.

Regrads, pati

Patrick:

If you do some searching (I would do it for you but am a bit busy) you may find your answers in past Topics. Bill uses mindless octaves for EBVTs.

Jeff,

yes i do know about the equal beating 12ths and double octaves. But before you get there, that is, until you´ve got big enough of the midrange tuned to be able to use the double octave as a reference - should you just use equal beating 5ths and octaves? Or am I missing something.

Patrick:

Maybe you are missing something. There are many ways to look at anything.

The way I look at mindless octaves is as a triangle. One side is the P12, one side the P15, and the final side is the P4. It is the beat rate of the P4 that determines the beat rates of the P12 and P15. This is only true when the common note of the P12 and P15 is the upper one. (Consider what partials are involved and what tests are available for these intervals.)

But what you are wondering may be what I have also wondered: Sure, you can tune a mindless octave given any P4, but how do you make all the intervals progressive? I am afraid that for true ET it is always necessary to estimate! In this case you know that you want the P15 to be wide and the P12 to be narrow. In the mid-section tuning 2:1 octaves will not do this, neither will 6:3 octaves. Tuning 4:2 octaves will do this, but they probably can be a little wide. If a particular note when tuned for a mindless octave creates unprogressive M6s or M10s, then you would have to go back and make adjustments.